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Halo Infinite Discussion

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8 minutes ago, xSociety said:

There will be more players on PC than the PS5 could dream of. 

This doesn't exactly counter this statement, but I thought it was interesting bit of information.

From the Apple vs Epic case going on right now it was found the PS4 almost doubles any other platform for revenue for Fortnite at 47% from March 2018 to July 2020. Xbox in second with 24%. PC, Switch, and Android get lumped into one category at 19%. Revenue obviously isn't a population counter, plus its only a single game, doesn't mean its the same across the board.

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6 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

An extra paddle or button on the bottom of the controller that I shouldn't need but do anyways because they hate us lol. If we're being real the classic controller design with face buttons is actually kind of terrible when the thumbs need to stay on the sticks. Not really sure why buttons or paddles on the bottom aren't just the new default design 

So true. I have found with some modern games in general that controllers as they are now are starting to run out of room. Even just two built-in "paddles" of some kind on the back would do so much in terms of ease of control. 

With a lot of third person action games (Sekiro, Fallen Order) for instance, you end up using the d-pad way more than you should be if you had a controller that actually made sense for the type of inputs that are required. Really is a shame that neither console manufacturer took the opportunity of the new generation to add in some dedicated paddles. 

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2 hours ago, NAK said:

So true. I have found with some modern games in general that controllers as they are now are starting to run out of room. Even just two built-in "paddles" of some kind on the back would do so much in terms of ease of control. 

With a lot of third person action games (Sekiro, Fallen Order) for instance, you end up using the d-pad way more than you should be if you had a controller that actually made sense for the type of inputs that are required. Really is a shame that neither console manufacturer took the opportunity of the new generation to add in some dedicated paddles. 

They dont add them so they make more $$. 

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One of my major gripes with the halo campaigns is that they never force you to make decisions. They have a bunch of weapons that are admittedly pretty fun to mess around with, but you can get through the entire mission with just a plasma pistol, br and the occasional power weapon.

That is why I'm excited about damage types. Seems like they could make for some great encounters if executed right. 

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4 hours ago, hvs500 said:

One of my major gripes with the halo campaigns is that they never force you to make decisions. They have a bunch of weapons that are admittedly pretty fun to mess around with, but you can get through the entire mission with just a plasma pistol, br and the occasional power weapon.

That is why I'm excited about damage types. Seems like they could make for some great encounters if executed right. 

For me, Halo is one of the few games I went through multiple times (Halo 1,3 and ODST mostly). And it's because the different ways how you can approach the encounters. It's never exactly the same. So it's weird to me to hear this. New elements in sandbox are always welcome but for me, Halo was always the prime example how fun and diverse the FPS shooter can be. You may not be forced to take the decision, but the different approaches comes naturally. Especially some of the encounters, like that huge valley in Assault on the control room with turrets, Wraiths, hunters and invisible elites are fantastic. Never the same. I just hope the AI will be good. It's just baffling that CE had the best AI and they went downwards eversince. Prime example how hardware is not as much important as they making us think so. CE is such a fantastic game in so many ways. God I need to play it again.

Edit. There is one more thing I want to point out. We are in times, where in almost every game they want to implement some RPG elements. Like upgrades, talent trees, quests and such. This is not always a good thing. Not every game needs to be RPG. I would go as far as to say that RPG elements, in some cases can limit the fun, because they make you play specific way. Whereas in halo, a sandbox shooter you could say, you have all kind of possibilities from the get go. There are no limits in what upgrades, talents you (don't) have. It's just pure arcade fun. Breath of the wild is another fantastic example. Just go out and have instant fun, be creative.

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4 hours ago, Hemlax said:

times, where in almost every game they want to implement some RPG elements. Like upgrades, talent trees, quests and such. This is not always a good thing. Not every game needs to be RPG. I would go as far as to say that RPG elements, in some cases can limit the fun, because they make you play specific way. Whereas in halo, a sandbox shooter you could say, you have all kind of possibilities from the get go. There are no limits in what upgrades, talents you (don't) have. It's just pure arcade fun. Breath of the wild is another fantastic example. Just go out and have instant fun, be creative.

The thing is it’s a lot easier to provide more options Witt rpg elements. Leaves room to add something to grind for, which I would debate is one way games survive. In past halo campaigns you just go through the mission and you’re done go to MP. With some RPG aspects they could easily extend the game in more ways than one without jeopardizing what makes the core game fun 

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Halo's PvE allows for a multitude of approaches to a single encounter. This is by itself is a good thing, but not when the cause is that the sandbox is too homogeneous, or that the enemy AI/Competence is nonexistent, or that the encounter itself is way too easy. 

Likewise, Halo also has several excellent encounters where it forces the player to use a specific set of weapons or vehicles. Truth and Reconciliation, The Library, AotCR, Two Betrayals, etc. These demand a specific type of and level of skill from the player, whether it be shooting precise long-range rockets with no guidance, or efficiently nading + sniping files of Covenant enemies as they drop down in rapid succession from a ship. 

The key lies in specifically tailoring map geometry, enemy behavior, and encounter design to complement the weapons sandbox in such a way that certain weapon selections are viable, provided the player adopt the appropriate playstyle for said weapon selection and is met with a consistent difficulty level. 

For example, a section you may intend to be completed with a sniper rifle and a pistol could be designed to be completed with a shotgun and a plasma rifle. However, you'd have to make the necessary changes to geometry and enemy composition so that it wouldn't become impossibly difficult or laughably easy. 

You can't make an encounter for every weapon selection, nor can you ever have a weapon wheel in Halo PvE - for this reason. You'll quickly find that any level of difficulty you wanted to tailor your game to, is flying out the window. You can't design an encounter where the player uses an SMG and a needler, to be equally difficult with a rocket launcher and a shotgun, or a beam rifle and a flamethrower. 

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I would like RPG elements to be like find $$ or get points and you can purchase req weapons or vehicles, maybe buy some marines or ODST and the highest points would be a Spartan. I’d also like something similar to shadow of war where’s there’s fortresses you can capture. Give me some sort of halo wars vibe where I can assign units to certain areas to capture. And the banished trying to stop or re capture eventually. There’s so much they can do with this open world environment without having rpg elements like a a level 22 grunt and a level 14 grunt. However they can have certain missions be normal to legendary based on difficulty and grabbing yourself some ODSTS could make the mission a bit easier. 

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12 hours ago, Hemlax said:

For me, Halo is one of the few games I went through multiple times (Halo 1,3 and ODST mostly). And it's because the different ways how you can approach the encounters. It's never exactly the same. So it's weird to me to hear this. New elements in sandbox are always welcome but for me, Halo was always the prime example how fun and diverse the FPS shooter can be. You may not be forced to take the decision, but the different approaches comes naturally. Especially some of the encounters, like that huge valley in Assault on the control room with turrets, Wraiths, hunters and invisible elites are fantastic. Never the same. I just hope the AI will be good. It's just baffling that CE had the best AI and they went downwards eversince. Prime example how hardware is not as much important as they making us think so. CE is such a fantastic game in so many ways. God I need to play it again.

I do agree that the halo campaigns are diverse, but they never force you to utilise their sandbox. While it's good that  the campaigns allow for multiple approaches to be viable, my problem is that you are almost never required to shake up your strategies, and if you do, that's out of curiosity most of the time.  I believe that the halo games have some brilliant encounters that do force you to make decisions, but they are far and few.

 Doom eternal too has a diverse and creative sandbox, but the difference is that in doom, you are constantly shuffling your weapons and changing your strategies. You can't go through an entire mission with just a single weapon. That's a good thing, because now the player is forced to make decisions. 

12 hours ago, Hemlax said:

 

Edit. There is one more thing I want to point out. We are in times, where in almost every game they want to implement some RPG elements. Like upgrades, talent trees, quests and such. This is not always a good thing. Not every game needs to be RPG. I would go as far as to say that RPG elements, in some cases can limit the fun, because they make you play specific way. Whereas in halo, a sandbox shooter you could say, you have all kind of possibilities from the get go. There are no limits in what upgrades, talents you (don't) have. It's just pure arcade fun. Breath of the wild is another fantastic example. Just go out and have instant fun, be creative.

I find this especially true for weapon upgrades. They don't jive well with a sandbox shooter, because they make you favour one weapon over the other.

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RPG elements sound like a bad idea in any ideal classic Halo campaign. The whole point of a Halo campaign is to have the player(s) make efficient use of the resources available to them. This is with the most charitable interpretation of "RPG" - static classes the player can choose that don't change much over the course of the game. A progression tree is a horrible fucking idea and completely out of the question. 

Adding RPG elements just weighs down on the sandbox focus, and changes the idea of the game into something fundamentally different. It becomes less about "How do I navigate through this encounter with what I have available", more about "How do I use the ability/abilities my class has to maximum effect". A progression tree has good intentions, to make player progression directly meaningful to gameplay. The problem is, it inherently lends itself to inconsistent difficulty scaling and it's kind of redundant, because there's much more natural ways to have player gameplay decisions have longer lasting effects. 

It's not inherently bad tbh, but I wouldn't include it in a default campaign. A DLC with it would be fun to see. Maybe it allows you to choose one of several specialist Elite ranks. 

Sorry about the textwall replies btw

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In most games, rocking that "open world RPG" wave, what we get is a mediocre, repetitive mix of quest, shallow RPG progression and mediocre story. Games that are trying to be everything and fail at everything. With experience and record 343 has, we are getting exactly that I would say.

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I wouldn't mind a Far Cry approach, but with a Mega Man spin.  The "scouting report" for this mission says it is likely to feature X enemy with Y weakness, so if I finish this mission over here first that awards Z weapon if I complete it, I can use that to make my life a little easier. Far Cry and Ghost Recon: Wildlands didn't distinguish the missions from one another well enough by tying meaningful completion rewards to the missions. Letting players unlock things in any order they choose is a mistake that makes missions blur together. Even if they didn't want to tie a specific unlock to a mission, Wildlands could have still awarded a specific type of resource for completing certain missions. That way, if I really want that drone upgrade, I should probably do that mission that awards a ton of tech resources so I can afford it.

My problem with open world shooters like Far Cry or Ghost Recon Wildlands was that the difficulty and enemy variety didn't scale enough as your character grew stronger. You still fought the same enemies with the same capabilities, but you were much better equipped. As a result, the first 10 hours of those games are invariably the funnest, and by the end it feels like busy work because you've leveled your way out of any meaningful challenge. 

Hell, you can make huge parts of the game irrelevant by just unlocking certain things. In Far Cry 5, every vehicle becomes useless once you unlock the wingsuit and the ability to air-drop in when you fast travel. If the game can keep every aspect of itself relevant for the duration of the game, and make your upgrades useful without making the endgame tediously easy, then I would love to see it. But that requires a level of discipline, enemy variety, and difficulty that I have yet to see in the genre.

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On 4/17/2021 at 1:18 AM, _Synapse said:

Hey I know that TTK is probably the biggest reason that Halo's gameplay has been in the relative gutter in recent years, but can we please stop having the exact same argument for the 9000000000th time? Especially when there's a correct opinion. 

Going back to what I said about "too high" minimum-average TTK delta: let's assume that the accuracy distribution for an average player with a utility weapon  (The H3 BR, for example) is a normal distribution that peaks at 5.5 bursts (roughly 1.9 seconds). Then, that means that roughly 12% of the average player's kills will be perfect 4SKs. 

Making the same assumption for a pro / semi-pro level, let's assume that the average aim distribution peaks at 5 bursts. This means that an average pro / semi-pro will earn perfect 4SKs almost 25% of the time. 

If an ideal utility weapon's minimum-average delta is too high, then the game will effectively revert into a crapshoot at both skill tiers (think people trying to play Pit Flag, except that their primary weapon is a sniper rifle that can only be noscoped with). 

Then again, this would facilitate tremendous player growth in the long run. The game's meta would evolve like none other with the passage of time. The main issue it causes then, is the fact that it would become far too unenjoyable at the average level and those players would drop the game before their skill improved. 

To be frank, I'm liking the idea of a skill intermediary utility weapon more and more. 

Right, I was going to reply to this, but I've been busy. Good post.

An increase in TTK should be due to a enemy players intentional actions to increase it, not input difficulty. That scales TTK with player skill. Bad players will be easy to hit, but hit less. Good players are hard to hit, but hit more.

The above is achieved with easy inputs, with powerful effects. So strong aim assist, but base movement that counters it when intentionally moving well. Projectile travel time has the same effect. And a weapon that has enough damage per shot and time between shots for a "dodge" to be meaningful is needed.

Thrust might seemingly fulfill that, except it barely has a failure state. It's powerful boost just adds +1 bullets to kill when used at almost any level of play.

Pit with nocscope snipers wouldn't be a crapshoot if aiming it even vs someone walking in a straight line wasn't hard. Then at a high level, you have powerful acceleration and top speed that lets good players dodge bullets by being unpredictable. 

It's all about creating the ability to flex interesting skills, while mitigating the difficulty of execution that creates both deep and accessible games.

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3 hours ago, potetr said:

between shots for a "dodge" to be meaningful.

 

I’d say apex legends is a good example of this with fast strafing where you cam dodge  shots. 

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Wouldn't bullets slow enough to dodge technically be randomness? I mean think about it, if the enemy presses buttons he doesn't get shot, if he doesn't then he's over. You can't do much about it besides hoping that the guy doesn't move out of way. Isn't that randomness?

 Or let's say you're in an open field and you have your gun pointed at the guy who's not looking at you. Now, I see two possible outcomes to this scenario both of which are not exactly in your control, or even the enemy's control. He doesn't know that you're shooting at him, if he "dodges" your bullet it's basically because of luck. Similarly, you hitting the guy also largely depends on luck. Isn't that randomness?

I'm not fully opposed to the idea as I'm a believer of counterplay, but it's really something to think about. 

EDIT: Come to think of it, wouldn't slow bullets inadvertently lower the skill gap? Because now you don't have to aim at a specific area to hit the enemy, you just have to aim at his general area and you'll only have a chance of hitting him.

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41 minutes ago, hvs500 said:

Wouldn't bullets slow enough to dodge technically be randomness? I mean think about it, if the enemy presses buttons he doesn't get shot, if he doesn't then he's over. You can't do much about it besides hoping that the guy doesn't move out of way. Isn't that randomness?

 Or let's say you're in an open field and you have your gun pointed at the guy who's not looking at you. Now, I see two possible outcomes to this scenario both of which are not exactly in your control, or even the enemy's control. He doesn't know that you're shooting at him, if he "dodges" your bullet it's basically because of luck. Similarly, you hitting the guy also largely depends on luck. Isn't that randomness?

I'm not fully opposed to the idea as I'm a believer of counterplay, but it's really something to think about. 

EDIT: Come to think of it, wouldn't slow bullets inadvertently lower the skill gap? Because now you don't have to aim at a specific area to hit the enemy, you just have to aim at his general area and you'll only have a chance of hitting him.

Apex and cod have no issue with moving before they hit 

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2 hours ago, hvs500 said:

Wouldn't bullets slow enough to dodge technically be randomness? I mean think about it, if the enemy presses buttons he doesn't get shot, if he doesn't then he's over. You can't do much about it besides hoping that the guy doesn't move out of way. Isn't that randomness?

 Or let's say you're in an open field and you have your gun pointed at the guy who's not looking at you. Now, I see two possible outcomes to this scenario both of which are not exactly in your control, or even the enemy's control. He doesn't know that you're shooting at him, if he "dodges" your bullet it's basically because of luck. Similarly, you hitting the guy also largely depends on luck. Isn't that randomness?

I'm not fully opposed to the idea as I'm a believer of counterplay, but it's really something to think about. 

EDIT: Come to think of it, wouldn't slow bullets inadvertently lower the skill gap? Because now you don't have to aim at a specific area to hit the enemy, you just have to aim at his general area and you'll only have a chance of hitting him.

Player movement isn't as random as you're imagining it. It's actually reasonably predictable. That's why the idea of projectile bullets and leading your shots works great in various games. A guy who isn't aware of you isn't going to randomly do a 180. And it's not a general area, you're aiming at a specific point slightly ahead of the direction they're moving (or further ahead depending on distance).

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So how do we really think the fight against modding will go with Halo Infinite? In their blog it seems like they have some ideas but after having some guy modding in H3 last night it made me reconsider how its happening constantly in other games like warzone as well. Could easily be the unexpected reason Infinite struggles 

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48 minutes ago, Killmachine said:

Infinite being a service game makes me think modding will never become a thing

I probably should've used the word hacking instead but I wasn't thinking. I don't mean the innocent and fun kind lol

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Prediction time:

- Infinite will be a decent game, but not a great game on launch.
- It will echo OG Halo but not compare with it.
- The fact that it's free to play and crossplay will make a nice playerbase on launch.
- Anyone expecting OG Halo will be disappointed, people going in with an open mind to a new experience with no regard to OG Halo may be pleased.
- I will probably like it.

Note: I have no problems changing any of these predictions once multiplayer is revealed.

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25 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Prediction time:

- Infinite will be a decent game, but not a great game on launch.
- It will echo OG Halo but not compare with it.
- The fact that it's free to play and crossplay will make a nice playerbase on launch.
- Anyone expecting OG Halo will be disappointed, people going in with an open mind to a new experience with no regard to OG Halo may be pleased.
- I will probably like it.

Note: I have no problems changing any of these predictions once multiplayer is revealed.

My impressions from reading their blogs and the small amount of gameplay that we've seen are that the game will probably take a significant step away from Halo 5 mechanically in the direction of the original trilogy. So I expect something more along the lines of Reach or Halo 4 in terms of the mobility I'm seeing during most matches. Obviously they could surprise us all and people will be climbing walls and shit 24/7 and the video was bait but I don't expect to be seeing someone stabilizing a ground pound or thrusting to top mid on Midship again. I do expect some sprinting and clambering along with hell on earth in default settings when it comes to equipment. I felt like the Infinite we did see was maybe the take on Halo 4 we should've gotten the first time if that's really the direction they wanted. Basically a continuation of Halo 3 and the original trilogy thematically with some combination of equipment and Reach armor abilities done in a (hopefully) better way. You can definitely see someone is playing legos with the various "pieces" of what made a lot of different Halo titles. It feels like someone decided on a reboot but instead of starting from Halo CE they started after Halo 3 ended

I'm definitely a purist when it comes to the original trilogy vs new stuff. I do not want sprint or any armor abilities or whatever so its not really what I want ideally but compared to Halo 5 this game so far has been much more appealing. The one thing I would really like 343 to do is to take that reboot idea a step further and take all of their ideas of a USNC factory or whatever for multiplayer areas and throw them away for all time. Its so ugly when they do it and I've seen them come out a lot cleaner with some of the forerunner/og Halo vibes in Infinite scenery. It actually blows my mind that you could have such a rich and varied selection of locales to choose from when designing multiplayer maps and then they show me some half eroded and abandoned human factory as the setting. 343 please you're a sci-fi game with aliens and space stop

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I'm perplexed by the 'Infinite will echo OG halo/Infinite is mechanically moving in the direction of the original trilogy' comments. Unless you're referring to a less linear campaign?

Advanced movement is the major mechanical difference between modern and OG Halo. I'm predicting Infinite's multiplayer will be no different than Halo 5. 

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MTX in infinite I’m hoping to see bundles like cod where certain guns have colored bullet tracers. I love those in cod. 
im definitely expecting a lighter h5 so a hybrid of 5 and 4. I would hope for a classic playlist. Hopefully forge is really good and h5 forge was epic AF so infinite has a standard to fulfil 

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4 hours ago, Aphex Twin said:

I'm perplexed by the 'Infinite will echo OG halo/Infinite is mechanically moving in the direction of the original trilogy' comments. Unless you're referring to a less linear campaign?

Advanced movement is the major mechanical difference between modern and OG Halo. I'm predicting Infinite's multiplayer will be no different than Halo 5. 

I think thrust will be a major differentiating factor between H5 and Infinite. Thrust changes everything from basic traversal to nearly every single combat encounter (even the Grenade explosion radius). If Infinite is only sprint, slide, and clamber as base mechanics, I would argue that it is more of a modern echo of OG Halo. I just hope that, at least in multiplayer, sprint is a neutered as possible, the majority of jumps aren't built around clamber, and slide isn't something that needs to be constantly used. If that is even mostly the case I think it can be a really enjoyable game, even if not ideal. 

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