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Halo Infinite Discussion

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1 hour ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Yes and no.

You can hop into something quick and easy, without need of customizing what you're wanting, or go into detail and specifics and search it out through a list. Problems begin when you're slapped with too many options in the Match Make, or not enough with Browser. Interestingly enough, the Composer in MCC fixes most of these issues that stem from strict MM or Server games. Adding a few Ranked playlists and a Custom Server Browser with mod support, and you pretty much solve all population problems for a good while.

Here’s the problem with server browsers though. From my experience in them the average one is some goofy shit. Not official settings. In most games I’ve played that had a server browser and that includes halo custom edition if you wanted a 4v4 or 2v2 then good luck. You over estimate the desire for mod support. You think(assumption) people will play modded game types and maps suited for more competitive play but really it’s the chaotic shit with no sense of balance or rules. 

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H2 Vista is a good example of a Halo custom browser and H5 proved it. I could find a serious game once in awhile but really I was just dropping killimanjaros on people in 8v8 Lockout 2 flag snipers. Much like Halo 5 just had people only assassinating lobbies or that castle 8v8 map with the huge bridge

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11 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

H2 Vista is a good example of a Halo custom browser and H5 proved it. I could find a serious game once in awhile but really I was just dropping killimanjaros on people in 8v8 Lockout 2 flag snipers. Much like Halo 5 just had people only assassinating lobbies or that castle 8v8 map with the huge bridge

And right there is the problem with server browsers. Fuck anyone who wants a normal match am I right. If I wanted a normal FFA 8 man that wasn’t BRs/snipers that lasted 20 minutes I couldn’t find it.

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7 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

And right there is the problem with server browsers. Fuck anyone who wants a normal match am I right. If I wanted a normal FFA 8 man that wasn’t BRs/snipers that lasted 20 minutes I couldn’t find it.

I think its fine if people have a browser for meme stuff like that but the browser definitely doesn't replace the need for actual matchmaking on some level. I'm not sure how it would look if you just forced everyone into a browser with no matchmaking at all but it would be a pretty bumpy transition with a lot of pissed off people. They'd have to add servers and support for people to setup their own ladders and track players playing on their servers to basically emulate what the matchmaking hopper does for ranked

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5 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I think its fine if people have a browser for meme stuff like that but the browser definitely doesn't replace the need for actual matchmaking on some level. I'm not sure how it would look if you just forced everyone into a browser with no matchmaking at all but it would be a pretty bumpy transition with a lot of pissed off people. They'd have to add servers and support for people to setup their own ladders and track players playing on their servers to basically emulate what the matchmaking hopper does for ranked

Yeah h2 pc does that and it’s straight trash still. Match composer helps out a lot without providing a unnecessary clutter. 

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11 hours ago, Rdispushedback said:

 

I wouldn't hype Aphex. Especially after he confused himself. I mean who's to say Snipedown Hysteria etc arnt looked at and respected as individual skilled players.

I've played Halo enough to know @Aphex Twinsucks at it.

Have you ever noticed that whenever you see a halo 3 clip the guy always has a sniper. Why is that?

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On 4/16/2021 at 7:58 PM, Snipe Three said:

I honestly think TTK isn't even the main problem with Halo. I'd argue that average kill times have basically been static since 2004 with minor changes. The real problem to me is that the kill speeds and the movement mechanics and whatnot all work together to create an entire game and in recent years the designers haven't respected the pace of Halo and thus they change the movement in this case but not the kill speeds so at that basic level the formula breaks down. They have to respect the pacing of the game they're trying to create and tailor the movement and kill speeds for each other instead of leaving one steady and radically changing the other. We would've been in just as bad of a situation if the average kill speed was way faster in H2/H3 because the rest of those games wouldn't support skillful gameplay. You'd have just been playing something very similar to swat in those games at that point. Obviously the difficulty and the difference between average and perfect matter but if the average kill speed gets too fast for the movement or the movement gets too fast for the average kill speed the game basically stops functioning in a healthy way. They've spent the last few years seeing just how close they can get to that line

The mobility and kill speeds in a game should be a reflection of each other and they're just not in modern Halo. It doesn't stop there either. Things like aim assist, map geometry, respawn timers, power weapon strength etc etc etc all tie back into it. They've been failing at getting that level of cohesion together and that is why modern Halo sucks and can't actually hold a population. Its just not a well made game

A great thought experiment for people would be to think about Halo CE. Like really think about it. Think about the movement, respawn system, average and perfect kill speeds, how powerful rockets are in the sense of blast radius, grenades, how quickly things respawn and the ideal number of players all together as one cohesive game. Now contrast ALL of that with H2 or H3 rather than just one piece. You'll realize that the directions of those differing aspects shift together across the games in a common direction that makes sense because its intentional and not some monkey game designing something new. They knew what they were doing and they were designing towards a goal. It isn't some guy just deciding we can sprint now or just throwing thrust into the mix. They made sure the entire game maintained cohesion as they reinvented it. Now do that with Halo 5. You'll see the problem. Pretty crazy how they thought that you could just leave basically everything the same post H2/H3 but change mobility and maps and expected it to work well huh. They're just trapped between trying to pretend they're Halo 3 and making their own game and it just looks dumb every time.

If 343 wanted to make another H5 my challenge to them would be to actually change more in a logical way. Make the game actually fit together 

I'm really averse to giving Bungie credit for intentional design. These are the same people who designed the sandboxes from H2 - Reach and who thought AR starts were the ideal way to play the game. 

You're right about what you're saying, but your argument adresses something different than mine. 

I'm being a hypocrite by continuing to bring up TTK, but I disagree on it not being the biggest problem. Halo's an FPS, with shooting making up the bulk of gameplay. Everytime I mention TTK, I'm doing it with the implication of skill and minimum-average kill time delta.

Yes, there is a delicate ratio of BMS:TTK that needs to be maintained internally or externally, but the absolute value of TTK is the principal factor in how gunfights feel. The ratio of BMS:TTK being constant doesn't tell us anything about their actual values, just their relative ones. The ratio we should really be factoring in is Average Reaction Time:BMS:TTK. 

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1 hour ago, _Synapse said:

I'm really averse to giving Bungie credit for intentional design. These are the same people who designed the sandboxes from H2 - Reach and who thought AR starts were the ideal way to play the game. 

You're right about what you're saying, but your argument adresses something different than mine. 

I'm being a hypocrite by continuing to bring up TTK, but I disagree on it not being the biggest problem. Halo's an FPS, with shooting making up the bulk of gameplay. Everytime I mention TTK, I'm doing it with the implication of skill and minimum-average kill time delta.

Yes, there is a delicate ratio of BMS:TTK that needs to be maintained internally or externally, but the absolute value of TTK is the principal factor in how gunfights feel. The ratio of BMS:TTK being constant doesn't tell us anything about their actual values, just their relative ones. The ratio we should really be factoring in is Average Reaction Time:BMS:TTK. 

Its not that bungie wasn't intentional which I've seen a lot of people assume. Its just that bungie didn't care about creating some competitive game nor did they try to make one. Its not that they accidentally made a less competitive game. They did it intentionally. There's pretty much no chance that they accidentally kept a cohesive game that made sense pretty much every step of the way but it happened to be less demanding or competitive. They were walking directly away from that type of game on purpose. That's also why you spawned with an AR and some trash tier pistol in all of their games after CE but they still bothered to include the obvious addition (the br) that helped fill the gap left by not having the original CE pistol's role in the sandbox. It takes some pretty deliberate design to both fill that gap in the sandbox but also make sure you don't spawn with it in their game modes. They left those things in the games for people like us and also decided that wasn't how they wanted most Halo players to play their games. 

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I find most ttk discussions awfully boring. There's so much more to discuss regarding game design.

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2 hours ago, hvs500 said:

I find most ttk discussions awfully boring. There's so much more to discuss regarding game design.

But all in all it’s what comes to mind when thinking strong.

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Unrelated but I've isolated what made Halo CE flood so much more fun and a "fair challenge" to fight compared to their later iterations (especially Halo 2 flood). 

1) Halo CE flood have a distinct aggression pattern where they will walk slowly towards while while firing at the player, followed by chasing the player in a straight line at a very high speed (slightly more than the player's BMS) and attempting to get in a hit (whilst still firing, albeit much less accurately or frequently). When fighting hordes of combat forms, some will immediately give pursuit while others stand back and fire. Instead of chasing the player directly, they will occasionally leap from a distance towards the player. 

2) Halo CE flood can be consistently stunned by weapon fire. Any weapon that isn't the needler can stun them if you fire at them, leaving them effectively locked in place for roughly 0.8-1 seconds. After being stunned, they resume their behavior. 

3) Halo CE's flood are far more "relatively" frail individually than their later counterparts. Basically every weapon in CE's sandbox (aside from the sniper rifle) is usable against them, but the meat and potatoes of the sandbox - the pistol and the shotgun are both particularly good against them on top of the former being able to exploit headshots. Effectively, this renders combat against them viable all the way from the end of mid-range (as opposed to Halo 2, where every single weapon sucks against flood but especially ranged weaponry). 

4) Halo CE's level design and encounter design with respect to flood has 2 things in common for nearly every instance - large, repeatedly spawning waves of flood along with a general abundance of space to fight them in. There are a few exceptions, such as the corridors on Keyes or Pillar of Autumn but these still preserve the former trait. 


All of these combine to provide a gameplay loop that focuses on quick reaction time, target prioritization, evasion, maintaining offensive pressure, and not walking into a no man's land of sorts where you'll get swarmed from every direction. I think this should be the standard template for designing flood enemies in the future. 

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3 hours ago, _Synapse said:

Unrelated but I've isolated what made Halo CE flood so much more fun and a "fair challenge" to fight compared to their later iterations (especially Halo 2 flood). 

1) Halo CE flood have a distinct aggression pattern where they will walk slowly towards while while firing at the player, followed by chasing the player in a straight line at a very high speed (slightly more than the player's BMS) and attempting to get in a hit (whilst still firing, albeit much less accurately or frequently). When fighting hordes of combat forms, some will immediately give pursuit while others stand back and fire. Instead of chasing the player directly, they will occasionally leap from a distance towards the player. 

2) Halo CE flood can be consistently stunned by weapon fire. Any weapon that isn't the needler can stun them if you fire at them, leaving them effectively locked in place for roughly 0.8-1 seconds. After being stunned, they resume their behavior. 

3) Halo CE's flood are far more "relatively" frail individually than their later counterparts. Basically every weapon in CE's sandbox (aside from the sniper rifle) is usable against them, but the meat and potatoes of the sandbox - the pistol and the shotgun are both particularly good against them on top of the former being able to exploit headshots. Effectively, this renders combat against them viable all the way from the end of mid-range (as opposed to Halo 2, where every single weapon sucks against flood but especially ranged weaponry). 

4) Halo CE's level design and encounter design with respect to flood has 2 things in common for nearly every instance - large, repeatedly spawning waves of flood along with a general abundance of space to fight them in. There are a few exceptions, such as the corridors on Keyes or Pillar of Autumn but these still preserve the former trait. 


All of these combine to provide a gameplay loop that focuses on quick reaction time, target prioritization, evasion, maintaining offensive pressure, and not walking into a no man's land of sorts where you'll get swarmed from every direction. I think this should be the standard template for designing flood enemies in the future. 

Halo 1's flood is the best and I miss fighting against the flood. Prometheans have to be my least favorite type of enemy. Except the Yanme'e from Halo 2.  Those were annoying AF.  

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Halo CE flood really were ahead of their time, it's truly staggering just how much fun they are to fight compared to their later counterparts. 

It may not seem like a huge thing but #2 and #3 are the biggest reasons as to why Halo 2 flood suck comparatively. You can't stun them but you can outrun them, so it turns into a dull backpedalling-while-spamming-shotgun-blanks contest. On top of that, their melees are worse than CE flood (even with their apparent 360 degree melee radius) because they shake the player's camera and affect the player's physics impulses, on top of spamming 2-3 spastic hits in quick succession. 

You can't stun them by firing (you can actually barely even touch them at all), you can't reliably dodge their melees in close quarters because several of them will spastically melee/leap-melee you in a row, and each of their hits almost stuns you. 

The only thing at all that H2 flood had that wasn't an extremely inferior version of their CE behaviors was the "dead" combat form reposession/body destruction mechanic. Even then, that's really minor. 

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On 4/17/2021 at 1:32 AM, Aphex Twin said:

So what is this, your 30th account now? 

If it is Toast then it's closer to 120th.

I am not exaggerating.

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I disagree with you on this Synapse. While halo 1's flood are no doubt better than 2's rendition, I feel like they didn't work well enough with halo 1s sandbox. You had no reason to use anything but shotgun pistol and maybe ar against them. This lead to flood only levels being shotgun fests where you did the same shit over and over till the level ended. No adapting, no planning, no thinking. Just the right trigger. 

I feel like the halo 3 flood were able to address these issues for the most part.

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Halo CE Flood were the most fun to fight but I wouldn't have minded if they had a different weakness - the back half of CE is you just using a Pistol + Shotgun the vast majority of the time (at least for me). An occasional plasma pistol for Elites or a Sniper for long range, as well as Rockets are useful to use but they're mostly just a quick pickup weapon for me before swapping again. But because the AR is still really good on the Flood plus the PP still being very strong on Elites, you could still switch up your weapons and succeed.

Meanwhile Halo 2 is just Energy Sword or run away. The only good thing I can think of is that Halo 2's Flood sound effects were really good during one of the later missions (though of course part of that is the scenery in which the player is in too). And that they were still better than fighting Prometheans. 

Halo 3's Flood are more fun to fight than Halo 2 IMO but I absolutely hate the Drone Flood forms that stick to the wall; they shoot you from practically unlimited range, don't move or flinch and they're bullet sponges. Seriously, you can put an entire Carbine or BR clip into 1 Flood form and they still not die. Even though the Elite Flood forms are a bit frustrating with their energy shield, it did encourage you to use a Plasma Rifle or Pistol against them so it did switch up your weapon usage a bit IMO. 

Give me Halo CE Flood with a mix of H3 features 

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If 343 made their game a different game from Halo or named the game besides Halo "4" or "5" I think the community would be a lot more tuned. The deception alone killed a lot of peoples hopes for the game. If the games were named something different like Infinite we would have gotten a better experience.

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On 4/20/2021 at 10:13 PM, Aphex Twin said:

You're not convinced it's him? 

I'm about 80% convinced. Some people are just cooked.

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On 4/20/2021 at 7:46 AM, hvs500 said:

I disagree with you on this Synapse. While halo 1's flood are no doubt better than 2's rendition, I feel like they didn't work well enough with halo 1s sandbox. You had no reason to use anything but shotgun pistol and maybe ar against them. This lead to flood only levels being shotgun fests where you did the same shit over and over till the level ended. No adapting, no planning, no thinking. Just the right trigger. 

I feel like the halo 3 flood were able to address these issues for the most part.

Halo CE flood aren't perfect by any means, and the issue you note with Shotgun + Pistol centric levels is correct. Though, my post was moreso about the ability to fight them at all ranges. Halo 2 really doesn't have this at all, and so most flood combat consists of holding back on the movement stick while spamming the most ineffective shotgun in the series or using the sword to cheap out on any actual effort. 

The combat against flood was very repetitive and somewhat brainless yes, but I guess I could personally stand it because it was mechanically fun. Moreover, fun is what's most important. There's a hundred ways you can make it a little more mentally challenging. 

Halo 3 flood aren't bad sandbox balancing wise, but their AI is more or less Halo 2 flood AI and sucks just as much. Also, letting the sword one-hit pure forms was the stupidest thing Bungie did. 

Using CE flood & their defining gameplay characteristics as a standard template while adding key features from Halo 2 + Halo 3 and contextualizing it all in a great sandbox would be key. Halo 2 combat form reanimation by infection form + Shielded Infection Forms + Body Destruction and Halo 3 real-time infection + pure forms are things I'd include. 

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Are they going to do anymore of those development things for infinite? 

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