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8 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

We're far more likely to get an H4 later this year that lasts all of 1-3 months so if the franchise got another H3 and went back remotely close to its height in popularity that would be mind blowing

At the time, H3 had the crutch of two massively popular games before it. A hypothetical re-skinned H3 doesn't have the luxury of huge wakes to ride to distract people from the fact that the game's mechanics dont leave any room for being effective as a lone wolf. 

Even ex-h3 pros who were total shills for the game shit on it now. H3 wouldnt stand a chance in 2021. 

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8 minutes ago, Aphex Twin said:

At the time, H3 had the crutch of two massively popular games before it. A hypothetical re-skinned H3 doesn't have the luxury of huge wakes to ride to distract people from the fact that the game's mechanics dont leave any room for being effective as a lone wolf. 

Even ex-h3 pros who were total shills for the game shit on it now. H3 wouldnt stand a chance in 2021. 

Idk man even the corpse of Halo 3 is still drawing the most players out of all of the options for a Halo game. I don't realistically expect them to make a functionally superior game to anything bungie did but I'd be happy to be surprised 

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16 minutes ago, Aphex Twin said:

At the time, H3 had the crutch of two massively popular games before it. A hypothetical re-skinned H3 doesn't have the luxury of huge wakes to ride to distract people from the fact that the game's mechanics dont leave any room for being effective as a lone wolf. 

Even ex-h3 pros who were total shills for the game shit on it now. H3 wouldnt stand a chance in 2021. 

absolutely abhorrent post.

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If there was any real appetite for games with no feeling of individual power & TTKs as long as H3's, modern halo would have been able to retain a respectable population over the last decade. 

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49 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I'd agree the BR spread isn't super ideal but at this point people conceptually get mad at it and disagree with it more so than it actually impacts the reality of their games when shooting correctly on most of the competitive maps. For example there really aren't reasonable angles on Guardian or Heretic where spread is the reason your shots didn't land.

H3's issues lie with how the mechanics contribute to players feeling powerless. 

The RNG spread is only one of the factors that makes players feel powerless in H3. I havent played H3 in years & never will, so I dont have any hands-on experience with the new patch. But I also dont need to play any more H3 to know that the TTKs are still too long, strafing is still too slippery, aim acceleration is still too sluggish, power item timers are too long, etc... 

 

 

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Just now, Rdispushedback said:

This guy has to be squidword of the forum.

Stomped you in every debate we've had so far, toast. Happy to do it again. 

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Infinite is going to be dead like the dozens of free to play battle royale games before it. 

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If there's one thing that 343 has actually done correctly, it's utility weapons that fire straight (or, at least have some semblance of a predictable recoil pattern in the case of the H4 BR). The gimpy-ness of the utility won't come from random spread, it'll come from an absurd TTK.

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2 hours ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

If there's one thing that 343 has actually done correctly, it's utility weapons that fire straight (or, at least have some semblance of a predictable recoil pattern in the case of the H4 BR). The gimpy-ness of the utility won't come from random spread, it'll come from an absurd TTK.

We hope. There's a lot of redditors who think bloom is good

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7 hours ago, Aphex Twin said:

H3's issues lie with how the mechanics contribute to players feeling powerless. 

The RNG spread is only one of the factors that makes players feel powerless in H3. I havent played H3 in years & never will, so I dont have any hands-on experience with the new patch. But I also dont need to play any more H3 to know that the TTKs are still too long, strafing is still too slippery, aim acceleration is still too sluggish, power item timers are too long, etc... 

 

 

Interesting take. Have you ever had the opportunity to play Halo 3 on LAN? 

I began my competitive infatuation with Halo during Halo 2. When I first started playing Halo 3, I absolutely loathed the game. That is until I played it more and more and began to realize it wasn't the game I used to love, but something new entirely. It had to be played differently on a fundamental level, and I grew to appreciate that. I won't apologize for the poor hit detection and other technical shortcomings, but I won't entirely condemn it for those things either.

 

I admired how it stripped self centered play, and made players lean into there teammates more then any other Halo. The slow TTK really emphasized team shooting, player  positioning and weapon/powerup control to a level that wasn't seen yet in previous Halo entries and I loved the team strats that evolved out of the ineffectiveness of players individual damage output. Snipers became your main slayers, and I loved how team roles and dynamics developed. Halo 3 was peek teamwork/team play Halo and nothing will take that away from it. 

It's definitely not for everyone, and I understand the psychological aspect of individuals that don't enjoy the feeling of being "powerless".   But there is a high demand and player base for such games. The popularity of overwatch and league of legends speaks to this enough.

  Im glad Halo 3 existed, and that we can still play it on MCC but I don't think we need another repeat of the entry come Infinite. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 11:27 AM, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

If we view this abstractlyi.e., we ignore all other factors beyond kill time itself, I think too large of a chasm between the minimum and average kill time could risk rendering sub-average kill times the result of luck or chance—something we definitely don't want. However, I think this risk is eminently controllable once you factor in the number of shots needed to kill. The more shots required to kill, the lower the risk that the "perfect" kill—or even a sub-average number of shots to kill—was a result of sheer chance.**

I disagree. 

I understand what you're saying: as we lower the number of shots required to kill, we reduce player focus on aim consistency in favor of instantaneous accuracy (the ability to be perfectly on-point with your reticle at the instant that you fire a shot). 

This is somewhat true (hence how it's possible to land a snipe out of your ass in H3 but not a 4 shot), but aim consistency is something that's been a factor in Halo's mechanical skillgap moreso because of the general ease to land shots with a BR/DMR and high TTKs, rather than anything else.

I don't think this is a natural state of aim, and I really think that it would disappear if we tuned aim assist down and designed Halo around being a true MKB/Controller shooter rather than just a Controller shooter that can also be played with MKB. 

On 4/9/2021 at 11:27 AM, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

TLDR: We definitely want to maximize the gap between minimum TTK and the average TTK, but if the gap is too large, it could render many sub-average kill times the result of chance. We can control for this with a separate variable: number of shots required to kill. The question becomes, numerically, how many shots to kill strikes the ideal balance between avoiding luck and preventing team shooting as the only viable strategy?

___________________________

**Adding a footnote here just to note that a high number of shots to kill does not necessarily mean that the minimum TTK will be "too long." You could have a 5sk utility that kills in 1 second flat. So when I talk here about the number of shots being a separate variable from TTK, I am assuming that the intervals between shots can be optimized to provide a low TTK from a time perspective.

I agree and have felt similarly on the CE pistol. I don't know if it was just me, but CE's pistol is easily my best utility. Before the CE PC launch that fucked the game on XB1, close to a third of all my kills in CE against strafing opponents were 3SKs and around 50% were 4SKs. I don't know if this had to do with my aim settings (10 Vertical Sens, 10 Horizontal Sens, 0 Deadzones) but it felt way too easy and was the initial reason why I couldn't accept CE as being the most skillful Halo. 

Honestly, I don't think CE on MCC is anywhere near a representation of how difficult it truly should be to master the utility weapon. 60+FPS, modern aim, cleaner visuals, and high refresh rates have all made it significantly easier than I believe it should be. It's necessary to account for these factors when designing a modern Halo. 

I'm not necessarily opposed to a 4SK though I find a 3SK much more preferable due to the strategic and tactical flexibility it provides. 

My original question was moreso about the fact that raising the minimum-average TTK difference too much may end up practically the same as teamshot-heavy Halo. 

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I'm certain this game will be another failure, just hearing about the fact too many creative leads on this game have left during the development. 

Same thing happened to h5 and look what happened. 

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5 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Most of the bloom in Halo Infinite is visual.

Most of it.

Oh hell no

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19 minutes ago, _Synapse said:

Oh hell no

It’s not surprising. I’d expect bloom on automatics and what not and maybe the starting pistol. I wouldn’t expect it on the precision weapons though. And usually 343 doesn’t do bloom heavy I’ll add. I’d prefer no bloom period but game developers do this all the time so guns don’t feel op. Halo is a game where there’s no real balance mechanics like recoil because it would frustrate everyone. People don’t even use the BR in h5 because of the recoil. 

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17 hours ago, SaltyKoalaBear said:

 I admired how it stripped self centered play, and made players lean into there teammates more then any other Halo. The slow TTK really emphasized team shooting, player  positioning and weapon/powerup control to a level that wasn't seen yet in previous Halo entries and I loved the team strats that evolved out of the ineffectiveness of players individual damage output. Snipers became your main slayers, and I loved how team roles and dynamics developed. Halo 3 was peek teamwork/team play Halo and nothing will take that away from it. 

I would argue that halo 3 didnt gain anything by nerfing individual's killing potential. Rather, teamshooting became the only viable strategy in the game. I dont agree with your point on Halo 3's strategies evolving over time, the meta was restricted to teamshooting. You couldnt run any plays that would potentially leave a teammate in a 2v1 scenario since the long TTKs essentially left no room for an individual skill gap. It doesnt matter how good your aim and strafe are in Halo 3, the long TTKs neutered your ability to win a fight where you are out-manned. Halo 3 is a safety in numbers game. 

I also dont agree with you on halo 3 emphasizing 'positioning' because again, winning a 2v1 is impossible with H3's TTKs. You are restricted to positioning yourself such that you can escape since H3's long TTKs forgive players for bad positioning more than any other halo game. 

I also dont agree with your point on power weapon control being emphasized in Halo 3 because everything was on a 2-3 minute timer - compare that to 60-second timers in CE which forced teams to constantly cycle through the map. The long power item timers forced stagnation in Halo 3. Maps like The Pit, Narrows, and Construct also contributed to this playstyle. 

I dont think league and overwatch are the best examples for demonstrating demand for a team-style game since everyone spawns with the same base player traits in Halo. I actually think halo would be much better as a hero shooter or battle royal, the game mechanics are much better suited for those game styles vs this arena/run-n-gun model which has consistently failed over the last decade. Playing Halo 3 feels like everyone is roadhog - it takes forever to kill anyone, you simply cant win a 2v1, movement is slow and sluggish, and your gun has no range. I dont think there's a big market for this type of experience.

Curious - what's your take on vanilla Reach? I'd assume that Reach was your favorite since it amplified Halo 3's feeling of powerlessness with a 5sk DMR and crosshair bloom that took ages to reset, on top of get-out-of-jail-free armor abilities which further prolonged gunfights. You see this carry over into H4 and H5 with guns not strong enough to stop an opponent from retreat on your own. 

I also played Halo 3 on LAN pretty regularly during 2007 and 2008. I had a local crew that started LANing often in 2004 with Halo 2 and CE, so we pretty much hit the ground running when H3 first launched. For all my critiques, I did grind halo 3 a lot when it first came out, but stopped pretty quickly after realizing why I didnt like it. 

 

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Low TTKs don't increase individual player directly strength by allowing them to take 2v1s, this is wrong. You're not encouraged to take a 2v1 any more in CE than in H3. 

What Low TTKs do is they directly affect the ability of skilled players to make plays by allowing them to exploit bad positioning /awareness much more. Low TTKs allow players to have far more strategic and tactical flexibility and choose dynamic strats that could never work with a longer TTK. Low TTKs increase the skillgap in gunfights. They don't make numbers disadvantages less significant, however. 

And yes, longer TTK sucks for team strategy as much as it does for individual strategy. A team is only as strong as it's individual members, and a team of gimped players will be less strong than that of empowered players. Team strategy is even more crucial in CE than it is in MLG H3, except that CE teams need their players to coordinate and make their own individual plays while dispersed whilst Halo 3 limits you to teamshot.

That's why shorter TTKs are better. Your team coordination and strength gains depth, variety, and tests the ability of each player to make decisions quickly. A longer TTK doesn't increase the depth or complexity to a team game, it just causes individual skill to get squashed out of the equation altogether and team skill to devolve into "who can stack 2v1s and angles better". 

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47 minutes ago, _Synapse said:

You're not encouraged to take a 2v1 any more in CE than in H3. 

The point I was trying to make is that you can win 2v1s in CE if you're good enough. Even if you get the jump on a duo in H3, it doesnt matter how much better your aim and/or strafe are - the minimum TTKs (and difference between avg & minimum TTK) will never allow you to win. This shrinks the individual skill gap & limits the team meta, which I think you go on to explain. 

Fully agree with the rest of your post. 

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You can barely win 2v1's in h1, be that mcc or lan and thats just on god, im pretty sure bigshow did some math on it assuming a player reacts perfectly to the first shot on their teammate it requires a complete choke on player 2 and a complete robot aim from player 1 to consistently do it

 

Hard truth is team games = team shot, it will always be the "optimal strategy," every game of CE i play im trying to help my teammate whenever possible or get multiple lines of sight so we cover each other, thats all Hang em High really is to be honest, or Dere too if you wanna remove it from the whole "spawnfuck and stay on top" thing

TTK, movement, map sightlines, etc all play off one another. TTK in h5 is slower than CE if you look at the fastest kill times or objective numbers but I wouldn't call it a slow or teamshooty game 

 

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This content is an embarrassment.

The overall vibe of this map is pipes and walls. There's nothing exciting about it.

halo-infinite-multiplayer-screenshots_q7

This map looks terrible.

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31 minutes ago, Killmachine said:

You can barely win 2v1's in h1, be that mcc or lan and thats just on god, im pretty sure bigshow did some math on it assuming a player reacts perfectly to the first shot on their teammate it requires a complete choke on player 2 and a complete robot aim from player 1 to consistently do it

 

Hard truth is team games = team shot, it will always be the "optimal strategy," every game of CE i play im trying to help my teammate whenever possible or get multiple lines of sight so we cover each other, thats all Hang em High really is to be honest, or Dere too if you wanna remove it from the whole "spawnfuck and stay on top" thing

TTK, movement, map sightlines, etc all play off one another. TTK in h5 is slower than CE if you look at the fastest kill times or objective numbers but I wouldn't call it a slow or teamshooty game 

 

I believe in CE supremacy obviously. But it is true that teamshot is very important in CE and H2. While a wider minimum vs average TTK helps the game overall. The reason H3 is slow is because of FOV, spread, shit maps, shit weapon balance. 

 

H5 isn't "slow" because of the pistol. It feels slow because thrust allows people to back down from fights that would've gotten them killed in CE or 2, the H3 BR not withstanding.  I used to be on the H3 bad always train, but with the hit reg I'm getting in MCC now, it's fun. Would I prefer CE? Absolutely. I think the individual is still the strongest in CE. The real debate for me is H2 or H3. It's harder to shoot in H3, not because of spread, it just is. The sniper is less forgiving. But button combos in H2 make you much more deadly up close, even if they create this weird style of gameplay where you're punished for shooting first in some situations. 

 

Halo 5's biggest issue for me is the aiming, and the pacing. The aiming is self explanitory and been talked about a lot. But as a 4v4 game H5 has the most unique pacing of all the Halo games. It's either everyone flying everywhere to the point it feels just like chaos with callouts to slow and steady setup for flag caps. 

 

I kinda rambled but basically Killmachine is right. Teamshot has always been king and 2v1s are always going to be heavily favored to the majority. Just the way the world works. 

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Why is CE and MCC so popular in Columbia? There seems to be a significant population there and I've never been really sure as to why. Ease of access for a 10+ year old game? 

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