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Halo Infinite Discussion

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12 minutes ago, JordanB said:

The outlines thing is a bit too much though, I shouldn't be given enemy location just because a teammate looked at an enemy.

No different than callouts though, right? You can already get enemy locations just because a teammate looked at an enemy via callouts. 

Think I'd prefer an apex-style system where you have to push a button to mark enemies, but I also dont see a functional difference between seeing enemy pings/outlines through walls. 

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3 minutes ago, Aphex Twin said:

No different than callouts though, right? You can already get enemy locations just because a teammate looked at an enemy via callouts. 

Think I'd prefer an apex-style system where you have to push a button to mark enemies, but I also dont see a functional difference between seeing enemy pings/outlines through walls. 

Well my concern with just looking at an enemy is how would the game define it as you looking at them? Would they just have to see them on your screen (this would be a disaster) or would you have to put your cursor over them (this one would be ok)?

But as far as the outline goes what if you look at the enemy but you can no longer see them (i.e. they moved behind a wall). Would we still have vision on the enemy? How long does the vision last? A ping is just one set location (I am fine with) but an outline is showing enemy movements, possibly where you can't even actually see them anymore.

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1 hour ago, Aphex Twin said:

Grenade hitmarkers are similar to radar in that they both reveal the location of unspotted enemies. 

In my mind, pings are no different than callouts. 

Oh I'm all for pings ever since Apex made them mainstream, but outlines are a step too far imo, really don't like the sound of them for various reasons.

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22 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

To be clear though I don't really think radar/no radar matters in the grand scheme of a successful Halo. I think its just one of those decisions that will get swept away by the success or failure of the game and not really determine which of those two it is. I personally don't think radar does anything positive outside of FFA and I'm pretty neutral with it in campaign. That sort of balancing point between radar or no radar being better for the gameplay is somewhat above most people who play the game 

I agree with that. 

Also, have any of you actually played with newer players? They don't use the radar. They can't use the radar and focus on the game at hand at the same time. The only people using radar effectively are people who have played long enough to know the levels and utilize it as a crutch. It's easy and it seems important, but it really isn't. Radar is fine for FFA, because it removes some of the randomness from it, but it really has no place in other game modes. 

If we're insisting on Radar, we should have enemy players only show up on the radar when they are in the FOV of you or your teammate. Outlines are absurd and would not be good for Halo games. 

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6 minutes ago, BigShow36 said:

I agree with that. 

Also, have any of you actually played with newer players? They don't use the radar. They can't use the radar and focus on the game at hand at the same time. The only people using radar effectively are people who have played long enough to know the levels and utilize it as a crutch. It's easy and it seems important, but it really isn't. Radar is fine for FFA, because it removes some of the randomness from it, but it really has no place in other game modes. 

If we're insisting on Radar, we should have enemy players only show up on the radar when they are in the FOV of you or your teammate. Outlines are absurd and would not be good for Halo games. 

Yeah I agree with pretty much all of this. I have to play social when I get on late night sometimes and you'll get a lot of these people who honestly kind of struggle to move and shoot at the same time and they're just oblivious to everything radar or no radar

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I think there's room for a passive information system in social settings, especially if you view social settings—as I do—as designed to provide a relaxed version of the base competitive game. A very underrated element of radar settings is that you can play the game effectively without having to leave your Party Chat/Discord. I know people like to bemoan the decline of Game Chat, which I get in the context of Ranked/Competitive settings, but when I hop on Xbox these days I'm usually exhausted and just want to be zonked out and chill with my friends; I don't want to have to talk to teenagers or, god forbid, pre-teens just to not get destroyed in a game mode where I really don't care about the outcome anyway.

That said, I don't think radar is the best iteration of a passive information system. A passive system can still be designed such that it only rewards active behavior. A system could, for example, ping your teammates' radar for as long as the enemy remains within a certain distance of your reticule. Or it could only ping teammates once you've landed a certain number of shots on an enemy. I'm not a design guru, but anything really that can help provide a stand in for call outs in social settings would work—it would certainly keep people like me playing, where as if I'm confined to no passive info settings at all times, I will probably not play the game when I'm not in the mood to really focus on winning/sweating it out.

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27 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

I think there's room for a passive information system in social settings, especially if you view social settings—as I do—as designed to provide a relaxed version of the base competitive game. A very underrated element of radar settings is that you can play the game effectively without having to leave your Party Chat/Discord. I know people like to bemoan the decline of Game Chat, which I get in the context of Ranked/Competitive settings, but when I hop on Xbox these days I'm usually exhausted and just want to be zonked out and chill with my friends; I don't want to have to talk to teenagers or, god forbid, pre-teens just to not get destroyed in a game mode where I really don't care about the outcome anyway.

That said, I don't think radar is the best iteration of a passive information system. A passive system can still be designed such that it only rewards active behavior. A system could, for example, ping your teammates' radar for as long as the enemy remains within a certain distance of your reticule. Or it could only ping teammates once you've landed a certain number of shots on an enemy. I'm not a design guru, but anything really that can help provide a stand in for call outs in social settings would work—it would certainly keep people like me playing, where as if I'm confined to no passive info settings at all times, I will probably not play the game when I'm not in the mood to really focus on winning/sweating it out.

We already have the arrows over teammates changing colors when they're shooting/being shot. Its all you really need for matchmaking people are just blind and deaf too while they play because they don't care and not because the information isn't available 

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A real way to tell that this game is going to absolutely fail is the amount of money and resources poured into the making of this game and yet we are getting an unrealistical return in content.

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3 hours ago, Aphex Twin said:

No different than callouts though, right? You can already get enemy locations just because a teammate looked at an enemy via callouts.

Callouts go from your teammates eyes to their brain to their mouth to their mic to your ears to your brain. And the target is likely moving. Meanwhile outlines instantly tell you exactly where the dude is and you don't even need to know the map to connect the dots.

I can get behind a vision-based radar like CSGO with limited range (so targets far away are just dots on the edge of the compass), and I've proposed teammate outlines before, it would do wonders for better team cohesion between randoms in MM. But enemy outlines are a step too far IMO.

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The DMR ruined Halo, I said it. Its where Halo tanked. If Halo is to survive and succeed as a Halo game it needs to be 100% successfull in this game area. The utility.

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What if enemies were highlighted on a whole team's minimap only when in the FOV of any said team member? As in, said enemies would not be highlighted when moving at full speed or even when firing weapons, if they weren't in somebody's field of vision. 

I'm more and more lending myself to the idea of a minimap rather than the existing radar. The way that radar is set up (as a purely defensive mechanic rather than an aid for teams without comms) completely destroys game pacing. 

Highlighting players within an enemy's FOV on a global team minimap would not only serve to make team cohesion possible without comms, it would actively make people seek out angles on opponents to give their teams an information advantage. 

If the FOV quirk gives too much of an advantage to more powerful hardware, then we can narrow it to a set portion of FOV. Within a 70 degree FOV, whatever. 

Also, why not represent the map as a series of closed 2D polygons on the minimap? Instead of a red blip precisely placing an opponent at a specific spot on the map, why not higlight the whole polygon in red so as to limit the information advantage that radar gives? 

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Radar could be better than no radar.

First, the motion sensing aspect needs to go. Halo 5 did that mostly right. That's the most important part because it punishes movement and rewards waiting. Fights in radar range are also less interesting because of it.

Secondly, some information makes the game so much more playable for most people. most people aren't talking together, so the game should be designed with that in mind. It can also make for some "information warfare" gameplay at higher levels if done right.

Third, to actually help new players and not negatively affect anything, it should help them learn maps. So it should be larger and show outlines of geometry, objectives, pick ups etc. That would make backwards navigation more feasible too. Maybe pick up timers could be shown here too, as bubbles on the edge when outside the maps radius.

The current radar doesn't help new players understand the flow of maps or where to expct enemies because it only shows people when they are very close.

Something that would help players find enemies is a longer ranged radar with new rules. Maybe a diameter of half of Guardian.

Players appear as dots, and along the edge if outside the map radius.

Enemies appear:

1) When they fire - this is way more interesting than it appears. It adds a risk to shooting, and it opes up for some mind games. You can act on the enemy knowing where you are/were and they can act on you knowing that again, and so on. It adds depth. I know a Battlefield 4 player who prefers playing without a suppressor because it makes the enemy more predictable. Anyways, just the part of letting players easily find people to fight would be huge for onboarding and casual play.

2) When you shoot at them - this would be a nice passive communication feature. Voice is still way more powerful and necessary in competition.

3) As several people have discussed, when looked at. Essentially the same as above except you don't have to shoot, which you dont always want to. No button-bound ping system is necessary, though it would be a nice addition for other purposes. A ~0.25s requirement of aiming near an enemy indicates intent of marking him and prevents sweeping to tag people. This should just make them appear on the minimap as if they fired a shot, on a short cooldown (1s?) so you can periodical ping someoneby tracing them.

 

So yeah, that's essentially the CoD radar +. They get some stuff right sometimes.

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Halo "4".. a true Halo 4. With Infinite being the next Halo it needs to be just that. Expectations must be met. A new Halo with a great utility in the game is all we need. Everything else keep "Halo".

I think that's why we are all here instead of another game forum. Because Halo.

Halo has a legit community around "Halo" and not just people posting random gameplays etc. There's a science behind Halo. It hits different.

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The thing with me and Halo is that I really don't find any of that information necessary with personal awareness. Everyone has played the game where you're all just yelling out map locations but real teams now, or at least good ones, have most of the discussion about what they're going to do and when. So like rather than me yelling someone is green box constantly its more like "I'm pushing green or I've got your help in green". Nobody needed to be told that we're gonna kill someone in green if we find them but we probably would at some point mention if someone were crouching in the rocket spawn in green and we knew we were going that way. We're just focused on achieving certain goals or positions as a team more than other things. Simply having map awareness and being attentive to sound and your teammates indicators is enough for a lot of the communication that you would get in random matchmade games and a ping system or radar/map isn't enough for higher level communication. 

I guess what I'm getting at is that most people's idea of communication in matchmaking is just a running stream of whatever is in front of their eyes and if you're aware of their position and see they're being shot/shooting and have ears you probably already know 95% of the information they're saying so its not really that helpful. Its the communication that helps everyone stay together and work towards something (which you almost never see in mm) that's actually important. Basically I'm not sure the game really needs a better map or ping system or anything to begin with

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12 hours ago, vembress said:

What Halo really needs is outlines. Outlines for teammates probably aren't necessary but they'd help. What i'd REALLY want is outlines over enemy players that teammates of yours currently have eyes on. It would help with the majority of players that don't call out.

I don't think this is good because not all opponents would be seen by the player, only by the game. There are lots of reasons for this, such as concentration on making a play and an opponent is briefly off in the background, or you're turning to respond to a callout and your field of view connects with an opponent but you don't notice them. Seems very game breaking. It seems more authentic for callouts to be directly tied to the awareness of the players making them and not automated by the game, resulting in opponents being revealed without intention.

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How about if your crosshair is on them for a second or so, then a brief outline is shown that teammates can see?

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I don’t see the problem with outlines personally. I mean sure it sounds a little absurd but if I can through the wall what my teammates are seeing I think that’s fine. It’s basically the same as call outs. It can be set up to instantly disappear if my teammate can no longer see. To be just they should have to have the crosshairs on them. Or at least within the space of the crosshair an not the very edge of their screen. 

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When 343 finally decides to show multiplayer off they need to advertise that BTB mode as much as possible. Big maps tons of players fighting is the rage. If they get a 64 or 100 or even more(doubt it) then people will flop. 

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The reddit revolution and it's consequences have been disastrous for the halo playerbase. Imagine a society that subjects people to an astonishing lack of critical thinking and then provides them with forerunner plumbing system lore to take away their unhappiness.

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10 hours ago, Rdispushedback said:

The DMR ruined Halo, I said it. Its where Halo tanked. If Halo is to survive and succeed as a Halo game it needs to be 100% successfull in this game area. The utility.

I'd say that the BR ruined halo. Copious amounts of aim assist, effortless headshots, and randomness.

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On 3/29/2021 at 5:52 PM, Boyo said:

If I had a giant player model, the size of three Warthogs stacked on top of each other, would it be harder for enemies to land shots on me or easier for enemies to land shots on the broad side of a barn that I’ve become?  

Boyo is an enigma, too deep and difficult for our monkey brains to comprehend. He could be the zodiac killer for all we know.

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17 hours ago, Rdispushedback said:

The DMR ruined Halo, I said it. Its where Halo tanked. 

Half agree with you. I think bloom and 5sk (long kill times) had more to do with Halo tanking. Not to mention get-out-of-jail-free armor abilities.

If only Reach launched with a no bloom 3sk DMR. So much potential... 

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343s design is unplayable. Reach Halo declined. Halo 1-3.. on the contrary.

But I wasn't attempting to make an argument with anyone on a forum either about useless utility vses. I'm making educated conversation for the better of Halo.

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With facts and with a general ability to understand competitive balance and how that correlates to fun and that correlating to population should be taken into consideration. Bungie was able to do this at God level. Much like sports, Halo was able to reach the general population.

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