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Halo Infinite Discussion

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12 hours ago, TeeJaY said:

Reach actually had respectable population numbers (maintained about ~70% of H3's). H4 is where things really tanked.

Halo 4 is the first Halo game where I gave up pretty quickly after the honeymoon phase. Reach was bad but I tired harder to like it than I did with Halo 4.  I stuck around for the ZBNS and actually really enjoyed ZBNS.  Got pretty sweaty with it.   Halo 4 I just felt like there was no hope.   Halo 5 was a little better than 4 but the same thing happened with 4, it just took a little longer. Instead of ZBNS, I got into playing the "evolved settings" in custom games. 

I am interested to see what will happen with Infinite. Hopefully with it being cross-plat with PC, the population can stay bigger for longer.  I sound like a broken record at this point but I am really hoping their can be a "classic no sprint" customs movement early on.  Hopefully the game launches with some sort of Custom Game browser or server browser. One can dream.  We need to make a No Sprint Halo Infinite Discord server with LFG channels otherwise.  

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7 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

I’m not a firm believer still that TTK being faster is the solution.

Three long-TTK Halo games in a row have failed to retain a population. How many more need to flop before you finally see the light? 

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14 minutes ago, Aphex Twin said:

Three long-TTK Halo games in a row have failed to retain a population. How many more need to flop before you finally see the light? 

And sprint..

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TTK being faster isn't the only thing. The minimum and average TTKs need to be separate enough for the utility to feel rewarding 

 

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1 hour ago, hvs500 said:

Just no. I take no issue with enhanced lethality, however I do take issue with enhanced lethality in all the situations all the time, because that makes the combat far less interesting and dynamic. Dropping the utility is an interesting sacrifice which in turn leads to interesting gameplay. I don't feel like it slows down the pace of the game, infact, I'd argue that it promotes quick thinking and creativity. 

I look at a droppable utility weapon the same way I look at health packs (and non-recharging health).  I shouldn’t have to go find a pick-up just to get my base abilities back.  

If weapon pick-ups are sufficiently powerful, by way of alt-fire mechanics, they will make the choice of keeping the utility weapon obsolete.  Players will be deciding which equipment-like alt-fire they want, not whether they want to drop the utility or not.  

And I do agree that those inherent limitations force decision making and promote creativity but in order to scale Halo up, weapons need to become more capable.  For an oversimplified example, primary fire fights infantry while alt-fire fights vehicles.  Allow infantry to influence large scale battles as well as small.  

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28 minutes ago, OG Nick said:

TTK being faster isn't the only thing. The minimum and average TTKs need to be separate enough for the utility to feel rewarding 

 

While I do think faster minimum TTKs alone will help retain the population (it's hard to go anywhere but up in Halo's current state), my ideal utility weapon would be projectile. 

That said, if I had the choice between modern Halo's TTKs vs fast TTKs with hitscan, I'd argue the latter would be a huge upgrade. 

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2 hours ago, RatherSilentMr said:

Halo 4 is the first Halo game where I gave up pretty quickly after the honeymoon phase. Reach was bad but I tired harder to like it than I did with Halo 4.  I stuck around for the ZBNS and actually really enjoyed ZBNS.  Got pretty sweaty with it.   Halo 4 I just felt like there was no hope.   Halo 5 was a little better than 4 but the same thing happened with 4, it just took a little longer. Instead of ZBNS, I got into playing the "evolved settings" in custom games. 

@the bold I think that's almost entirely because Reach set you up for that. You'd already experienced an awful game but stuck around to see some steps forward only to watch it all crash back down again with the release of H4. I feel like Halo has had compounding mistakes doing this to the long time fans and its doing its best to exterminate anyone that has critical thoughts floating around in their head

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2 hours ago, RatherSilentMr said:

Halo 4 is the first Halo game where I gave up pretty quickly after the honeymoon phase. Reach was bad but I tired harder to like it than I did with Halo 4.  I stuck around for the ZBNS and actually really enjoyed ZBNS.  Got pretty sweaty with it.   Halo 4 I just felt like there was no hope.   Halo 5 was a little better than 4 but the same thing happened with 4, it just took a little longer. Instead of ZBNS, I got into playing the "evolved settings" in custom games. 

I am interested to see what will happen with Infinite. Hopefully with it being cross-plat with PC, the population can stay bigger for longer.  I sound like a broken record at this point but I am really hoping their can be a "classic no sprint" customs movement early on.  Hopefully the game launches with some sort of Custom Game browser or server browser. One can dream.  We need to make a No Sprint Halo Infinite Discord server with LFG channels otherwise.  

Dude we need a permanent no sprint playlist. Custom games do not work in this regard. When people wanted a custom browser the people who love infection customs like fat kid, or assassination lobbies etc are the ones who truly cared. The people who wanted to play stuff like h5 evolved were the few. Oh can we get lobby communication back! 

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2 hours ago, Aphex Twin said:

Three long-TTK Halo games in a row have failed to retain a population. How many more need to flop before you finally see the light? 

Reach did not flop, then what about h2&3?! You never answer those questions?! Reach saw a population drop compared to h3 but it’s population was still high for most games. 

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I was watching a Halo 5 tournament a couple weeks ago, and I couldn't help but notice that the combination of mechanics in that game just looks awkward. Here you are, with all sorts of movement mechanics like sprint, clamber, thruster pack, and slide, with pro players essentially flying across the map, but your base movement speed looks straight out of Halo 3.

It's as if 343 was just bolting on as many mechanics as they could onto Halo, and the result is a fairly strange (but skillful) concoction that I don't find particularly enjoyable to play. If you're gonna go with an approach that champions advanced mobility, make the maps and player counts larger, and don't forget to make base movement speed faster as well.

But in games on small maps like Halo (4v4) and CS:GO, I feel like the better approach is to keep it simple, relying on the variety of weapons to spice up the game.

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1 hour ago, Reamis25 said:

Reach did not flop, then what about h2&3?! You never answer those questions?! Reach saw a population drop compared to h3 but it’s population was still high for most games. 

What about h2 and 3? Those games didnt have the same levels of survivability that advanced movement provides. I think if H3 was remade it would flop - hasnt aged well in the era of fast TTKs. Ex halo pros shit all over H3 on Twitter, and H2A was unable to retain a population. 

If you think shedding 30% of your playerbase is no big deal, then dont work in business. I guarantee Bungie and 343 never made the argument to MS execs that their games' population numbers were a success, nor should they have. 

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truth be told halo exists in the public consciousness rn as a game that they feel nostalgic for and was about its atmosphere, if a halo clip or meme goes viral people inevitably in the comments start talking of how it was what they and their friends did, the music, the environments, the story, and ofc the fact that it did fps on console better than anything at the time

nobody mentions the time to kill or the battle rifle vs the pistol or whatever, and honestly i dont think people would generally care about the TTK because when people think about halo that is usually the last thing on their mind

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35 minutes ago, Aphex Twin said:

What about h2 and 3? Those games didnt have the same levels of survivability that advanced movement provides. I think if H3 was remade it would flop - hasnt aged well in the era of fast TTKs. Ex halo pros shit all over H3 on Twitter, and H2A was unable to retain a population. 

If you think shedding 30% of your playerbase is no big deal, then dont work in business. I guarantee Bungie and 343 never made the argument to MS execs that their games' population numbers were a success, nor should they have. 

 

1 minute ago, Killmachine said:

truth be told halo exists in the public consciousness rn as a game that they feel nostalgic for and was about its atmosphere, if a halo clip or meme goes viral people inevitably in the comments start talking of how it was what they and their friends did, the music, the environments, the story, and ofc the fact that it did fps on console better than anything at the time

nobody mentions the time to kill or the battle rifle vs the pistol or whatever, and honestly i dont think people would generally care about the TTK because when people think about halo that is usually the last thing on their mind

Exactly! This guy talks about TTK when no one cares about that. Heck’s even competitive players don’t normally. 

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Players enjoy fast TTKs in FPS games with unlimited respawns, whether they realize it or not.

If this weren't true, CS, CoD, and Valorant would have small playerbases compared to Halo. 

3 slow TTK halo games have been unable to retain a playerbase comparable to pre-2010 population levels. We are about to witness this happen for a 4th time. 

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8 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

Exactly! This guy talks about TTK when no one cares about that. Heck’s even competitive players don’t normally. 

You're insane if you think people don't care about TTK. It's probably the main reason why CoD surpassed Halo's popularity.

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1 minute ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

You're insane if you think people don't care about TTK. It's probably the main reason why CoD surpassed Halo's popularity.

While TTK is a component, I feel like “game pace” better describes why.  

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40 minutes ago, Aphex Twin said:

Players enjoy fast TTKs in FPS games with unlimited respawns, whether they realize it or not.

If this weren't true, CS, CoD, and Valorant would have small playerbases compared to Halo. 

3 slow TTK halo games have been unable to retain a playerbase comparable to pre-2010 population levels. We are about to witness this happen for a 4th time. 

You could be right about that. But I would debate it’s for entirely different reasons. Csgo is a military shooter which people expect to kill in little bullets. Halo is a bit different 

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42 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

You're insane if you think people don't care about TTK. It's probably the main reason why CoD surpassed Halo's popularity.

Ok my wording was off, but the TTK being fast is more expected from call of duty because of specific traits of the game. Halo is not like that because of the sci-fi aspect, the Spartan suits, and it’s past games h2&3 having obviously higher ttk. No one expects halo to have cod TTK. Heck’s if it did people would still play cod more because cod will have done it better 

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

While TTK is a component, I feel like “game pace” better describes why.  

Ehh I see where you're coming from, but I think Halo is a faster-paced game than CoD. Encounters-per-minute is wayyyyy higher in earlier Halos, mainly due to the size of maps and movement speed. I think CoD is genuinely only seen as "faster" because of kill times.

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1 hour ago, Reamis25 said:

No one expects halo to have cod TTK. 

Few people have any expectations for halo at all, most dont care about the franchise. The population trends dont lie. 

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Minimum TTK and minimum-average TTK delta are relatively insignificant in the initial phase of playerbase capture.

The initial phase of playerbase capture is moreso "Is it free? Can I get it on my platform? How much hype is there surrounding it? Are my favorite streamers playing it? Is the game pretty and do the basic gamemodes + features have appeal?" and so on. 

When the focus shifts towards long-term playerbase capture, factors like satisfaction, ample content and frequent updates, daily/weekly/long-term player goals, competition, and finally skillgap + learning curve are made significant. 

Skillgap isn't even most of it. That's why Halo games with shit-tier settings were the most played, because they usually did everything else very well. Halo has to capitalize on both the Reach kid-esque crowd who care more about flashy colors than gameplay quality, and the semi-sweaty crowd who'll try to get their 5-star generals in every playlist and sink a tremendous amount of time into Halo. 

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1 hour ago, _Synapse said:

Minimum TTK and minimum-average TTK delta are relatively insignificant in the initial phase of playerbase capture.

The initial phase of playerbase capture is moreso "Is it free? Can I get it on my platform? How much hype is there surrounding it? Are my favorite streamers playing it? Is the game pretty and do the basic gamemodes + features have appeal?" and so on. 

When the focus shifts towards long-term playerbase capture, factors like satisfaction, ample content and frequent updates, daily/weekly/long-term player goals, competition, and finally skillgap + learning curve are made significant. 

Skillgap isn't even most of it. That's why Halo games with shit-tier settings were the most played, because they usually did everything else very well. Halo has to capitalize on both the Reach kid-esque crowd who care more about flashy colors than gameplay quality, and the semi-sweaty crowd who'll try to get their 5-star generals in every playlist and sink a tremendous amount of time into Halo. 

Couldn’t have said it better, 

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4 hours ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

You're insane if you think people don't care about TTK. It's probably the main reason why CoD surpassed Halo's popularity.

I have friends who play CoD but hate Cold War because it takes so long to take out opponents, saying it's almost like Warzone in MW where people have additional armor plates. So yeah, TTK is probably a big deal.

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2 hours ago, _Synapse said:

Minimum TTK and minimum-average TTK delta are relatively insignificant in the initial phase of playerbase capture.

The initial phase of playerbase capture is moreso "Is it free? Can I get it on my platform? 

Agreed, factors like TTK are much more important for player retention vs getting people to play on day 1. 

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11 hours ago, Boyo said:

If the sidearm mechanic was implemented in such a way that equipping the holstered utility weapon caused the user to drop his currently equipped weapon, it would still force the user to expend all the pick-up-weapon’s ammo before switching back to the utility weapon because switching back drops the pick-up-weapon.  This could also be used by teams to pass weapons between each other, like a dedicated Weapon Drop mechanic.  

I mean that is so close to the current system that it's just needlessly complicating it.

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