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The Plasma Repeater doesn’t have a magazine to reload so the X button doesn’t do anything.  

Holding X sends a Hologram running forward.  Doubling tapping X creates two holograms that flank the user on either side, mimicking his movements.  

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4 hours ago, _Synapse said:

There's two components to integrity, imo. 

A: The ratio of the average strength of a pickup to the amount of effort required to obtain it. 

B: The ratio of the strength of a pickup relative to the amount of effort required to operate it (AKA, Mechanical/Predictive Skill). 

In an AFPS, almost all pickups have to make use of both A and B. A is kind of inevitable by definition in AFPS design and can result in matches that eventually become asymmetric in terms of difficulty (One team gaining map control, or controlling a power item, or getting the enemy team choked into a shit spawn). 

I don't think this is necessarily bad for AFPS. Let alone bad, I don't think you can remove it from AFPS. Even if you watch Quake duels, it's fairly common for otherwise-close games to spiral out of control for either player who dies once. 

@Xandrith

That is probably one of, if not the worst aspect of arena shooters like quake. They are, super super snowbally. Not a good thing. 

 

 

I don't know why you guys are listing off these oddly generic ways to attempt to fight a camo player when that kinda misses the point. You've all seen the videos and posts trying to defend thrust and all the stupid hypotheticals to fight against that and clamber and rockets and whatever. You could explain away in text how to fight against literally anything in a game no matter how broken. You wouldn't put a camo on a 1v1 map. Why? Because it's broken. It takes practically 0 effort to use, and even if you ignore every single way to "play with camo better" it's still a massive advantage. 

 

@Hard Way

 

I don't see how spawming with camo has anything to do with whether or not it's fair. I'm not arguing about whether or not it's fun to fight over an item, that could literally be applied to anything. If it's broken in Reach its broken in CE. Why does the fact that it loses potency in Reach when you walk somehow make it more frustrating? Doesn't that apply to CE as well? Couldn't I grab camo on sammy and then just choose a random corner to sit in a little while until you walk by me? And then I keep that potency while moving? It's not skillful to use at all. It's a broken and one sided mechanic. I don't understand how could dislike Halo 5s weapon upgrading off of every spawn but view a powerup that gives a blatant avantage as any different than picking up a broken power weapon. 

 

 

Just to repeat - I still think CE is the best designed  console shooter ever made, and probably just the best designed shooter period. There's just so many aspects of it that can still get waaaay better that Halo has always been fairly shallow about. Powerups should introduce skill when you pick them up the same way picking up the Reach grenade launcher introduced skill. You could be very dangerous, and do new things you couldn't before, but it should have a skill cost. Powerups have never had this. 

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4 hours ago, _Synapse said:

There's two components to integrity, imo. 

A: The ratio of the average strength of a pickup to the amount of effort required to obtain it. 

B: The ratio of the strength of a pickup relative to the amount of effort required to operate it (AKA, Mechanical/Predictive Skill). 

In an AFPS, almost all pickups have to make use of both A and B. A is kind of inevitable by definition in AFPS design and can result in matches that eventually become asymmetric in terms of difficulty (One team gaining map control, or controlling a power item, or getting the enemy team choked into a shit spawn). 

I don't think this is necessarily bad for AFPS. Let alone bad, I don't think you can remove it from AFPS. Even if you watch Quake duels, it's fairly common for otherwise-close games to spiral out of control for either player who dies once. 

@Xandrith

The problem with only looking at ratios is that you have no foundation, no starting point. I agree with your points, but the reason that proportionate rewards are good can be understood at a deeper level, at a moral level. It's justice. We all get what we earn. When you look at things that way, you see the need for predictability and for the removal of anything random, because for each to get what he earns, intentionality must be available, and so accurate deduction must also be accessible at all times. That's why multiplayer design is objective. 

And, I know that fighting over pickups has been an idea formed from the start of competitive FPS titles, but I don't think it's a good thing. Frst of all, it's just not hard to time when an item is spawning every 2 minutes, so abiding only by a porportionate ratio, a pickup has no business being as powerful as a rocket. You don't deserve 4 free kills as a result of winning one fight, because winning the fight IS the reward! In slayer for sure, and even in objective modes. You would call me insane if, in a game of 2v2, I suggested that one team would get 6 points for winning a fight within a time window every 2 minutes. But - that's what a win over rockets really is, because it is a brainlessly powerful weapon that hands the player free kills, which is the opposite of integrity. And, if the same thing happens in quake, it's just as wrong as in Halo. Quake doesn't get a free pass nor is it the ultimate example of good design.

Furthermore, in Halo or quake (especially quake) you can bum-rush pickups, and it often works out as a result of kill times. I think fighting over pickups sounds nice, it sounds deep, and we've been talking about it for 20 years so we all really believe it, but I actually don't think it's as important in reality as it is in our heads. I remember like 3 years ago playing Quake with Multi on a daily basis, and I started to realize how stupid our fights over items were. Like, really dumb, and it got even worse when we played ranked. Then I went back to Halo and saw similar things. I just always considered fighting over pickups to be vital to an FPS like everyone else, but when you actually think about what is happening... it's really not. Now, I think pickup spawns dumb down Halo, because in the moments they are available or becoming available, if it's something like camo or rockets, you have no choice but to go for them or defend them if you don't want to get rolled over by a snowball. (this is somewhat alleviated by grenades in CE) Even then, the following minute or two of the game is also made worse because of these overrewarding weapons and powerups that are now in play. Then, when you are finally free from the influence of power weapons, players become much more involved with one another, use the entire level, and use more skillful weapons like the pistol. I know nobody is going to agree with me on this, but it's just one of those things that we list off as vitally important when, upon a close look, reveals itself to be a detriment if integrity is the goal. It's just one of those things that has been repeated over and over and over and over again for as long as FPS games have been out, and I think we've all been fooled by it.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

I don't see how spawming with camo has anything to do with whether or not it's fair.

Because a huge part of countering the lone camo enemy is knowing when and where he will originate from.  

 

14 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

I know that fighting over pickups has been an idea formed from the start of competitive FPS titles, but I don't think it's a good thing.

IceBeastv2

 

Could you reconcile these two statements for me?  

I am in favor of non-recharging health because it doesn’t erase the consequences of past fights.  

I am not in favor of power weapons because I don’t like facing the consequences of past fights.  

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10 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Because a huge part of countering the lone camo enemy is knowing when and where he will originate from.

You can get anywhere on any map during a camo duration. 

 

10 minutes ago, Boyo said:

IceBeastv2

Lol. Ice and Beast didn't like the cheesier elements of Halo and resorted to wanting no other weapons or anything on the map. They missed the real source of their frustration which ISN'T other weapons and items existing - but instead being killed by things that don't merit kills or require effort. All we're saying is powerups should be held to the same standard as weapons. You don't want to just upgraded your player and make them blatantly better for picking up a gun. You shouldn't either by picking up a powerup like camo or os. 

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9 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Because a huge part of countering the lone camo enemy is knowing when and where he will originate from.  

 

IceBeastv2

If you lose a fight for camo, the enemy could be literally anywhere by time you're back up. If you spot him, then predict his movement wrong even once, the enemy has time to go almost anywhere. If you focus on fighting his teammates, camo guy could be anywhere by time you're done. Cross-map teleporters alone ensure this, and a map scaled well for 2v2 does the same.

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Do forge kids still want power ups to drop on death or have you guys gotten over that?  

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

Do forge kids still want power ups to drop on death or have you guys gotten over that?  

Must you have such a condescending tone, young child?

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22 minutes ago, NavG123 said:

Must you have such a condescending tone, young child?

What do you think about the relationship between non-recharging health and power items?  Players who survive encounters are typically rewarded with item control but at the cost of reduced health.  Is this a fair trade?  

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7 minutes ago, Boyo said:

What do you think about the relationship between non-recharging health and power items?  Players who survive encounters are typically rewarded with item control but at the cost of reduced health.  Is this a fair trade?  

Seems like an odd mechanic.

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18 minutes ago, NavG123 said:

Seems like an odd mechanic.

How do you feel about the PAT in football?  Do you think it’s unfair?  The team already scored.  There is no need to give them extra points that they didn’t earn.  

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8 minutes ago, Boyo said:

How do you feel about the PAT in football?  Do you think it’s unfair?  The team already scored.  There is no need to give them extra points that they didn’t earn.  

They have to successfully kick the PAT while stopping the other team from blocking it. I can argue that they do earn the point.

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In Invasion, High Ranking Officers act as buddy spawns for their entire team and, as such foundational members of the team, are given various enhancements intended to prolong their life.  This style of enhancement gives the user the ability to manually modify his player model.  

 

Transformations 

 

The Spartan Commander cannot crouch.  Instead, L3 activates Armor Lock, giving teammates a chance to rally around the commander and save their mobile spawn point.  

 

The Elite Field Marshall can crouch.  In fact, he activates camo by crouching and remaining stationary.  Since he also carries a Bubble Shield and Energy Sword, enemies must treat even empty bubble shields as a deadly threats because they could contain an invisible, sword-wielding Field Marshall.  The wide berth enemies give the bubble shield allows the Field Marshall to stay alive and act as the spawn beacon he is meant to be.  

 

The Brute Chieftain can activate a piece of equipment that transforms his player model into a flat, nearly invisible vehicle that glides over the ground like a shadow (this form alone allows him to zip around unnoticed, dropping buddy-spawners off at various locations around the map).  From the default movement-form, the user can transform into a pit that swallows players or a golem to smash and spit at them (golem is the upper body of the chieftain but larger and made of sand).  

 

The Promethean Alpha can activate an armor ability that transforms its player model into a smaller ball that can roll around and jump but not attack (no head means no headshots so precision weapons take longer to kill it).  The reduced size of the Sphere allows the user to access shortcuts that bipeds cannot.  Not only do these shortcuts carry the sphere to new areas but also all of its buddy-spawning teammates.  

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4 hours ago, Boyo said:

Do forge kids still want power ups to drop on death or have you guys gotten over that?  

Weird generalization to make. I've been around the forge community for about 13 years and have never heard that sentiment broadly, maybe once ever. But if the powerup is bullshit than obviously dropping it on death isn't a good idea, I played against enough quad damage in quake to know that. 

4 hours ago, Boyo said:

Could you reconcile these two statements for me?  

I am in favor of non-recharging health because it doesn’t erase the consequences of past fights.  

I am not in favor of power weapons because I don’t like facing the consequences of past fights.  

You're missing the root cause again. It doesn't really have anything to do with consequences. 

 

Obviously someone grabbing a power weapon after killing you and then rolling you with is dumb the same way killstreaks are dumb. But you're attributing that someone picking up an item after killing you is the issue, it's not. The problem is that the item is too strong. If I went to pick up some frag grenades and you went to do the same thing, we met each other, I killed you and picked them up, and then used them to get a really crazy banked grenade shot on you our next fight - you would not be like "that's dumb he won the last fight so he picked up frags and killed me that's snowballing". Snowballing implies it gets easier, you got better, you have an advantage. Picking up an item after killing someone should be fine so long as it makes you different, not better. 

 

No recharging health ensures the game state is more accurately represented, aka your skill is actually portrayed properly. Let me give you a hypothetical : you have 100% accuracy and 100HP, I have the same health and 90% accuracy. We play to 10 kills. 

 

With recharging health, you will win every fight and the game ends 10-0 even though I almost had you dead every single time.  

 

With non recharging health, I die first and leave you with 10 HP, respawn and hit the last shot while also taking 10 HP damage in return. This continues, the game ends 10-9. You won, but barely. Just as you barely won every fight.  That is a more accurate, and more fair representation of what's going on. And to be honest when you look at it in this light recharging health seems to be more snowbally. If you were BARELY behind another racer on a track every time they finished a lap, by the end of the 5th lap you might have completed 4 laps and some change when your opponent wins. Recharging health in this example would be like every time they BARELY beat you to the finish line of a lap, all your progress was wiped and they'd start everyone back at the starting line for lap 2. The race would end and you would've never completed 1 lap. Does that sound fair to you. 

 

 

Let me reiterate that I don't actually hate recharging health, I just think it poses a lot of balance issues to Halo and I think there are more intelligent ways to build a health system. 

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2 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

The problem is that the item is too strong. If I went to pick up some frag grenades and you went to do the same thing, we met each other,

But I wouldn’t be going to pick up frag grenades.  Because they’re not strong enough to warrant me going out of my way to do so.  
 

I believe this is called a conundrum.  

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

But I wouldn’t be going to pick up frag grenades.  Because they’re not strong enough to warrant me going out of my way to do so.  
 

I believe this is called a conundrum.  

Well that misses the point. Maybe you weren't picking up frags. Maybe we just saw each other and I killed you and then picked up a plasma that spawned nearby and used it to land a cross map stick on your next life. That's not snowballing because I didn't get better, I just became different. 

 

Also your argument here is that you wouldn't go out of your way to pick up something that wasn't distinctly better, which is wrong. Most of the CE sandbox is like this way, and the older gears of war games as well. You can have very powerful items that people don't pick up because they're too hard. I usually don't pick up sniper in Chill Out, I'm just not good enough to effectively use it. I'd rather just pistol. But that doesn't mean people wouldn't pick it up. I also usually avoid the torque bow in gears because I know I'll miss the shot, but a lot of people still rush it. You're just having a hard time imagining it because video games on the whole have been designed SO shitty that there's really not many precedents for it. 

 

Also, not having really strong things spawning to drive you to move to certain areas isn't a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with letting players just figure out how they want to play each other and making their own uninfluenced movement choices. 

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Item Control needs to be strong enough that it can pull players away from Position Control.  

Spawn Control should supersede both because they are just indirect ways of helping you get kills where spawn trapping is drinking straight from the source.  

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13 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Also, not having really strong things spawning to drive you to move to certain areas isn't a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with letting players just figure out how they want to play each other and making their own uninfluenced movement choices. 

 

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19 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

Glitches don’t count as features I’ll add 

I'm not sure what you mean? He was on the Multiplayer UX design lead. He worked with the Xbox Live team to integrate Halo 2 features with Xbox 360 standard features (friends lists for example). Lobbies/parties/matchmaking all had to be designed from the ground up again to work with the new Xbox Live architecture. But he sat down and did it with his team and Halo 3 launched with more features than Halo 2. 

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12 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Item Control needs to be strong enough that it can pull players away from Position Control.  

Spawn Control should supersede both because they are just indirect ways of helping you get kills where spawn trapping is drinking straight from the source.  

 

1 minute ago, Boyo said:

 

Again Boyo.  You're not addressing the root issue here. Which would be that you just don't design shitty maps with power positions. There are about a hundred good forge maps I could recommend to you if you'd like that all self balance through the geometry and not spawning ridiculous weapons to try and get you to move.  Otherwise you end up doing the same thing I've seen a hundred crappy designers do to solve problems which by introducing another problem. 

 

You put a weapon on a map to help break a setup and make people move. Now you're fighting against stupid weapons, powerups, AND the player in the power position. How are you going to break into snipe tower on Lockout when the team there is holding sniper sword and shotgun? What do you do? You just made your problem twice as bad. Congrats. 

 

343 recognized sprinting helps escape and made your shield progress reset while you reset. Now people STILL run away anyways and if you chase them you stay weak yourself. 

 

Treyarch wanted to try and solve the fact that they lost 90% of call of dutys player base after about 3 MP matches so they introduced the specialists in BO4 with the tracking shock drone and attack dog to make bad players feel good. Bad players still left and everyone is left playing against the stupid shit. 

 

Bungie didn't want players dieing during the revive animation in Destiny so they added some stupid ass over shield to the revived player AND his teammates that is legitimately an advantage a lot of the times. They could've just removed the stupid animation and let you take control of your player but they solved it by introducing another problem. 

 

You need to tackle problems at the root. That's what good designers do. Otherwise your game is going to have a lot of issues that aren't REALLY solved. 

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Whether you design “power positions” or not, some places on the map are going to be more advantageous than others.  Why would I leave an advantageous spot if there wasn’t something more advantageous that I had the opportunity of acquiring?  
 

The game is 45-45.  Do I keep my reticle trained on the doorway or do I stroll around the map so I can get ambushed and killed?  I need a reason to risk going for a stroll.  Without pick ups, what is that reason?  

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12 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Whether you design “power positions” or not, some places on the map are going to be more advantageous than others.  Why would I leave an advantageous spot if there wasn’t something more advantageous that I had the opportunity of acquiring?  
 

The game is 45-45.  Do I keep my reticle trained on the doorway or do I stroll around the map so I can get ambushed and killed?  I need a reason to risk going for a stroll.  Without pick ups, what is that reason?  

Boyo. You can design maps that are self balanced without items to drive movement, the same way you can play rock paper scissors and every play has something it beats and something that beats it. 

 

I don't even blame you for not being able to imagine such a thing, it's really sad that game design has been so bad that people can't fathom the idea of a map that just works. 

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I don't think using items to facilitate movement makes a map bad, but if those items are so overwhelmingly strong that it creates a snowball effect there is a problem. 

 

I think CE does the best at this in Halo, but it's not perfect. Camo could be less powerful in some way, Overshield could be weaker. I don't play much Halo anymore and only plan to play Infinite cause of the free MP, but it is something that is an issue with Halo. But it's a far cry from power weapon = bad

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1 hour ago, _Synapse said:

People out here actually defending dual wielding in 2021

It was good in Halo 2 if you were doing SMG starts so you weren't completely screwed against a BR. In Halo 3 they made it nearly worthless though.  Also it's just fun in general to do sometimes.

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