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Halo Infinite Discussion

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1 hour ago, TeeJaY said:

So apparently Infinite won't have multiple different biomes like desert, snow, swamp, etc. The entire ring will just be forest. Kind of a missed opportunity there, but that's about what I'd expect from these people. 

Yeah if that's true that's actually a huge mistake. Would be more than embarrassing given the length of time since the last game it would be the first gameplay related moment where you start to ask "Sooo what have you actually been doing all of this time?" rather than it just being speculation based on us getting impatient with the long wait. First game in the series actually to do that.

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1 hour ago, TeeJaY said:

So apparently Infinite won't have multiple different biomes like desert, snow, swamp, etc. The entire ring will just be forest. Kind of a missed opportunity there, but that's about what I'd expect from these people. 

One of the reasons halo 3s campaign is so good is because each level is so visually unique. Sad that 343 can't top a game from 13 years ago.

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They said there would be a marshy type of region and different variants of the pacific northwest region we have seen (different altitudes etc.). This along with things like caves and Forerunner, Banished, and human structures are what they talked about when it came to variety in the environment. 

I expect other major biomes to be added in expansions, if they still want this to be a "10 year game." 

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18 minutes ago, NAK said:

They said there would be a marshy type of region and different variants of the pacific northwest region we have seen (different altitudes etc.). This along with things like caves and Forerunner, Banished, and human structures are what they talked about when it came to variety in the environment. 

I expect other major biomes to be added in expansions, if they still want this to be a "10 year game." 

And at least the day/night cycle is a thing. Wandering Halo at night is always a treat. I hope they eventually add dynamic weather as well.

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I think I wanted their night time to be darker from the screenshots. Maybe not literally pitch black but I'm always a fan of the games that make night feel like night. Sometimes people are concerned it will reduce gameplay quality but in this case we're literally a spartan in the Halo universe I'm sure we can get a night vision toggle

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18 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I think I wanted their night time to be darker from the screenshots. Maybe not literally pitch black but I'm always a fan of the games that make night feel like night. Sometimes people are concerned it will reduce gameplay quality but in this case we're literally a spartan in the Halo universe I'm sure we can get a night vision toggle

What if they brought back the VISR system from ODST?

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8 minutes ago, TeeJaY said:

What if they brought back the VISR system from ODST?

That works too just as well or even better. The genre is perfect for pretty much any solution they want

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1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

I think I wanted their night time to be darker from the screenshots. Maybe not literally pitch black but I'm always a fan of the games that make night feel like night. Sometimes people are concerned it will reduce gameplay quality but in this case we're literally a spartan in the Halo universe I'm sure we can get a night vision toggle

The same thing came to mind when I saw those screenshots. The way they were talking about it in the Q&A made it seem like it will feel much more like "night" than in the picture though.

Also, looking at the screenshot they posted it is a clear night in a rather open location. They were talking about how the skybox is an actual 3d model so how much light or shadow is in an area is completely dependent on clouds and the surrounding. I'd expect some places to be much darker based on those factors (hopefully at least).

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12 hours ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

Genuinely curious what your definition of "dance" is. I can agree that other games have variations of a "dance", but there aren't many games I can think of that produce the straight up strafe battles that you see in earlier Halo games.

Jumping, shooting and nading. That is the dance. No need to overcomplicate it.

Strafe battles are even more of a factor in a lot of arena shooters.

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The marketing campaign for Infinite seems kinda lack luster. We need Halo 3 level marketing for this game.

They need to partner with PepsiCo and have a MTN Dew game fuel flavor for Infinite. The pringles/chips ahoy thing is cool, but mountain dew and Halo are an unmatchable dewo.:kappa:

Also, the moa burger flavor is actually bomb af. Recommend those that dare to try them.

Can't wait to be disappointed on release day so I can pull an all nighter while I stuff my face with moa burger pringles and slam 50 monsters as I rage and curse at 343 for fucking up Halo again. Its tradition at this point even if I have no hope for Halo MP. (The campaign actually sounds sick af and am very optimistic)

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1 hour ago, Edain said:

The marketing campaign for Infinite seems kinda lack luster. We need Halo 3 level marketing for this game.

They need to partner with PepsiCo and have a MTN Dew game fuel flavor for Infinite. The pringles/chips ahoy thing is cool, but mountain dew and Halo are an unmatchable dewo.:kappa:

Also, the moa burger flavor is actually bomb af. Recommend those that dare to try them.

Can't wait to be disappointed on release day so I can pull an all nighter while I stuff my face with moa burger pringles and slam 50 monsters as I rage and curse at 343 for fucking up Halo again. Its tradition at this point even if I have no hope for Halo MP. (The campaign actually sounds sick af and am very optimistic)

Yeah that's pretty much where I am. I truthfully don't expect a lot from mp at this point but the campaign actually does look interesting to me. Obviously I'll play both but to keep it real the last fun Halo release multiplayer wise was 2007 if I'm just judging gameplay and not the people I get on and play with

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I totally forgot about their plan to have this be a "10 year game." lol 

Even if they include 6 years of development, I suspect they'll fall short by 2 years. 

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Run, Jump, Crouch 

Gun, Grenade, Melee 

Position control, Item control, Spawn control 

You use the first group so the second group can do the third group.  

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12 hours ago, TeeJaY said:

What if they brought back the VISR system from ODST?

What does visor do exactly?  Outline stuff?  

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1 hour ago, Kr0ni said:

I totally forgot about their plan to have this be a "10 year game." lol 

Even if they include 6 years of development, I suspect they'll fall short by 2 years. 

Not to be toxic but even 2 years would be impressive. Halo has been basically flopping after a couple months tops and then sets in multiple years worth of long time fans slowly not playing

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2 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

Not to be toxic but even 2 years would be impressive. Halo has been basically flopping after a couple months tops and then sets in multiple years worth of long time fans slowly not playing

That’s because I suspect they’ve stopped caring about creating a game with integrity and are just going to keep pumping out a lot of mediocre, shallow content to hopefully keep players interested.  A never ending Spartan-Ops campaign isn’t inherently bad but it won’t be great.  Expect multiple multiplayer weapon updates that completely rebuild the meta.  

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If there's a Halo that still exist its with Halo 3.

If theres a Halo game that still exists its only Bungies Halo and thats the only purpose and why MCC was created. 

I think we can say even though these games have Halo on them they arnt really Halo.

Thats why mainly all these issues stem.

 

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On 3/11/2021 at 5:54 PM, MultiLockOn said:

So, first of all I respect your arguments. And I know you have a lot of game knowledge and I respect that. Imma hit you with some counter arguments I want your thoughts on. 

 

1: Do you like constantly fighting players with camo in Reach every match? And before you argue that it's different because it's an armor ability; that shouldn't really make a difference. Fighting against it, if fun and skillful and all that, should hold the same principles in Reach as it does CE. But I don't think anyone enjoys fighting against players invis constantly because it's not something inherently skillful or fair to utilize. I think you listed a lot of what-ifs and cool ways it makes you be skillful to answer someone using it but you could do that about any mechanic. Shyway rambles on about a hundred cool uses and counters to thrust and clamber every time it's mentioned but it kinda misses the point. 

 

2: if you don't like the idea of players picking up upgrades to their weapon on the map, why are powerups any different. It straight up makes you WAY better the same way picking up an incineration cannon, perhaps moreso honestly because you're not sacrificing anything or dropping a weapon to make room for it. Powerups ideally should carry the same principles as weapons being that they can be extremely potent if you have the skill to utilize them. I just think of OS and camo the same way I see all the power weapons in H5. They're crazy strong with no downsides and really difficult to fight against but not to use. 

I think it's also worth mentioning how often I KNOW someone is in front of me and can actually see them but you don't get aim assist on camo players so it's difficult to even do anything about it. That's a weird interaction, and obviously with mkb not needing aim friction it's not even a mechanic that'll hold the same potency across platforms. 

 

For the record, I'm not against powerups. And I think CE has been and still is the most skillful and best designed console game we've seen, and probably high up there in the rankings with ANY game. I just think it also could be way, way better. 

1. C'mon man. You can't say spawning with it doesn't make a difference. It makes all the difference. Plus, it only works right when you're standing still in Reach, which also makes it lame to play against.  Let's look at the two most annoying and effective ways it gets used in Reach: Sniping from across the map, and corner camping.  In CE, if you grab camo, grab snipe, and go to your sniping spot, you've already used most of your camo, and you deserve whatever you can get with the time you have left. You actually earned it.  Secondly, corner camping (waiting for people to walk by). You have to go get the camo (where everyone knows where and when it spawned), go to your corner, wait, and hope no one deduces that there. You're wasting precious seconds.  Playing against camo in Reach plays almost nothing like playing against it in CE or even H3.

But for the sake of argument, let's pretend hitting the button gave you a CE camo. That would certainly be more fun to use, but it would be too OP to always have to play against. It's too much reward for a menu selection. I don't mind a powerup giving a single person something very unique and powerful, since everyone knows where it spawns, when it spawns, how long it lasts, and what you can do with it. You have to earn it in CE, and you don't in Reach. In my mind, that's enough. And before we slippery-slope that into some BS 1hk damage boost powerup, I think camo's power is kept in check by its limitations and counterplay.

I also disagree that camo doesn't take any inherent skill to utilize. I internally groan when I play with my local friends and one of them gets the camo that cycle. I know they aren't gonna get much out of it. They'll choose their fights poorly. They won't recloak effectively. They won't know when to disengage. They won't know when to not shoot bc the enemy is looking at them. They won't know when to stand still to avoid getting spotted. Yes, anybody can use it to get first shot, but it takes a tremendous amount of discretion to get good, long use out of camo.

2. Why are powerups okay, but pre-patch H5 BR/DMR aren't? Well, unlike weapons, powerups only last for 45 seconds. They expand the sandbox rather than create redundant clutter that could have been used to offer an unique experience. They aren't always available. They're more highly contested. They force you to play a different way (seek plasma weapons for OS, think like the camo player and predict his path).

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to powerups coming with downsides. I wouldn't hate a 25% reduction in max shield when you have camo, or a 5% movement speed penalty with OS. If you feel powerups need some sort of tradeoff to force players to play differently when they have it (rather than it just being a mindless passive upgrade), I might not hate that. Personally I feel like the responsibility you have on your shoulders when you get a powerup is enough to make you cherish it and play smart with it.

On 3/11/2021 at 5:56 PM, Xandrith said:

I disagree that predictability and counterplay are not present against camo

Again, there's always counterplay to any pickup. The important question is about the degree at which you can effectively counter something. It should be all the time. With that in mind, why is camo good? Because it offers one party the element of surprise via invisibility, which is just the inverse of saying that the player facing camo is at a disadvantage precisely because he lacks the ability to track his opponent visually. He's camouflaged! We can split hairs all day long about my exact verbiage regarding camo, but nevertheless unpredictability is built into the pickup. Unpredictability- the element of surprise, is why it's good, and that's also why it sucks to play against.

I think you're conflating "I struggle to see him" with "I can't predict him". Most people usually can't see camo, but it's possible to make it very difficult for the camo player to use it well, if you predict what he wants to do with it, and where he wants to go with it. I remember losing a camo after getting a 2-down on Derelict one time at Devilman's LAN, because I bee-lined to rockets after grabbing it. They knew Dman had OS, so they knew I wouldn't be going there. They got a top spawn, scoped in on my path, and lit me up fully cloaked across the map. I couldn't believe it. Dman, unphased, was just like "well they knew you were gonna go to rockets...". That helped me have a much higher degree of respect for the decisions you need to make with camo against good players. Unpredictability isn't some debuff you're afflicted with against camo. Prediction is your best weapon against it.

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3 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

Not to be toxic but even 2 years would be impressive. Halo has been basically flopping after a couple months tops and then sets in multiple years worth of long time fans slowly not playing

This is true but I wouldn’t underestimate the potential player base of a f2p triple A title. And if this BTB 2.0 is a chaotic big war mode(32,,50,64, or 100 or more(doubt it) then you best believe that would attract tons. 
also marketing I suspect won’t pick up until June or July which is when gameplay will more than likely be shown once again. 

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The key for infinite to be a success is lots of grinding and social elements of the game. As as well as weekly to monthly updates of content. 343 has already confirmed this is a live service game and usually live service games get weekly updates. Hopefully the gameplay can satisfy new generations of players and old and current, but if they can get the grind, social elements, and continued updates of content and fixes and balance patches(which they said they’ll do this time around) we can have a potential game this time. 
@Aphex Twin please stop listing low TTK as if we’d have guns with 0 bullet magnetism whose projectile speeds be slow enough where the strafe can truly make bullets miss in cqc to medium ranges. They’d be like fast projectiles where they’re like apex where you need to lead at long ranges but in cqc hitting your opponent be no problem. They already said they want us to be strong and when they talked about feeling safe on spawn I believe they simply meant 2 things. 1 you’re never spawning in an opponents line of fire. H5 did this decently well where you couldn’t hardscope with the sniper and shoot and it be a kill like previous games.  2. This is a bit far fetched but a 1 second invincibility, this could work if it ends immediately the moment you start firing or moving. If the game gives us a utility with a low TTK which I believe would be .9-1.2 seconds at best. H5 utility was 1.3 I believe? So we’re not too far away from a fast TTK utility. 

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3 hours ago, Hard Way said:

1. C'mon man. You can't say spawning with it doesn't make a difference. It makes all the difference. Plus, it only works right when you're standing still in Reach, which also makes it lame to play against.  Let's look at the two most annoying and effective ways it gets used in Reach: Sniping from across the map, and corner camping.  In CE, if you grab camo, grab snipe, and go to your sniping spot, you've already used most of your camo, and you deserve whatever you can get with the time you have left. You actually earned it.  Secondly, corner camping (waiting for people to walk by). You have to go get the camo (where everyone knows where and when it spawned), go to your corner, wait, and hope no one deduces that there. You're wasting precious seconds.  Playing against camo in Reach plays almost nothing like playing against it in CE or even H3.

But for the sake of argument, let's pretend hitting the button gave you a CE camo. That would certainly be more fun to use, but it would be too OP to always have to play against. It's too much reward for a menu selection. I don't mind a powerup giving a single person something very unique and powerful, since everyone knows where it spawns, when it spawns, how long it lasts, and what you can do with it. You have to earn it in CE, and you don't in Reach. In my mind, that's enough. And before we slippery-slope that into some BS 1hk damage boost powerup, I think camo's power is kept in check by its limitations and counterplay.

I also disagree that camo doesn't take any inherent skill to utilize. I internally groan when I play with my local friends and one of them gets the camo that cycle. I know they aren't gonna get much out of it. They'll choose their fights poorly. They won't recloak effectively. They won't know when to disengage. They won't know when to not shoot bc the enemy is looking at them. They won't know when to stand still to avoid getting spotted. Yes, anybody can use it to get first shot, but it takes a tremendous amount of discretion to get good, long use out of camo.

2. Why are powerups okay, but pre-patch H5 BR/DMR aren't? Well, unlike weapons, powerups only last for 45 seconds. They expand the sandbox rather than create redundant clutter that could have been used to offer an unique experience. They aren't always available. They're more highly contested. They force you to play a different way (seek plasma weapons for OS, think like the camo player and predict his path).

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to powerups coming with downsides. I wouldn't hate a 25% reduction in max shield when you have camo, or a 5% movement speed penalty with OS. If you feel powerups need some sort of tradeoff to force players to play differently when they have it (rather than it just being a mindless passive upgrade), I might not hate that. Personally I feel like the responsibility you have on your shoulders when you get a powerup is enough to make you cherish it and play smart with it.

I think you're conflating "I struggle to see him" with "I can't predict him". Most people usually can't see camo, but it's possible to make it very difficult for the camo player to use it well, if you predict what he wants to do with it, and where he wants to go with it. I remember losing a camo after getting a 2-down on Derelict one time at Devilman's LAN, because I bee-lined to rockets after grabbing it. They knew Dman had OS, so they knew I wouldn't be going there. They got a top spawn, scoped in on my path, and lit me up fully cloaked across the map. I couldn't believe it. Dman, unphased, was just like "well they knew you were gonna go to rockets...". That helped me have a much higher degree of respect for the decisions you need to make with camo against good players. Unpredictability isn't some debuff you're afflicted with against camo. Prediction is your best weapon against it.

At this point we're talking in circles, because I've already addressed how you can play around any pickup to a certain degree, and therefore how individual cases do not justify the design of camo when it is compared to the ideals of integrity. You could list off 30 more times you predicted camo, but it doesn't matter. The objective purpose of the item is to camouflage a player. This is obvious, but you seem reluctant to even acknowledge it, which I understand. If you did agree to camos effectiveness, then you're also implicitly agreeing to its lack of integrity, because it IS the one sided visual unpredictability that makes it good. So, if you want to say it has integrity, you're only option is to argue that it's not strong enough to actually camouflage the player. And so, you keep downplaying it like camo doesn't camo you, or somehow isn't effective enough to actually make you hard (or impossible) to see, but it does man! Like I said, if camo didn't work well, nobody would want it, but everyone does. The strength of the pickup is evident in how supremely important it is to good players, something even you said about it, which completely contradicts the perspective that it's not all that great. You even said you have to know when NOT to shoot a player right in front of you, which is admitting that the camo player can be completely invisible to someone right in front of you. So, it's good. It does what it says it does, it camos you, and that's why you and everyone else wants it.

I will say, Its strength by itself is not my concern. To illustrate, It would become a terrible pickup if bungie made it only last 3 seconds, but what about that one encounter that could happen in those three seconds, where I can see my opponent but he cannot see me? While the pickup is no longer incredibly important because it has been nerfed, the potential encounters within those 3 seconds could still violate predictability and therefore integrity. Overall strength within the sandbox is the least of my balancing concerns. I want it to be balanced in another sense, in the sense that everything I benefit from it is my doing, and every reason my opponent loses could've been predicted AND countered from his perspective, and camo fails that litmus test on both fronts. Like multi said, even if you can see camo guy you have no auto aim, and that's assuming you even spotted him before he domes you.

You say you agree with integrity, but you actually don't in practice, at least not in this conversation. You may like it as an idea but you aren't willing to apply it all the way in CE for whatever reason. Maybe because you just love it that much, or maybe because you actually believe that camo is perfectly predictable at all times. Either way we're not getting anywhere, because it is self evidently the element of suprise which comes from invisibility that makes it good, and it is that same one-way unpredictability that violates integrity. Of course you can predict someones movement with camo if there's a clear objective to go for and if the map design is a literal stop-sign that has been 3d scanned. And, even in that case, what if I do something unpredictable on purpose? What faculty does my opponent now have to track me? Well, we know that it's certainly not a visual faculty! What about other times? What about with teleporters (which you never explained about) And what about maps with more geometry? It's hard to track someone in Halo around a 90 degree corner even without invisibility. Are you really willing to tell me that the camo play can always be tracked on any map? Are you serious man? That's just not right, and I don't know what else to say about it. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because even the name of the pickup describes what it does, and what it does describes what it is, a one-way advantage, like that shield from infinite that can be shot through from only one side, except with visual information and not bullets.

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4 hours ago, Boyo said:

What does visor do exactly?  Outline stuff?  

Yep. It highlighted important things without intruding on the night theme too much.

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@Xandrith Could you outline for me, in bullet point form, why Camo doesn’t have integrity?  Is it as simple as I can’t see him so it’s unfair?  

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

@Xandrith Could you outline for me, in bullet point form, why Camo doesn’t have integrity?  Is it as simple as I can’t see him so it’s unfair?  

- Integrity = outcomes proportionate to intentional player input

- For Intentional player input to exist, predictability must be present at every level and at all times as a prerequisite (playing chess in the dark vs the light)

- Visual information is THE primary avenue to start predicting my opponent in Halo (not the only source, but primary)

- Camo subverts Halo's primary source of information through the removal of that information from one player, but not the other, in order to provide its advantage

- Therefore, while not always, camo often violates integrity in practice. It cloaks one half of the chess board.

 

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