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Halo Infinite Discussion

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6 minutes ago, Obnokshus said:

Very basic equipment pickups like a limited crouch slide or double jump to utilize otherwise unreachable parts of a map would have been an excellent way to create simple, readable alternative routes and strategies without throwing away map design or player efficacy

What do you think about one map having a double jump pick-up while another has a wall kick pick-up?  They serve similar purposes but their slight differences promote different playstyles (that, hopefully, their corresponding maps have been tailored to accommodate and reward).  

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17 hours ago, Jake Teh Nub said:

If you think grappling hooks suck play 007 Agent Under Fire or Mannpower mode in TF2.

Agent Under Fire is so underrated. 

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16 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

You just typed a statement that's been ringing through Halo for fifteen years.

As a kid playing Halo 2 campaign I always wanted to use the jetpack the elites had. When they finally introduced it in Halo: Reach I hated it lol.

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I used jetpack most of the time around 2010/11. I didnt start using other AAs until later. Hologram actually became one if the more fun ones to use for me.

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5 hours ago, Shekkles said:

As a kid playing Halo 2 campaign I always wanted to use the jetpack the elites had. When they finally introduces it in Halo: Reach I hated it lol.

Jet pack is only fun in pve. Jet pack in halo was extremely unbalanced. 
1. Broke map control

2. The height advantage it obviously gave, and added upon with bloom made it even more op

3. Let people get to ridiculous positions.

Grapple hook at the very least is limited use in mp so it breaking map control is ok to me since it’s like lift from h3 in that regard. 

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2 hours ago, Mr Grim said:

I used jetpack most of the time around 2010/11. I didnt start using other AAs until later. Hologram actually became one if the more fun ones to use for me.

I hated all the armour abilities. All of them. Shockingly half of them were removed from matchmaking within 3 months. 3 months! I didn't really hate anyone for using them though. Definitely a case of don't hate the player, hate the game.

And I do hate the game.

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On 3/5/2021 at 3:03 PM, Hard Way said:

Because all of the weapons that allow you to do it are ones you typically wouldn't hang on to if you had the option to swap it out. There is absolutely a choice. You have to weigh the amount of potential damage you could do with a power weapon and your remaining camo time, versus the possibility of being left without a pistol when your cloak expires (or if you get spotted). There's been loads of times where it's taken me a while to get to a power weapon after getting camo, and I have to decide if it's worth it to trade my pistol.

If you're talking about strictly Pistol/AR use, I still think it's pretty fun. It allows you to get way more mileage out of your camo. You're not just sitting behind cover after shooting, burning 3 precious seconds of cloak. You can do it manually and be on your way, at the cost of disengaging, switching weapons, and keeping a weapon you might otherwise swap.  Imagine how utterly boring it would be to have an H3 camo on Wizard.

Straight up comparison, H1 Camo vs H3 Camo, it's not even close which one is more fun to use (or play against). One of them allows you to drastically change the state of the game, and the other allows for one or two surprise strikes if you hurry your ass off, aim perfectly and choose perfectly. Camo in H3 is barely even a threat.  And please, don't start with how you're too strong with camo in H1. I've been predicted and shut down with camo by good players way too many times to think it's too much power.

To be clear, I think quick camo is cool. My question was aimed more at the incredible hype it's given, as it's literally always listed as one of CE's best attributes, which slightly confuses me because it's a relatively small thing. I appreciate your reasoning, and I can see why it's important. But, it seems to me that a better way to give a weapon a purpose is to give it inherent purpose. If I'm not ever picking up a weapon except for the utility it gives me when combined with another better pickup, then that's basically saying the gun is useless. Like I posted earlier, every gun could be designed in a way to potentially be as deep and as skillful as the pistol, while retaining all of the role/choice you have now, so there's no reason not to design weapons that way. A hidden system should not be the only reason I pick something up, so I just never saw quick camo as something super impressive/important because when you think in terms of ideals, it's just a band-aid for otherwise useless pieces of the sandbox. I think it's easy to come from the perspective of "CE is the best designed Halo" (because it totally is) and then miss out on conceptualizing how it could be made better.

Apart from that, I'm not interested in talking CE specifics by calling camo too strong or really anything like that. Even if it was, that's only one way for something to be imbalanced, and the less important way. Just like CC in wow, camo may even help the overall structure of the experience along with being relatively well placed in the wholistic form of competitive CE, but that is not the same as an argument for the fundamental design integrity of stealth (or CC) as a mechanic. I think it's objectively poor design to have one party of two in a multiplayer game literally be in another dimension. Again, not a comment on its strength, and again, not an argument against whatever potentially beneficial effect it may have on the game as a whole (for example camo giving some weapons purpose they wouldn't otherwise have via quick camo). So, talking about those aspects misses the (my) point. 

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The reason the grapple not having people shooting while using it was so disappointing to me is because that would've at least been fun. If you take the fun glasses off and just think about competitive Halo and a grappling hook for 5 seconds you know its absolutely going to be bullshit that should never have been there. Its just like jetpacks, sprint and evade. You can't put shit like that into the classic Halo formula and seriously expect it to not break map design and game flow and personally I'm pretty tired of disastrously silly attempts on that front. 

I'll still play with it and think critically whenever the opportunity comes around but I don't see one reason to expect a positive result in multiplayer. Come on "I had this guy stuck and weak but thankfully for him he had a grapple hook so he just kind of climbed the walls and escaped in a way that honestly I couldn't do anything about" does not sound like a world I want to play in not to mention what happens when a guy climbs walls with rockets or whatever and shoots down into wherever you are simply because they had the ability to go completely vertical while others cannot. I don't know how this started but literally trashing whatever map design the designer had in mind with additional abilities doesn't seem to ever work well for Halo you're just going to have a bunch of dumb grapple holes and windows sprinkled into the maps that don't make any sense with its exclusion just like newer Halo titles suffer from weirdly elongated map design that doesn't go over so well as soon as you stop sprinting and begin shooting

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26 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

I think it's fundamentally and objectively broken to have one party of two in a multiplayer game literally be in another dimension.

Camo isn’t really about being invisible.  It’s about being able to travel unmolested and attack with the element of surprise.  Besides invisibility, what other ways could these benefits be given?  

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A weapon that could fire a projectile that teleports the user to its point of impact would accomplish those goals, would it not?  

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Grapple combined with clamber is gonna make map traversal even more brainless than before. Literally just click and hold RT. Hopefully, it means that maps are a little more vertically restrictive and not Plaza reskins. 

Pickups as a whole need to be designed with an intuitive purpose, one that doesn't conflict with the design philosophy of the entire game. Movement-altering pickups are no exception. 

What does a wall-kick accomplish, and with how much relative difficulty does it accomplish this? Is "this" something that you even want to allow a player with wall-kick to do, or is it too powerful? How does this affect map flow and player strategy? How does the mechanic displace or interact with the rest of the game? 

Unrelated: "Halo needs to innovate and not chase trends" is probably the single most idiotic and harmful platitude in the playerbase. 

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Unless they really surprise me the best case scenario is that the grapple hook is about as relevant as the pick up grav lift from H3 is but unless the cooldown is just unreasonably long to where they're trying to make sure this happens I can't see it not having a larger impact

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1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

Unless they really surprise me the best case scenario is that the grapple hook is about as relevant as the pick up grav lift from H3 is but unless the cooldown is just unreasonably long to where they're trying to make sure this happens I can't see it not having a larger impact

Regarding multiplayer map design. Imagine we will have maps similar to h5 that are force clamber, but smaller than h5s because of the reduced sprint speed but with the amount of attention they’re giving the hook probably a lot of verticality to make it feel useful. Based on that first image it looked like a map with 2 or 3 levels. 

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Lunge-clamber activated by the jump button while airborne is superior to the Grappleshot.  
 

The Grappleshot suffers from the same detriment as sprint, its range is too damn long and its speed is too damn slow.  Shorter, faster movement enhancers are where it’s at.  
 

Airborne lunge-clamber keeps the potential sphere of movement small, so maps can stay tight, while still providing the player with useful freedom beyond his base abilities.  

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4 hours ago, _Synapse said:

"Halo needs to innovate and not chase trends" is probably the single most idiotic and harmful platitude in the playerbase. 

Halo needs to innovate in a modular fashion, that allows tight arena gameplay to exist alongside gametypes with additional weapons, vehicles, and abilities.  

Halo needs to innovate in ways that reinforce its core tenets, promoting aggression, promoting movement, encouraging synergistic use of sandbox items, rewarding skillful behavior, et c.  

Halo needs to innovate in how its core systems are implemented.  It needs to increase the effectiveness of player input at the controller level.  

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1 minute ago, Basu said:

The last thing I want is some rehash of Halo 3 with the "least offensive" modern Halo elements sprinkled in. Sadly it seems that's exactly what they're going for with Infinite. 

I agree but what you guys have to understand is that you want to play HORSE and in order to attract new people into playing HORSE, you have to have a basketball league to draw players in from, into your even more niche league.  That basketball league is the more social, higher player count, more vehicles, more abilities gametypes.  Embrace them.  They are your recruiting tools.  Draw people in with the shiny, then show them the deeper, more fulfilling, skillful experience once they’re in the door.  Because currently, we are just crazy people on the side of the highway screaming at the cars going past.  

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I think the most simple thing about Halo isn't that it needs to innovate or chase a trend but rather than Halo needs to just be itself. Innovation should come in the form of this obviously better and amazing idea that someone has spontaneously and not in the form of random or even "expected" change just so that you can say you were trying to innovate. Just because the industry leans one way does not mean that a super popular and successful franchise should lean with it on the GAMEPLAY front. Social tools and the like are another story and should be constantly moving forward. The underlying technology is another thing that should be under constant improvement. Gameplay however is something that just needs to be fun and well crafted. It doesn't necessarily need to be new or different. There is always a market for enjoyment and so knowing that altering your already successful model should be one of the most thought out and frankly terrifying things anyone does in the studio and isn't something to be undertaken lightly or to be considered a given. Nearly all groups of people involved in the creation of entertainment sequels fail to respect the sentiment in that last sentence and blow it

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35 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

Nearly all groups of people involved in the creation of entertainment sequels fail to respect the sentiment in that last sentence and blow it

Terminator 2 is the greatest sequel of all time specifically because it innovated on the original formula.  It changed the right things.  

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

I wouldn't call it innovation, Halo just needs to go back to what worked and then go from there. And by back I mean take CE and really only add stuff that is an objective improvement, like the spawn system (outside 2s), H2s movement, forge etc. 

What you would end up with is a game that plays like nothing out there. The last thing I want is some rehash of Halo 3 with the "least offensive" modern Halo elements sprinkled in. Sadly it seems that's exactly what they're going for with Infinite. 

If its more like H3 and less like Halo 5, then that is still a step in the right direction.  Although, I do agree equipment pickups will be annoying AF in multiplayer.  But I hope they are not as bad as Spartan Abilities.   

 

I really do have hope that the game launches with some sort of Custom Games browser and that is it easy to make custom game types that don't have equipment pickups with Sprint turned off.  Let's just hope the maps aren't completely wack due to the game desgin as 343 intended. Like if they are designing all the maps around Sprint and equipment pickups, that might kinda suck for classic based custom games. 

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11 hours ago, Xandrith said:

To be clear, I think quick camo is cool. My question was aimed more at the incredible hype it's given, as it's literally always listed as one of CE's best attributes, which slightly confuses me because it's a relatively small thing. I appreciate your reasoning, and I can see why it's important. But, it seems to me that a better way to give a weapon a purpose is to give it inherent purpose. If I'm not ever picking up a weapon except for the utility it gives me when combined with another better pickup, then that's basically saying the gun is useless. Like I posted earlier, every gun could be designed in a way to potentially be as deep and as skillful as the pistol, while retaining all of the role/choice you have now, so there's no reason not to design weapons that way. A hidden system should not be the only reason I pick something up, so I just never saw quick camo as something super impressive/important because when you think in terms of ideals, it's just a band-aid for otherwise useless pieces of the sandbox. I think it's easy to come from the perspective of "CE is the best designed Halo" (because it totally is) and then miss out on conceptualizing how it could be made better.

Apart from that, I'm not interested in talking CE specifics by calling camo too strong or really anything like that. Even if it was, that's only one way for something to be imbalanced, and the less important way. Just like CC in wow, camo may even help the overall structure of the experience along with being relatively well placed in the wholistic form of competitive CE, but that is not the same as an argument for the fundamental design integrity of stealth (or CC) as a mechanic. I think it's objectively poor design to have one party of two in a multiplayer game literally be in another dimension. Again, not a comment on its strength, and again, not an argument against whatever potentially beneficial effect it may have on the game as a whole (for example camo giving some weapons purpose they wouldn't otherwise have via quick camo). So, talking about those aspects misses the (my) point. 

I wouldn't call the PR, Shotgun, or the AR useless outside of quick camo. I think all of those weapons are good enough to stand on their own. The PP needs stronger tracking, or a complete redesign to be legitimately viable. The needler sadly never even had quick camo, and needs a massive buff.  When I said that you would normally trade one of these quick camo weapons for rockets or sniper, that wasn't meant to say that these weapons are useless. In fact, often on Chill Out, I'd much rather have a PR than a sniper. Sometimes I'll actually run both. But I do agree that every weapon in the sandbox should be able to stand on its own, even without quick camo. 

I also think the game needs to explain quick camo. It shouldn't be a hidden effect. Lastly, I love the concept of quick camo. I love the feeling of "driving my camo with manual transmission" and getting that extra umph from it. I love the sacrifice you need to make if you want to use a power weapon with that same effect. I love how, if you choose to keep your pistol and play around your slow-cloak, how carefully you need to choose your first shot. I just think it's an outstanding mechanic on its own.

"I think it's objectively poor design to have one party of two in a multiplayer game literally be in another dimension."

I couldn't disagree with this assessment more. First reason: Having camo against a good team is an enormous responsibility to get something out of it. There is a certain level of stress that accompanies your potential power. I think this added weight on your decision making, this extra spotlight on this moment of the game, adds a lot of value. Being in stealth is fun, not just for the extra power, but also for the extra responsibility.  Second reason: "Literally in another dimension" is such a wild exaggeration, and one that I REALLY don't think you would make if you played CE with some very good players. What feels like Titanfall phase-walking when you're playing random kids in social, feels like walking a tightrope against a vigilant team that's actively trying to predict you. One misstep and they see you. Too predictable and you walk over a nade. Take a poor first shot and you blow it. And against a good team, you need that camo to control the game. That death matters, a lot.

I think that statement reveals a lot about the caliber of opponents your basing your judgements on. Yeah, against shitty kids it does feel like you're in another dimension. But in a real game, it feels like every choice you make is under a microscope and amplified by 100x. It feels like playing spy against a good merc in Chaos Theory. I think that's where and why our opinions part ways on the matter.

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3 hours ago, Boyo said:

show them the deeper, more fulfilling, skillful experience once they’re in the door.

My concern is that an experience like this will not exist in Halo Infinite outside of custom games with user-created maps. 

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3 hours ago, Basu said:

I wouldn't call it innovation, Halo just needs to go back to what worked and then go from there. And by back I mean take CE and really only add stuff that is an objective improvement, like the spawn system (outside 2s), H2s movement, forge etc. 

That's fine; what I meant was that Halo doesn't and never really "innovated" with it's gameplay, even during it's peak. 

"Halo needs to innovate" is just another brainless slogan from the overflowing, bottomless pit of shit takes courtesy of Reach/3/343 Halo kids. It's such a vacuous, hollow phrase that you can twist it to mean literally anything you want. 

I've never once seen it used to defend something positive about Halo. It's always in the context of "Halo doesn't need to chase the Esports F2P trend it needs to innovate by adding 1937 more armors for me to cosplay as".

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2 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I wouldn't call the PR, Shotgun, or the AR useless outside of quick camo. I think all of those weapons are good enough to stand on their own. The PP needs stronger tracking, or a complete redesign to be legitimately viable. The needler sadly never even had quick camo, and needs a massive buff.  When I said that you would normally trade one of these quick camo weapons for rockets or sniper, that wasn't meant to say that these weapons are useless. In fact, often on Chill Out, I'd much rather have a PR than a sniper. Sometimes I'll actually run both. But I do agree that every weapon in the sandbox should be able to stand on its own, even without quick camo. 

I also think the game needs to explain quick camo. It shouldn't be a hidden effect. Lastly, I love the concept of quick camo. I love the feeling of "driving my camo with manual transmission" and getting that extra umph from it. I love the sacrifice you need to make if you want to use a power weapon with that same effect. I love how, if you choose to keep your pistol and play around your slow-cloak, how carefully you need to choose your first shot. I just think it's an outstanding mechanic on its own.

"I think it's objectively poor design to have one party of two in a multiplayer game literally be in another dimension."

I couldn't disagree with this assessment more. First reason: Having camo against a good team is an enormous responsibility to get something out of it. There is a certain level of stress that accompanies your potential power. I think this added weight on your decision making, this extra spotlight on this moment of the game, adds a lot of value. Being in stealth is fun, not just for the extra power, but also for the extra responsibility.  Second reason: "Literally in another dimension" is such a wild exaggeration, and one that I REALLY don't think you would make if you played CE with some very good players. What feels like Titanfall phase-walking when you're playing random kids in social, feels like walking a tightrope against a vigilant team that's actively trying to predict you. One misstep and they see you. Too predictable and you walk over a nade. Take a poor first shot and you blow it. And against a good team, you need that camo to control the game. That death matters, a lot.

I think that statement reveals a lot about the caliber of opponents your basing your judgements on. Yeah, against shitty kids it does feel like you're in another dimension. But in a real game, it feels like every choice you make is under a microscope and amplified by 100x. It feels like playing spy against a good merc in Chaos Theory. I think that's where and why our opinions part ways on the matter.

Seems like we're once again falling back into CE specifics when my argument is philosophical. I'm not basing my perspective on any specific experience I've had in the game apart from the obvious, and to argue on the basis of the "caliber of players" I've played against is to completely shift the focus of what I'm trying to say off of design, and onto my own subjective experiences, which 1; You don't even know about in the first place, and 2; shouldn't matter when discussing objective design theory. I've been good at games my whole life and all I do is think about them, but that matters not. I will talk about some of my experiences in a sec, but the important thing about them is that they are the experiences of everyone.

Before that, once again I'll say what I said in my video. The indroduction of any mechanic creates all sorts of benefits and negatives. Nobody would argue that Camo, or anything, doesn't introduce different and new skills into the game. But, again, that is not at all a justification for a mechanic. I can outplay people with the radar in Halo, but its other effects are undesirable and objectively terrible for a pvp experience, which we probably agree on. You cannot list off the benefits of something and use that as an argument because that's ignoring the other side of the coin, and when that other half is taken into consideration, a mechanic often reveals itself as a detriment to the game. I believe the same to be true about camo based on what the pickup is designed to do, regardless of whatever skills it introduces or however influential it may end up being at the highest level. What is most important is Integrity, that in every moment and at all times the better player wins, which requires predictability and counterplay to also be available at all times as a prerequisite. These are the tools necessary for integrity to exist in a game, a map, an encounter, anything. So, when someone is literally invisible, when I can't see you and you can see me, what are my options? Before you start talking about all the nuances of camo at a high level, before you list off its benefits, think with me, is there integrity in one person just not being there?

And if we then say that this is all an extreme exaggeration, and that you can always see camo or counter it... just... no. Camo(n) man! You know it, I know it, sometimes you just straight up die because someone is right next to you and you literally cannot see them. Without even mentioning a single other aspect of CE, cross map teleporters by themselves are enough to do away with the predictability you would need to always avoid getting backsmacked by someone with camo in CE. Nobody needs to play at a LAN against the ogre twins to recognize that someone was not on their screen when they got sniped, and this is that universal experience I was hinting at. Camo is designed to... camo you! To disappear from vision, and even if not completely, enough that getting sniped by a 1 pixel lense flair from across the map is not something I can control. Again, If camo didn't camo you, it wouldn't be called camo, and nobody would want it. So it does make you invisible, and while yes I agree that calling it another dimension is an exaggeration, it's still super good. You are effectively invisible. If you weren't, it wouldn't be called a crucial pickup to control. And so, my argument against it stands.

Of course, you can disagree with my idea of integrity and that's fine, but delving deeper into individual scenarios within CE does not change the fact that Camo introduces an extreme level of unpredictability that I fundamentally disagree with as a designer. So, argue with that all you like. Also, bringing up my personal experiences as if that could validate or invalidate my argument is a lost cause because the function of camo is self evident, even in just the name of the pickup.

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