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Halo Infinite Discussion

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On 2/26/2021 at 9:42 AM, Boyo said:

Halo’s inefficient control scheme is withholding potential moves from the player.  
 

BECAUSE WEAPONS DON'T NEED 1889903 FIRING MODES, THAT'S JUST ADDING COMPLEXITY AND REMOVING DEPTH AS I STATED IN THE LAST 100 PAGES!

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I am fine with crowd control as long as it has proper counters. In the halo 1 PR's case, the counter is awareness. 

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15 hours ago, RatherSilentMr said:

Was looking at some of the photos up close. Some things I missed the first time. 

yQj8gYn.jpg

1AendT0.jpg

qPRjVph.jpg

 

 

It's baffling to see 343 keep the hexagonal pillars. Infinite is going to be an eyesore, and I don't like it.

Here's an idea for 343- Replace the pillars with the glowie walls on isolation.

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13 hours ago, darkstar said:

I do believe ranked deserves a six-player Lone Wolves.

I can't respect free-for-all enough for it to be ranked.

When placed in that situation, it is true that your skill of self-preservation and planning are put to the test. However, the way players win is to utilize moments where opponents are weak or alone to finish them off at a distance, hold a piece of the map to keep opponents from spawning nearby, and repeat. A single weapon or power-up in the middle is a poor attempt at giving players a chance to fight back and start a roll of kills, as its actual use is more of a bait for weaker players to be shot down by stronger ones. The previous method of keeping weapons on the map doesn't help this problem either; rather, it makes the previously mentioned negatives more inclined to stronger players, as they need only to grab a power weapon, and effectively camp until they need to get ammo.

You can make the argument that the value of keeping yourself alive and strengthening your mental capacity outweigh my reasoning. But, I would state that team oriented gamemodes help not only those values, but all of the values necessary for good teamwork and communication. Free-for-all doesn't give you any of that, and, more often that not, players that try to go into teams because of their slaying potential from strictly FFA tend to have weaker communication and teamwork oriented skills. They can drop bodies, but can't walk & talk. Exceptions to this thinking aren't a strong argument, as said exceptions are the minority.

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3 hours ago, hvs500 said:

BECAUSE WEAPONS DON'T NEED 1889903 FIRING MODES, THAT'S JUST ADDING COMPLEXITY AND REMOVING DEPTH AS I STATED IN THE LAST 100 PAGES!

You’re right.  Rather than use the available buttons efficiently, we should force players to use paddle controllers because we keep adding features without tidying up existing ones.  

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2 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

I can't respect free-for-all enough for it to be ranked.

When placed in that situation, it is true that your skill of self-preservation and planning are put to the test. However, the way players win is to utilize moments where opponents are weak or alone to finish them off at a distance, hold a piece of the map to keep opponents from spawning nearby, and repeat. A single weapon or power-up in the middle is a poor attempt at giving players a chance to fight back and start a roll of kills, as its actual use is more of a bait for weaker players to be shot down by stronger ones. The previous method of keeping weapons on the map doesn't help this problem either; rather, it makes the previously mentioned negatives more inclined to stronger players, as they need only to grab a power weapon, and effectively camp until they need to get ammo.

You can make the argument that the value of keeping yourself alive and strengthening your mental capacity outweigh my reasoning. But, I would state that team oriented gamemodes help not only those values, but all of the values necessary for good teamwork and communication. Free-for-all doesn't give you any of that, and, more often that not, players that try to go into teams because of their slaying potential from strictly FFA tend to have weaker communication and teamwork oriented skills. They can drop bodies, but can't walk & talk. Exceptions to this thinking aren't a strong argument, as said exceptions are the minority.

I respect the argument put forth. Based on your parameters for what should qualify as a ranked playlist, I don’t have much of a counter argument. Lone Wolves is more of a preference for me personally, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world if FFA was limited to a social Rumble Pit setting.  

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4 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I mean Halo isn't really focused on ranked gameplay. I think a lot of the fun of Halo really came from campaign and fun/social modes. Zombies, tower of power, swat etc in H2 onto fat kid and the like in H3. I think providing tools to the community to be creative as much as possible is a really important thing 343 could be doing for the community. I think some mechanics could be really fun in a solo or co-op campaign experience and really fucking bad in a ranked multiplayer game. It would be so much easier to provide new, cool and fun things if they weren't so dead set on balancing and shoehorning everything into matchmaking and then ranked matchmaking beyond that. We would probably all be better off if they stuck to what works when it comes to curating a competitive experience and didn't let that stop them from being creative and providing tools for things outside of that. Given appropriate tools eventually something would come out of the community that would be acceptable to offer in social matchmade games or even ranked gameplay but they try and figure it all out on their own before the game is released and we're all worse off because of it

I think holding up the ranked playlist as the definitive way of playing Halo has never really worked and never will with how diverse and fractured the community really is. Bungie was really good at leaning into that fact and while some other popular games might make people think that isn't the right way of doing things I actually think the reality of the Halo community won't allow a successful attempt at anything else. If they picked the competitive gameplay that I prefer surely I would be happy as would the community that I play within but all of the swat, btb, campaign, zombie, slayer, whatever kids would likely not be interested and just quit playing more often than they would transition into the new way to play.

343 would do a lot better if they just empowered the various communities to create whatever game is right for them on the canvas that they provided and monitored and supported that when appropriate. They shouldn't be the guys setting up our tournament settings or showing everyone how zombies should work. They should be supporting the players who participate in those things and providing the platform for them to play on. If you check out what bungie did most of the time they pretty much had their default playlists because the game has to release with something up and then went around riding the wave of whatever the community was enjoying post H2 release. They could play that role better than bungie ever did if they just embraced doing so

You know all in all this is why I hope infinite feels simple. Sprint slide and clamber are pretty basic traits for games where it shouldn’t feel sweaty like h5 was, and an aiming system where you struggle because it’s broken AF.  Cod is a good example of a game that’s extremely simple like halo even with its movement but can become competitive AF. 

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3 hours ago, hvs500 said:

I am fine with crowd control as long as it has proper counters. In the halo 1 PR's case, the counter is awareness. 

If that's the standard, then every kind of cc ever implemented has a counter. That's too broad a definition.

You get shot at in Halo, almost all of the time. That's the game! To then have one of those guns stun you isn't casually solved by just "being aware". It's easy to say that, really it's incredibly easy to say that, and you could technically make that argument for any mechanic ever made, no matter how obnoxious. You always have the ability to be aware and somewhat dampen the effectiveness of whatever mechanic is in play... but that's not a justification, nor is it at all the same as saying plasma stun has a counter. It doesn't, not a real counter anyways. Sure, again, you can be the better player and maybe not get caught by it as much over the course of the entire match, but practically, once I get hit I'm done for. When the stun snowball starts and I might as well put down my controller.

If my only recourse against a gun is to hope it literally never hits me, then practically speaking, it has no counter.

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6 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

If that's the standard, then every kind of cc ever implemented has a counter. That's too broad a definition.

You get shot at in Halo, almost all of the time. That's the game! To then have one of those guns stun you isn't casually solved by just "being aware". It's easy to say that, really it's incredibly easy to say that, and you could technically make that argument for any mechanic ever made, no matter how obnoxious. You always have the ability to be aware and somewhat dampen the effectiveness of whatever mechanic is in play... but that's not a justification, nor is it at all the same as saying plasma stun has a counter. It doesn't, not a real counter anyways. Sure, again, you can be the better player and maybe not get caught by it as much over the course of the entire match, but practically, once I get hit I'm done for. When the stun snowball starts and I might as well put down my controller.

If my only recourse against a gun is to hope it literally never hits me, then practically speaking, it has no counter.

Some guns shouldn’t have a counter. Crowd control mechanics like stuns are only meant to be fun to the player or at least I’m convinced they are. To cod stuns in warzone gulag or just in general, to stuns in pubg. Stuns just aren’t fun when used against you. However it’s fair to note it’s a way to add a niche to a gun like you guy’s always bring up. You want to get rid of clone guns, where the only difference between a carbine and a DMR is rate of fire or range, you don’t want a AR and storm rifle since they do the same thing, are they automatic weapons and ones human and ones covenant. Looking at the h5 scatter shot I’d say it’s pretty different than the normal shot gun since you can shoot the ground and have the bullets hit your opponent but if that’s not enough of a niche I don’t know what is 

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I think a lot of those problems with FFA can be mitigated by item placement and spawn cadence.

I think most FFA maps should be very lean on items in general. 1 powerup. If it’s an OS, spawn in the middle. If it’s anything else, spawn it to the side. Nothing should spawn until 30sec into the game.

If it’s a map that uses power weapons (which should be the exception), never spawn two weapons at once. Stagger each spawn so that something different spawns every minute. Use like a 1 powerup, 2 weapon system for these types of maps. Ammo should be pretty limited, especially on short range weapons. Don’t put short range weapons on maps like Cold Storage or Tyrant ffs.

Keep the 8sec respawn, for FFA only. It’s the only game mode it’s actually good for. Deaths are punished more, and you’re less likely to clean up your own kill. And people that slay before going for items actually have time to get away with it.

I have a great deal of respect for ranked FFA, but a lot of effort needs to go into removing cheese from the game.

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17 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

You want to get rid of clone guns, where the only difference between a carbine and a DMR is rate of fire or range, you don’t want a AR and storm rifle since they do the same thing, are they automatic weapons and ones human and ones covenant.

If only there was some way of making weapons with similar primary fires unique!  

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7 minutes ago, Boyo said:

If only there was some way of making weapons with similar primary fires unique!  

Well many here have basically told you to fuck off for suggesting alt fires. But I’m for one someone who actually agrees. This be the best way to separate weapons that are just basic clones. I’ve always wondered should alt fire be like how it is in other games where you press b(keyboard) or dpad(controller) and switched or how in h5 like with the LR it’s 3 shot kill slower ROF while scoped? I’d be interested in trying both methods. But creating alt fires for say a dmr and BR is a bit difficult on paper at least. Like the niche differences between the two is ones a burst weapon and other is a single shot and ones mid range the others long. This niche difference does help in situations. 

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10 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

Well many here have basically told you to fuck off for suggesting alt fires. But I’m for one someone who actually agrees. This be the best way to separate weapons that are just basic clones. I’ve always wondered should alt fire be like how it is in other games where you press b(keyboard) or dpad(controller) and switched or how in h5 like with the LR it’s 3 shot kill slower ROF while scoped? I’d be interested in trying both methods. But creating alt fires for say a dmr and BR is a bit difficult on paper at least. Like the niche differences between the two is ones a burst weapon and other is a single shot and ones mid range the others long. This niche difference does help in situations. 

Scopeless weapons use the Scope button to Alt-Fire instead.  This type of attack is instantly available, just like primary fire.  
 

Battery-operated weapons use the Reload button to Toggle Firemodes instead.  This type of attack requires the user toggle the weapon into a secondary firemode before use.  

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7 hours ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

Why have any of that if you take it out for ranked?

Why have any of what? Advanced movement? I would be thrilled if 'all that' wasnt in matchmaking, let alone in the game at all. 

 

 

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Core Player Functions 

 

Run 

Jump 

Crouch 

Aim 

Fire 

Throw grenade 

Melee 

Scope 

Reload 

Switch weapons 

Cycle grenade types 

 

Once these core functions have been mapped to the controller, there is 1 Face Button and 4 Directionals on the D Pad left unassigned.  If “Cycle grenade types” is moved to the Up directional then there are 2 face buttons and 3 directionals for the developer to work with.  What functions should be mapped to these available buttons?  

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On 2/26/2021 at 3:10 PM, Boyo said:

Would 4v4 comp and 4v4 social share the same maps?  

Probably not considering social gametypes are primarily determined by the company since its the whole gamut of maps while competitive is almost entirely determined by the players

HCS being run by the devs means this is different but even so pro feedback did matter to change h5's maps....you weren't seeing overgrowth in competitive, and pistol only starts + removing charge and pound happened

It only took them a few years but I guess thats something

It's also why as I play more Halo I become less and less convinced universal settings would ever work, or if they are even a good thing

Radar dubs TS in halo 3 is a completely different meta than MLG and while I prefer MLG since radar is just too obtrusive for me to enjoy, they literally have their own sub community with good ass players who could just as easily go to MLG and destroy people

Let people play the gametypes they want and don't force gamemodes to be the same when Halo is about variety, Infinite having its new features being sandbox additions rather than abilities is a welcome change of pace and one that I think will benefit the game in the long run

Sprint and radar needs to fucking go in competitive though

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If 4v4 comp is going to have different settings and different maps than 4v4 social, why not increase the player count of social and make it its own unique full fledged experience since there is nothing tying it to the 4v4 player count anymore?  @Killmachine

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51 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Core Player Functions 

 

Run 

Jump 

Crouch 

Aim 

Fire 

Throw grenade 

Melee 

Scope 

Reload 

Switch weapons 

Cycle grenade types 

 

Once these core functions have been mapped to the controller, there is 1 Face Button and 4 Directionals on the D Pad left unassigned.  If “Cycle grenade types” is moved to the Up directional then there are 2 face buttons and 3 directionals for the developer to work with.  What functions should be mapped to these available buttons?  

Control Scheme Synergy 

 

With two face buttons and three directionals available, we can create two two-button systems:  face button and directional, face button and directional.  

 

Much like how the Grenade System is controlled by two buttons, one for throwing grenades and one for cycling through the available grenade types, both of these systems would use the face button for deploying/activating something and the directional for cycling through the available items in that class.  

 

Equipment are deployables that enhance combat.  

 

Armor Abilities are abilities that enhance movement.  

 

A face button deploys the selected piece of equipment and a directional cycles through the player’s available equipment.  

 

A face button activates the selected armor ability and a directional cycles through the player’s available armor abilities.*

 

Since we began with two face buttons and three directionals, we still have one directional left unassigned.  This lonely directional is paired with the Switch Weapons button that has no function mapped to button-hold.  

 

Holding Y equips the selected sidearm.  The Y button’s corresponding directional cycles through the player’s available sidearms.  Sidearms are a sub-class of four weapons that the player cannot drop, only holster.  By making the Magnum a sidearm, arena players can carry two weapon pick-ups without losing permanent access to their utility weapon.  

 

*Similar to how Y had a function mapped to it but hold-Y didn’t, Jump has a button dedicated to it but this button becomes useless once the player is airborne.  

 

Aerial Abilities are a class of items activated by “jump while airborne”.  Each aerial ability is married to a corresponding armor ability, piggybacking on its inventory directional, causing that directional to cycle through married sets of abilities, one armor and one aerial.  

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49 minutes ago, Boyo said:

What functions should be mapped to these available buttons?  

Two face buttons should be Drop Weapon, and Grenade Switch. Directional buttons should be part of a ping system; Up pings yourself, Left Pings what your reticle aims at, Right Pings objectives (in Slayer, Power Weapons light up), and Down pings "I need a Weapon."

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33 minutes ago, Boyo said:

If 4v4 comp is going to have different settings and different maps than 4v4 social, why not increase the player count of social and make it its own unique full fledged experience since there is nothing tying it to the 4v4 player count anymore?  @Killmachine

Thats literally what social slayer in h3 was (5v5 with casual maps and equipment), I am not opposed and would not care

Just make it good and do right by the community

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On 2/27/2021 at 4:59 AM, Boyo said:

If you want to fuck around, play customs.  If you want to try, play matchmaking.  Do I really have to defend not giving you a playlist to just fuck around in?  @JordanB

This guy doesn't action sack

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I always thought there was a clear distinction between tiers on the sweat spectrum. Going from Ranked > Social > Action Sack/Customs.

Social is where people generally try to win, but aren't calling out and timing. Sometimes people are fucking with their teammates or running dual maulers just because they can, but you're not intentionally trolling and throwing entire games. In Action Sack people are legit just fucking around and you have to assume people are probably high when playing.

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15 minutes ago, Basu said:

I always thought there was a clear distinction between tiers on the sweat spectrum. Going from Ranked > Social > Action Sack/Customs.

With a novel voting system, I think Action Sack could be done away with as a dedicated playlist.  The first option is a traditional map/gametype.  The second is another traditional option, acting as a veto for the first option.  The third option is an action sack map/gametype.  

The lobby can dynamically shift between trying and fucking around depending on the mood of the moment and players in the lobby.  

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8 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I think a lot of those problems with FFA can be mitigated by item placement and spawn cadence.

I think most FFA maps should be very lean on items in general. 1 powerup. If it’s an OS, spawn in the middle. If it’s anything else, spawn it to the side. Nothing should spawn until 30sec into the game.

If it’s a map that uses power weapons (which should be the exception), never spawn two weapons at once. Stagger each spawn so that something different spawns every minute. Use like a 1 powerup, 2 weapon system for these types of maps. Ammo should be pretty limited, especially on short range weapons. Don’t put short range weapons on maps like Cold Storage or Tyrant ffs.

Keep the 8sec respawn, for FFA only. It’s the only game mode it’s actually good for. Deaths are punished more, and you’re less likely to clean up your own kill. And people that slay before going for items actually have time to get away with it.

I have a great deal of respect for ranked FFA, but a lot of effort needs to go into removing cheese from the game.

Speaking as an FFA kid who's played an unreasonable amount of it on social settings:

Power weapons have been a bigger issue than powerups, mostly because the power weapon spawns are copypasted from social slayer settings, into a mode with completely different spawns. Additionally, some of them (rockets, shotgun, sword) have extreme control over positions on the map and can essentially be used to farm spawners and completely stop any movement through a portion of the map. Non-snipe power weapons should be restricted to a single clip of ammo, and not more than 1 per map. Preferably placed in a very risky spot. 

Powerups are much more flexible and preferable because they encourage the players who pick them up to actively cycle around the map and look for kills without the artery-clogging obnoxiousness of power weapons, and also because they can have their durations/decay tweaked till ideal.  

Spawns are a much bigger issue in 8 player lobbies though, and an 8 second respawn time would be solid.

Lowering the time for shields to recharge would be great for FFA, since the mode's purpose is to reward mechanical skill and efficient map traversal. 

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13 hours ago, hvs500 said:

It's baffling to see 343 keep the hexagonal pillars. Infinite is going to be an eyesore, and I don't like it.

They are already fully committed. Feels like a classic case of something that they latched onto early on as an Idea and now they can't let it go. 

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