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Sorry but MW2019 is way overkill with that. Not every kill needs some epic boom sound to be rewarding.

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Just now, Basu said:

Sorry but MW2019 is way overkill with that. Not every kill needs some epic boom sound to be rewarding.

Agreed, not saying Halo needs to go that far

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As far as audiovisual feedback goes:

- Punchy firing sound.

- Bright shield flare (that's clearly distinct for each shot taken).

- Stronger physics impulses on bullets.

- Ragdoll body physics. 

 

All you really need. This is why using the H2BR and H3BR is so satisfying, even if they aren't good utility weapons. 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

I am actually very much on the opposite side of the aisle as most of you here I think.  I can't stand the amount of free information given by most of these systems, the teammate outline through walls for example - if I see my teammate's outline shooting facing a certain direction, the game has just told me exactly where the enemy is because of where my teammate is looking.  That was not communicated, and it probably would never have been communicated as clearly as literally seeing things happening through geometry.  I actually don't even think you should be able to see your teammates position on the map through walls, I'm of the mindset that should be communicated as well. Not a fan of the killfeed showcasing who has what weapons, arrows over teammates heads, automated player chatter calling things out that the player themselves might not have even seen (MW anyone? Your character will shout MOVEMENT if someone's toe pops up on the other side of the map).  GIve me none of that honestly. I'd get rid of the kill feed too if it wasn't completely necessary to know the score of the match.

That's fair, it's certainly a matter of opinion and there is a wide spectrum how a game can be designed. I see things like item timers and teammate outlines as a crutch for lower level play or pubs, but it doesn't negatively impact high-level play to a meaningful degree. It's basically bringing the coaches and ASTRO LISTEN INS to the average player as a game mechanic, whether that's a good thing or not is highly subjective.

Also FYI I wouldn't want the the spartans to call out enemies, that is going way too far. I think it BO1 the soldiers could also be heard by enemies as well which is comically stupid. I'd keep it to picking up power items and maybe things like "grenade" and "reloading".

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1 hour ago, Reamis25 said:

No matter what games add pinging, voice call outs from your character etc, so far it still doesn’t top human call outs.

Yeah, cause it has to be one or the other.

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21 minutes ago, potetr said:

Halo shouldn't refrain from dishing out free dopamine just because it isn't strictly necessary. Especially when the competition is so good at it players don't even realize the game they play isn't fun.

I believe you previously made the point that when there is less of something, that thing can be more impactful in the fewer instances it is used in.  That’s how Halo should issue dopamine hits, less often than CoD but more meaningful.  Halo should be training players by rewarding displays of skill, multi kills, headshots, objective captures, not kill 10,000 with the AR.  

Halo can’t possibly compete with the reward system of a game with multiple customizable loadouts, redundant weapons, and weapon attachments.  Halo can’t beat CoD in the quantity (frequency) of its rewards so it has to beat them in quality (that is to say, a higher magnitude dopamine hit).  

The one real piece of leverage Halo can have over games like CoD is the integrity of its sandbox.  It can’t be sacrificed.  

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

I am actually very much on the opposite side of the aisle as most of you here I think.  I can't stand the amount of free information given by most of these systems, the teammate outline through walls for example - if I see my teammate's outline shooting facing a certain direction, the game has just told me exactly where the enemy is because of where my teammate is looking.  That was not communicated, and it probably would never have been communicated as clearly as literally seeing things happening through geometry.  I actually don't even think you should be able to see your teammates position on the map through walls, I'm of the mindset that should be communicated as well. Not a fan of the killfeed showcasing who has what weapons, arrows over teammates heads, automated player chatter calling things out that the player themselves might not have even seen (MW anyone? Your character will shout MOVEMENT if someone's toe pops up on the other side of the map).  GIve me none of that honestly. I'd get rid of the kill feed too if it wasn't completely necessary to know the score of the match.

This is an interesting topic because what information is available is really up to the designer. 

For example, are 3rd person tracers free information? You can deduce where someone is without seeing them or someone telling you by them firing past you. Even score. Your teammates can tell you every time you get a kill and every time they die, so you can keep track of the score. But that'd be horrible of course.

I think games should be designed to be meaningfully playable alone. They always get better with teamwork anyways.

That is, they should provide enough info so the player can make informed decisions. Make the intended experience work for solo players. That doesn't ruin things at a high level. Meanwhile, designing around pro communication plunges most of the playerbase into chaos. Most people playing games, even those talking, are just chilling out. Stripping away info will just turn them away. 

 

 

@Boyo

Absolutely, I hate skinner boxes disguised as games. Was more about highlighting the psychology of hit feedback.

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In certain parts of campaign, Chief gets assisted by a mysterious, black and yellow Spartan with unique weapons and abilities.  Seeing this sidekick operate in campaign shows the player what s/he is capable of.  In multiplayer, a Bumblebee power up transforms the player into this hero, in both looks and abilities.  

It’s not speedboost and it’s not damage boost but it does increase your mobility and it does increase your attack capabilities while giving off a unique visual tell.  While a custom set of weapons and abilities may seem daunting to roll into a single pick-up, the creation and presence of a real campaign character lends weight and legitimacy to this hero power-up in multiplayer.  

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2 hours ago, potetr said:

This is an interesting topic because what information is available is really up to the designer. 

For example, are 3rd person tracers free information? You can deduce where someone is without seeing them or someone telling you by them firing past you. Even score. Your teammates can tell you every time you get a kill and every time they die, so you can keep track of the score. But that'd be horrible of course.

I think games should be designed to be meaningfully playable alone. They always get better with teamwork anyways.

That is, they should provide enough info so the player can make informed decisions. Make the intended experience work for solo players. That doesn't ruin things at a high level. Meanwhile, designing around pro communication plunges most of the playerbase into chaos. Most people playing games, even those talking, are just chilling out. Stripping away info will just turn them away. 

 

 

@Boyo

Absolutely, I hate skinner boxes disguised as games. Was more about highlighting the psychology of hit feedback.

3rd person tracers aren't free information because they're actual real things in the game world that it makes sense you could discern information from, it also is a choice to fire your gun.

 

A radar pinging your location through walls is free information.  [Properly] tuned footsteps sounds accomplish the same thing while being earnable.

 

I don't think someone seeing their teammate's outline through a wall shoot me deserves to discern my exact location because of that. No different than being called out by a dead player swiveling their camera around.

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3 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

I am actually very much on the opposite side of the aisle as most of you here I think.  I can't stand the amount of free information given by most of these systems, the teammate outline through walls for example - if I see my teammate's outline shooting facing a certain direction, the game has just told me exactly where the enemy is because of where my teammate is looking.  That was not communicated, and it probably would never have been communicated as clearly as literally seeing things happening through geometry.  I actually don't even think you should be able to see your teammates position on the map through walls, I'm of the mindset that should be communicated as well. Not a fan of the killfeed showcasing who has what weapons, arrows over teammates heads, automated player chatter calling things out that the player themselves might not have even seen (MW anyone? Your character will shout MOVEMENT if someone's toe pops up on the other side of the map).  GIve me none of that honestly. I'd get rid of the kill feed too if it wasn't completely necessary to know the score of the match.

This is really interesting to me and something I haven't put thought into before. Before we discuss the nitty gritty of some of these things, I just want to say I completely agree with the auto-callout being based on "on screen presence" kind of bites. I thought maybe a better way of handling it would be if you landed damage (not explosive or otherwise around the corner damage, but reticule on person visual damage) then an auto-callout would be made. I have a feeling you may be against that as well based on it still being free information which is fine but I think it would at least be better.

What I like about what you suggested is that I think awareness would have to be improved and I think awareness is an interesting skill. I also think "meaningful communication" would have to be improved. One thing I sometimes struggle with in these conversations is that people say communication is a skill, but memorizing callouts on a map and then saying "basement window" when you see an enemy there isn't that interesting to me so I usually lean on the side of give everybody as much information as possible since making simple callouts I think is kind of boring.

I never had the idea that communication being boring was potentially due to too much information though. Where if you know an ally's position and the direction they're moving, you can easily figure out which side to pinch from and the timing to approach once you know where the opponent is. Compared to what you suggested, if I hear just a callout I don't necessarily know the best plan of attack without knowing my teammate's position, which means our timing for the collapsing could be out of sync as well. So we'd have to coordinate better and communication would become more important. While I do think it's possible to have better communication than simple callouts (Frosty is great at this in H5), I think most players especially in random lobbies default to just making callouts and I think what you suggested would force that to improve.

Is there any other aspect of the game you think would change? I'm trying to think if this would effect the pace of the game or if that would stay roughly the same, but I kind of feel it would have to be tried to know for sure. Also what would your thoughts be about the general LAN experience and screen watching in that environment? Would you be in favor of separating players so they can't see each other's screens?

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The age of the in-game mic is over. It's not coming back.

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1 hour ago, Silos said:

This is really interesting to me and something I haven't put thought into before. Before we discuss the nitty gritty of some of these things, I just want to say I completely agree with the auto-callout being based on "on screen presence" kind of bites. I thought maybe a better way of handling it would be if you landed damage (not explosive or otherwise around the corner damage, but reticule on person visual damage) then an auto-callout would be made. I have a feeling you may be against that as well based on it still being free information which is fine but I think it would at least be better.

What I like about what you suggested is that I think awareness would have to be improved and I think awareness is an interesting skill. I also think "meaningful communication" would have to be improved. One thing I sometimes struggle with in these conversations is that people say communication is a skill, but memorizing callouts on a map and then saying "basement window" when you see an enemy there isn't that interesting to me so I usually lean on the side of give everybody as much information as possible since making simple callouts I think is kind of boring.

I never had the idea that communication being boring was potentially due to too much information though. Where if you know an ally's position and the direction they're moving, you can easily figure out which side to pinch from and the timing to approach once you know where the opponent is. Compared to what you suggested, if I hear just a callout I don't necessarily know the best plan of attack without knowing my teammate's position, which means our timing for the collapsing could be out of sync as well. So we'd have to coordinate better and communication would become more important. While I do think it's possible to have better communication than simple callouts (Frosty is great at this in H5), I think most players especially in random lobbies default to just making callouts and I think what you suggested would force that to improve.

Is there any other aspect of the game you think would change? I'm trying to think if this would effect the pace of the game or if that would stay roughly the same, but I kind of feel it would have to be tried to know for sure. Also what would your thoughts be about the general LAN experience and screen watching in that environment? Would you be in favor of separating players so they can't see each other's screens?

It'd probably make low level games very sporadic and high level games more intentional, more skillful I think.  There's something immensely satisfying about very intentional communication with a teammate, especially in 2's, where you call something out and your partner reacts to that.  It's essentially a combination of trust, communication skills, and good decision making.  A lot of that is absent because the game is forcing it to be absent through things being just handed to you.   The extreme example of this is Destiny's radar system where there is no way to actually remove yourself from the radar ever (unless you're a hunter and go invis but I'll bitch about Hunters another time).  Once you're within ~100m it pulses red in the general direction you're coming from.  There is no such thing as flanking in Destiny against even a mid level team with decent communication because the game is putting you on blast and doing all the work for you.  Obviously this is a hyper extreme example but the byproduct of that is, you don't need to communicate that much. And not in a good way.  

EDIT: As for LAN events with viewing monitors, I don't know honestly I hadn't thought about that.  It's a good point.

18 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

The age of the in-game mic is over. It's not coming back.

There's probably ways to trick it.  You can filter in-game chat through headsets as game audio instead of party chat on a separate channel, I think Xbox 360 backwards compat games had a bug where this happened so I could hear people talking in game playing Halo reach while being in an xbox one party.  Just hearing someone through voice chat sometimes is enough to make the decision to hop in sometimes.  Also I think it would be cool if voice chat that was projected in the game world was proximity based and had actual fall-off over distance like something in the real world would work.  I don't know, we might just not have seen the right game yet.

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1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

The age of the in-game mic is over. It's not coming back.

Doesn't Modern Warfare Warzone have a brief moment after you kill someone where you can hear them?  I'm pretty sure it does because I have heard people go "What the Fu..." 

 

I miss the proximity chat from Halo 2.  I'll never forget people getting close to our base trying to arm the bomb and talking about their strategy and we could hear them lol. Classic. I don't see why it can't be an option in the game and if you don't want to hear people shouting obscenities and racist bullshit, you can just turn it off. I think it can lead to memorable moments and situations.  But it has to be something you can turn off for the easily offended, streamers, etc,  

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6 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

I am actually very much on the opposite side of the aisle as most of you here I think.  I can't stand the amount of free information given by most of these systems, the teammate outline through walls for example - if I see my teammate's outline shooting facing a certain direction, the game has just told me exactly where the enemy is because of where my teammate is looking.  That was not communicated, and it probably would never have been communicated as clearly as literally seeing things happening through geometry.  I actually don't even think you should be able to see your teammates position on the map through walls, I'm of the mindset that should be communicated as well. Not a fan of the killfeed showcasing who has what weapons, arrows over teammates heads, automated player chatter calling things out that the player themselves might not have even seen (MW anyone? Your character will shout MOVEMENT if someone's toe pops up on the other side of the map).  GIve me none of that honestly. I'd get rid of the kill feed too if it wasn't completely necessary to know the score of the match.

You're describing a tactical shooter. I love tactical shooters for all the reasons you outlined but I do not personally want that experience in Halo which is a casual shooter.

By definition most players are average and average players don't have the ability, let alone the desire, to take in that level of information without some assistance.

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4 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

You're describing a tactical shooter. I love tactical shooters for all the reasons you outlined but I do not personally want that experience in Halo which is a casual shooter.

By definition most players are average and average players don't have the ability, let alone the desire, to take in that level of information without some assistance.

Well, I suppose I myself don't really see why we'd draw that distinction.  I'm just trying to avoid the scenario where I die, because the game explicitly told the enemy something they never would've known otherwise.  Same reason loud footsteps bother me. I understand where you're coming from, and I think at the end of the day this is a minor thing in the scope of the game - I'm really just throwing out design hypotheticals.

 

We'll see when my project's multiplayer becomes playable if we can indeed easily function with minimal information.  

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1 hour ago, RatherSilentMr said:

Doesn't Modern Warfare Warzone have a brief moment after you kill someone where you can hear them?  I'm pretty sure it does because I have heard people go "What the Fu..." 

 

I miss the proximity chat from Halo 2.  I'll never forget people getting close to our base trying to arm the bomb and talking about their strategy and we could hear them lol. Classic. I don't see why it can't be an option in the game and if you don't want to hear people shouting obscenities and racist bullshit, you can just turn it off. I think it can lead to memorable moments and situations.  But it has to be something you can turn off for the easily offended, streamers, etc,  

The best/funniest thing about Halo 2 was just being able to talk to the other team. Pretending to be them/their teammates and giving them false callouts until they figured it out was pretty fun too

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2 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

We'll see when my project's multiplayer becomes playable if we can indeed easily function with minimal information.  

You can. I love Insurgency Sandstorm hardcore Co-op because there is zero HUD. No free info. Only real comms and sounds/sights.

But that level doesn't work for Halo imo. In fact it'd be quite gross. I'd be interested to see what you come up with though.

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18 hours ago, Shekkles said:

This would favour parties even more as a solo player wouldn't have this knowledge but the party would call it out.

You're right now that I think about it.

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9 hours ago, Boyo said:

In certain parts of campaign, Chief gets assisted by a mysterious, black and yellow Spartan with unique weapons and abilities.  Seeing this sidekick operate in campaign shows the player what s/he is capable of.  In multiplayer, a Bumblebee power up transforms the player into this hero, in both looks and abilities.  

It’s not speedboost and it’s not damage boost but it does increase your mobility and it does increase your attack capabilities while giving off a unique visual tell.  While a custom set of weapons and abilities may seem daunting to roll into a single pick-up, the creation and presence of a real campaign character lends weight and legitimacy to this hero power-up in multiplayer.  

Image result for old school bumblebee transformers

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11 hours ago, _Synapse said:

As far as audiovisual feedback goes:

- Punchy firing sound.

- Bright shield flare (that's clearly distinct for each shot taken).

- Stronger physics impulses on bullets.

- Ragdoll body physics. 

 

All you really need. This is why using the H2BR and H3BR is so satisfying, even if they aren't good utility weapons. 

I don't think 2 and 3 had ragdoll physics, they just flailed their arms in the air a couple times.

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29 minutes ago, hvs500 said:

You're right now that I think about it.

I have now changed two peoples views. I am going to let this go to my head and become a YouTube influencer who unironically tells people that money isn't everything mid-ad.

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10 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

 

There's probably ways to trick it.  You can filter in-game chat through headsets as game audio instead of party chat on a separate channel, I think Xbox 360 backwards compat games had a bug where this happened so I could hear people talking in game playing Halo reach while being in an xbox one party.  Just hearing someone through voice chat sometimes is enough to make the decision to hop in sometimes.  Also I think it would be cool if voice chat that was projected in the game world was proximity based and had actual fall-off over distance like something in the real world would work.  I don't know, we might just not have seen the right game yet.

I mean, consoles could just catch up to PC's instead of all this wild "gotta trick the system into thinking game voice is game sounds so you can hear it in a party."

I can play MCC with mates in a discord channel, and switch seamlessly to in-game chat if there's ever a need too. 

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I am surprised 343 didn't try to run online event with decent prizepool to fill the void. With commentary and all the things that can be done online. Pair it together with some news, announcement, trailer, something. 

Also, the delay is good for one thing. Once Infinite is out, covid will be hopefully mostly gone and lan events possible.

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17 hours ago, Shekkles said:

The age of the in-game mic is over. It's not coming back.

I don't entirely agree with it, considering it's still actively used in PC shooters. I can accept the fact that it's a dying chat medium where text and VoIP services are available to more games and players respectively.

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