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Halo Infinite Discussion

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@_Synapse

What I said applies to your alternative mechanics too, not just controllable recoil.

Yeah it's minor, it wouldn't detract a lot from my experience, but it wouldn't add anything that I value either. FPS is the only genre I can think of where these kind of small obstacles are cherished, and I think it's both unecessary and counterproductive to success, and barely anyone is talking about it.

Recoil is countered by pulling down. Upwards stick drift is countered by pulling down. Same skill used is the point. At least the stick drift I've faced has been mostly what you said.

There absolutely is a higher barrier of entry. Barrier of entry is the skill required to use something at the most basic level (hit shots in this case). Have you never seen anyone inexperienced play? Recoil would make it harder for them, and not really affect us much. Same with other mechanics like fixed spray patterns.

You could defend gun weight pulling your weapon down, having to be compensated for by pulling up, with the exact same reasoning of mastery and learning curves. Only it'd apply to the entire game! Nice.

 

If you want a gun that players can master, design a weapon that has more interactions with the rest lf the game, don't fuck with my input.

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4 minutes ago, potetr said:

design a weapon that has more interactions with the rest lf the game

Could you provide some examples?  What does this mean?  

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

Could you provide some examples?  What does this mean?  

Sure, by "interactions with the rest of the game", I mean weapons having interesting traits that shine differently when facing/using map geometry, melee, grenades, powerups, other weapons etc. Like the guns in the follwing (unfinished) spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WY8_mAlrTvLVUzs0ADK-D0-0-hPfFHcZsFdrNRabT_E/edit?usp=sharing

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8 minutes ago, Basu said:

Using a kick as falling melee that deals more damage is a great idea.

Are all airborne melees kicks?  Not sure if I want that, seems hard to aim.  

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3 hours ago, Boyo said:

Isn’t that essentially a sniper rifle?  

Not in the least.  As a projectile you could add damage fall-off range incrementals and/or gravity effects to drop the shot, and it'd probably be a 3 shot kill at range with slugs (slugs would deal less damage overall)

 

I ran a 6x Scope Slug Shotgun on my Vanu character in PlanetSide 2 before they added gravity to Vanu shotguns, though...it was essentially a Scout Rifle.

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28 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

Stop trying to make every gun take skill, or be competitive. Some guns are meant to be piss easy and strong! 
 

This shouldn't be the case.  Every gun should be fun.  Every gun should be easy to understand how to use.

 

In an ideal scenario, all the guns have room for skill differentiation, whether by mechanical outplays or by nuance.

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Here is video I made where I talk about other video I made as well as video I haven’t made yet.  Enjoy.  

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57 minutes ago, TiberiusAudley said:

This shouldn't be the case.  Every gun should be fun.  Every gun should be easy to understand how to use.

 

In an ideal scenario, all the guns have room for skill differentiation, whether by mechanical outplays or by nuance.

That only applies if the sandbox is small 

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4 hours ago, potetr said:

weapons having interesting traits that shine differently when facing/using map geometry

Spikes will stick in a wall, creating a temporary jump up, if impact is approximately perpendicular.  Angled impacts ricochet up to two times.  Like that?  

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Can't wait when Halo Infinite comes out, and whatever game it might be, I know this place will be hilarious again, other core members will post again...and I won't have to skip whole pages because of dull posts of Reamis.

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On 9/28/2020 at 2:24 AM, The Tyco said:

Shotgun: Consistent, non-random spread. Several tight centered pellets, complemented buy several outer ring pellets. Centered pellets have infinite range while outer pellets dissipate past a few meters. Headshot capable at any range but ineffective at long unless the target is weakened or one-shot, otherwise requiring a beatdown or follow up shots.

Results in a shotgun no longer limited to short range if accurate with the center pellets, and no longer lacking nuance at close range, while still retaining important shotgun properties.

 

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To play devils advocate: Aren't we always against overlap and the sandbox and diluting weapon roles? Why are we now suggesting the shotgun to have properties of the utility?

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

To play devils advocate: Aren't we always against overlap and the sandbox and diluting weapon roles? Why are we now suggesting the shotgun to have properties of the utility?

No scoping gives the sniper rifle properties of the shotgun.  Overlap!  

Allowing the shotgun to give more than a friendly wave hello to an opponent outside of arm’s reach isn’t diluting weapon roles.  It’s correcting the design of a power weapon in a game where the player can only hold two weapons.  If players can’t move around confidently with a power weapon then all you’ve done is create a corner camper by designing a weapon that is by far most effective when used in such a manner.  

A shotgun that simultaneously fires a spread of lethal close-range pellets as well as an accurate long-range slug with each trigger pull removes the ball and chain shackling the user to ambush locations only.  
 

Magnum (utility weapon) - [email protected] (0.3s fire delay) 

Shotgun (center slug) - [email protected] (0.45s fire delay) 

Shotgun RoF vs Magnum RoF

 

 

 


 

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14 hours ago, Basu said:

Using a kick as falling melee that deals more damage is a great idea.

But is that a popular mechanic?

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18 hours ago, potetr said:

 

Yeah it's minor, it wouldn't detract a lot from my experience, but it wouldn't add anything that I value either. FPS is the only genre I can think of where these kind of small obstacles are cherished, and I think it's both unecessary and counterproductive to success, and barely anyone is talking about it.

This mechanic is intended to increase the level of skill required to land each shot, so that there's more distinction between the Repeater and the Rifle. I don't consider it an obstacle. 

18 hours ago, potetr said:

 

Recoil is countered by pulling down. Upwards stick drift is countered by pulling down. Same skill used is the point. At least the stick drift I've faced has been mostly what you said.

Dude, this is such a backwards and limiting way of thinking about mechanics. Recoil affects your input just as much as projectile bullets and weapons that need to be scoped for RRR do. 

18 hours ago, potetr said:

@_Synapse

There absolutely is a higher barrier of entry. Barrier of entry is the skill required to use something at the most basic level (hit shots in this case). Have you never seen anyone inexperienced play? Recoil would make it harder for them, and not really affect us much. Same with other mechanics like fixed spray patterns.

The barrier of entry is the ability for players to be able to pick up a weapon or not, not the minimum skill required to use it. This is just semantics, but a better label is something like "average skill requirement" or "minimum skill requirement". 

Though yeah, the point is to make the average difficulty to use proportional to the lethality of the weapon. This is a weapon that can bring someone to one-shot within 0.2 seconds, from across a map (thanks to projectile speed and scope). I don't think new players should walk into the game, and be able to immediately reach the effectiveness of the weapon normally limited to the right side of the skill curve.  

I used recoil and patterned fire because they're easy alternatives to lowering the projectile speed, which just pulls the weapon into redundant territory. 

18 hours ago, potetr said:

@_Synapse

You could defend gun weight pulling your weapon down, having to be compensated for by pulling up, with the exact same reasoning of mastery and learning curves. Only it'd apply to the entire game! Nice.

It'd be 10x more obnoxious to have the effect occur even when the gun wasn't being fired. More importantly, it wouldn't serve any purpose (or a very small one). Not even considering whether said purpose is desirable. 

18 hours ago, potetr said:

@_Synapse

If you want a gun that players can master, design a weapon that has more interactions with the rest lf the game, don't fuck with my input.

Yes, "meaningful interactions" is what we're going for. There's a ton of depth to combat in Halo with respect to range, height differences, cover differences, teamshotting, predictable movement, strafes, melee, etc. We want to maximize interactions across the depth of the whole sandbox - including the use of plasma weaponry at range. 

Also, a kick is a great idea. Probably better than the standard melee, because you can give a kick more use in regards to movement. Imagine if to perform a jump like G1-G2, you have to kick at a specific point rather than throwing your momentum up a slope. 

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I don't really see the shotgun as needing a smart-scoped mode to fire a slug as opposed to the traditional buckshot. If we want to give the shotgun any threatening power outside of medium range, simply tighten up the spread and make it much more consistent. To make it harder to use, lower the projectile speed to where players have to account for it at the edge of the shotgun's range. I'd tune it to take 1.5-2x as much leading as the projectile weapon. 

How much maximum effective range should a shotgun have, though? 

Personally, from the blue end of long hall to the red end of long hall. At that range, the average player should be getting 2SKs with the shotgun. A very skilled player should be getting 1SKs at the same range. 

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3 hours ago, Boyo said:

No scoping gives the sniper rifle properties of the shotgun.  Overlap!

 

Some people do actually say that, but it's not really a good point. I thought with Halo on PC this would come up again and mouse gods would be noscoping left and right , but apparently no one uses MKB.

Quote

 

Allowing the shotgun to give more than a friendly wave hello to an opponent outside of arm’s reach isn’t diluting weapon roles.  It’s correcting the design of a power weapon in a game where the player can only hold two weapons.  If players can’t move around confidently with a power weapon then all you’ve done is create a corner camper by designing a weapon that is by far most effective when used in such a manner.  

A shotgun that simultaneously fires a spread of lethal close-range pellets as well as an accurate long-range slug with each trigger pull removes the ball and chain shackling the user to ambush locations only.  
 

Magnum (utility weapon) - [email protected] (0.3s fire delay) 

Shotgun (center slug) - [email protected] (0.45s fire delay) 

 

Sure, but there's still a huge gap between extending the shotgun's range with a tighter spread and turning it into a no spread 3sk with headshot bonus.

Basically what Synapse above said. Tighter spread, longer damage fallof. Give it a slow bullet velocity so you have to lead (scattershot is actually cool in this regard).

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What if we explored a greater variety of melee damage specific to different weapons? Would this encourage the development different guns to perform better in CQC strictly by firing if their ability to beat down a player wasnt synonomous with other weapons? Or would this create too many inconsistencies? 

 

What I'm trying to address is what I feel is Halo 3's second biggest weakness, a rather bland cqc that mostly results in beatdowns. 

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2 minutes ago, Obnokshus said:

What if we explored a greater variety of melee damage specific to different weapons? Would this encourage different guns to perform better in CQC if their ability to beat down a player wasnt synonomous with other weapons? 

How much meaningful room is there between the standard two hit kill melee and the one hit kill sword?  This is why alt-fire is so important to the sandbox as a whole; it can give weapons identity outside their traditional single function.  The sword can be more than just a super-melee.  

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7 hours ago, Hemlax said:

Can't wait when Halo Infinite comes out, and whatever game it might be, I know this place will be hilarious again, other core members will post again...and I won't have to skip whole pages because of dull posts of Reamis.

Stfu you never say anything worth a damn anyway 

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