Jump to content
CyReN

Halo Infinite Discussion

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

Shot guns in my opinion are the most frustrating gun in any video game.

1. Inconsistency. There’s many times where spread of the pellets gets the better of you and even though your aim was the same as always and 8/10 times you’ll get the kill sometimes rng takes hold.

2. Underpowered or overpowered. The shot gun is either too weak to use, or it’s too op.

3. Too easy. Shot guns 9/10 times are always super easy to hit with. They always have large reticules for hip fire so it makes ads with them obsolete because there’s no point. However  in halos 5 case it was even worse when the shotty had increased range by ADS. 

Conclusion: shot guns are just annoying to play against and trying to make them take some skill is a waste of time. If it’s not one hit kill in its respective range then the gun is now worthless. Sure you can make it two hit kill but now you must have a fast ROF shot gun so now the balance you tried making is again obsolete. Apex legends, halo, cod, etc. 

The problem with shotguns is that the number one resource in Halo is space.  To control space, you have to exert pressure.  To exert pressure, you have to be a threat.  With a shotgun, you only threaten a small space, because of its extremely limited range.  Your threat is at its highest if you aren't visible but the enemy knows you are in an area -- because by wielding a weapon that kills instantly in its only effective range, you discourage enemies from moving where they know you are.

The issue, of course, is that as long as you wield that weapon, and not one with greater range (like a rifle), you're not really claiming new space on the map.  You're able to keep the space you have, and that's it.

With regards to the underpowered/overpowered, if a shotgun does not exert pressure outside of its close range, it -has- to be able to kill instantly, reliably within the close range or else it has no place in the wider sandbox.  If it IS able to kill reliably within that range, without much room for counterplay for opponents, it feels oppressive.  By giving shotguns more options outside of CQB, you're able to pull power out of their instant kill threat.

 

Halo 5 alleviated some of this with the Scattershot's ADS, an ability to make bounced shots track a target and turn the wide, consistent spread into a shot that converges into one point.  This was honestly the best iteration of a shotgun I've seen in an FPS as far as turning a shotgun into a weapon that exerts some pressure in actual player LoS, rather than just around corners as a "I can't go there I'll die" deterrent.

This is all a large part of why I've also consistently said the Needler would work great if the melee were replaced with a conical discharge of all the remaining needles in a clip, potentially turning to a Supercombine.  It gives you the open space control of a default Needler, but gives the weapon a larger threat of "Do not approach the pink mist."

  • Like (+1) 4
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

No one knows the game = it sucks 

Please shut up.

6 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

Well that shit doesn’t to apply to h5 as individual plays and skill was on the table 24/7. Hell h5 had tons of people watching tourneys. Worlds had 100K+  viewers and for halo that’s a lot. Do you think ce is any better? No one in the comp crowd even likes that game, and you think it’s because it’s too hard when no that’s not the reason. 

H5 had tons of people watching tourneys during the fucking HWC period, when H5 was the newest Halo and there was a literal million dollar prize pool. 

People don't actively dislike CE in the comp crowd lmfao, they're just indifferent towards it because competing in CE makes zero sense for them. It's a game with a niche viewerbase and an even more niche playerbase, it gives them zero money to compete towards or content to produce. 

You want Halo to retain the worst parts of itself, to actively stagnate and become irrelevant in a world of increasingly competitive and eSports-viable shooters. Why? Because "I don't play Quake and no one plays Quake anymore it's not the early 2000's". You're every bit as bad as the reddit kids. 

Seriously, you argue with everybody on this thread about practically self-evident things. Do you actually think that new players want to play 8 BRs on Pit in 2021? Is that your idea of Halo being elevated to it's absolute best? 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

H5 only had good viewership for HWC's for 3 big reasons:

- Massive prize pool that was/is a record (2016)

- OpTic name drawing in some viewers (2017)

- Ninja host (2018)

Halo 5 viewership peaked during HWC for reasons outside of the game itself. Because the game itself is a worse version of any other modern fps.

  • Like (+1) 5
  • Fire (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

Well that shit doesn’t to apply to h5 as individual plays and skill was on the table 24/7. Hell h5 had tons of people watching tourneys. Worlds had 100K+  viewers and for halo that’s a lot. Do you think ce is any better? No one in the comp crowd even likes that game, and you think it’s because it’s too hard when no that’s not the reason. 

Why does literally everything revolve around popularity to you? Even for something as minor as the shotgun mechanics. You're like a walking argumentum ad populum fallacy. You think any H5 HWC viewer would decide to stop watching because its shotgun didn't perform like the shotguns in CoD or Apex?

  • Fire (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

Why does literally everything revolve around popularity to you? Even for something as minor as the shotgun mechanics. You're like a walking argumentum ad populum fallacy. You think any H5 HWC viewer would decide to stop watching because its shotgun didn't perform like the shotguns in CoD or Apex?

Because without a big audience the game dies. Are we forgetting Esports is first and foremost supposed to be spectator sports here? If nobody is watching then there is no competition. Why do you think MLG dropped the fucker 8 years ago. Which is insane it's been that long. 

None the less. Popularity is all that matters in esports. you need fans and Halo has NONE 

Halo needs to be fun and competitive again. Halo's fun factor has not be around since H3 for the casual fans that made Halo an esport

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, Bloodshot1990 said:

Because without a big audience the game dies. Are we forgetting Esports is first and foremost supposed to be spectator sports here? If nobody is watching then there is no competition. Why do you think MLG dropped the fucker 8 years ago. Which is insane it's been that long. 

None the less. Popularity is all that matters in esports. you need fans and Halo has NONE 

Halo needs to be fun and competitive again. Halo's fun factor has not be around since H3 for the casual fans that made Halo an esport

I understand that, but we're talking about the shotgun here.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
44 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

Why does literally everything revolve around popularity to you? Even for something as minor as the shotgun mechanics. You're like a walking argumentum ad populum fallacy. You think any H5 HWC viewer would decide to stop watching because its shotgun didn't perform like the shotguns in CoD or Apex?

Because popularity is important. And no but if you’re going to bring up something use a game that people have played within the past 3 years. If something isn’t liked by the masses then honestly it’s not that good. This doesn’t apply to everything but in terms of gaming I think it’s important. 

  • Downvote (-1) 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, _Synapse said:

People don't actively dislike CE in the comp crowd lmfao, they're just indifferent towards it because competing in CE makes zero sense for them. It's a game with a niche viewerbase and an even more niche playerbase, it gives them zero money to compete towards or content to produce. 

You know maybe it would get tournaments if people actually liked the game which most don’t. Even when a prize pool is offered no one except the die hards even plays in the small tourneys y’all create. 

  • Downvote (-1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Reamis25 said:

Because popularity is important. And no but if you’re going to bring up something use a game that people have played within the past 3 years. If something isn’t liked by the masses then honestly it’s not that good. This doesn’t apply to everything but in terms of gaming I think it’s important. 

Explain why the time-frame in which the game was released has any bearing on the merits of the mechanic itself.

This is literally the trap 343 has fallen into—only looking at what is popular for inspiration rather than thinking, abstractly, about how to make the game better. If a mechanic makes the game better and is popular, great! But forgoing good mechanics because they come from "a game that people have[n't] played within the past 3 years" is terrible logic.

Edit: And just to head off the vague "popularity is important" re-emphasis I'm sure you're going to throw out—please explain how the shotgun mechanics of Quake have any bearing on the popularity of the game.

Achieving popularity is undoubtedly important, but this is a chicken and the egg issue. How do you get popular? It's not just about adopting mechanics from popular games—H4 and H5 have shown us that that is not enough. What matters far more is making a good game.

Good Game --> Popular Mechanics

Popular Mechanics -/-> Good Game

  • Fire (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

Explain why the time-frame in which the game was released has any bearing on the merits of the mechanic itself.

This is literally the trap 343 has fallen into—only looking at what is popular for inspiration rather than thinking, abstractly, about how to make the game better. If a mechanic makes the game better and is popular, great! But forgoing good mechanics because they come from "a game that people have[n't] played within the past 3 years" is terrible logic.

Edit: And just to head off the vague "popularity is important" re-emphasis I'm sure you're going to throw out—please explain how the shotgun mechanics of Quake have any bearing on the popularity of the game.

Achieving popularity is undoubtedly important, but this is a chicken and the egg issue. How do you get popular? It's not just about adopting mechanics from popular games—H4 and H5 have shown us that that is not enough. What matters far more is making a good game.

Good Game --> Popular Mechanics

NOT

Popular Mechanics --> Good Game

The shotgun mechanics of quake would work significantly different in halo and I’m positive we’d just have another version of h5s shotty since you don’t have armor majority of the time. Don’t bring up a gun that works x and try to make it look like it’s not op when ignoring other factors. 

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

The shotgun mechanics of quake would work significantly different in halo and I’m positive we’d just have another version of h5s shotty since you don’t have armor majority of the time. Don’t bring up a gun that works x and try to make it look like it’s not op when ignoring other factors. 

No one is disputing the fact that the Quake shotgun loses effectiveness once people acquire armor. What people are saying is that the actual mechanics of the gun—i.e., the fact that it (i) requires every pellet to connect for a kill and (ii) has a far more aggressive spread pattern—make it a viable remedy to the problems that plague Halo's shotguns. No one is "ignoring other factors"—they're looking at the factors that matter in the Halo context.

It seems like you're the one doing the ignoring—you're dismissing the actual mechanics of the gun without addressing why those attributes wouldn't work in a Halo context. If you care to enlighten us on how a less forgiving damage rate and a more aggressive spread pattern would create "another version of h5s shotty", please tell us.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

The problem with shotguns is that the number one resource in Halo is space.  To control space, you have to exert pressure.  To exert pressure, you have to be a threat.  With a shotgun, you only threaten a small space, because of its extremely limited range.

8 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

By giving shotguns more options outside of CQB, you're able to pull power out of their instant kill threat.

How could the human shotgun be modified to realize these goals?  

8 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

This is all a large part of why I've also consistently said the Needler would work great if the melee were replaced with a conical discharge of all the remaining needles in a clip, potentially turning to a Supercombine.  It gives you the open space control of a default Needler, but gives the weapon a larger threat of "Do not approach the pink mist."

The Needler doesn’t have a scope so that button goes unused.  Instead of taking away melee to create room for this new attack, why not map it to the unused scope button?  

 

1 hour ago, Bloodshot1990 said:

Halo needs to be fun and competitive again. Halo's fun factor has not be around since H3 for the casual fans that made Halo an esport

I think we could make Halo fun again by taking a different approach to the “make the player feel like a super soldier” route, forgoing the assortment of trite base movement abilities.  Make weapons more versatile with alt-fire.  Make movement more versatile with armor and aerial abilities.  Make deployables, like a tight class of useful equipment that provide various niche advantages, worth picking up but not gamebreaking.  Implement a sidearm system that allows for a holstered utility while two other weapons are equipped as primary and secondary.  Toss in a new BTB-focused power up and an Arena-focused grenade type.  Add a couple new vehicles that aren’t just a Mongoose with guns.  

Halo’s power lies in its sandbox.  The controller is the sandbox activator.  It is of the utmost importance to design the button layout in such a way that allows the player to fire, throw, activate, or deploy as much of the sandbox as possible.  This way, players can become truely unique, fire different weapons, throw different grenades, activate different abilities, deploy different equipment.  The goal of equal starts is not to make players remain equal forever, quite the opposite in fact.  Equal starts is just the base point before players customize their capabilities by moving around the map and picking up different items.  

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

No one is disputing the fact that the Quake shotgun loses effectiveness once people acquire armor. What people are saying is that the actual mechanics of the gun—i.e., the fact that it (i) requires every pellet to connect for a kill and (ii) has a far more aggressive spread pattern—make it a viable remedy to the problems that plague Halo's shotguns. No one is "ignoring other factors"—they're looking at the factors that matter in the Halo context.

It seems like you're the one doing the ignoring—you're dismissing the actual mechanics of the gun without addressing why those attributes wouldn't work in a Halo context. If you care to enlighten us on how a less forgiving damage rate and a more aggressive spread pattern would create "another version of h5s shotty", please tell us.

A regressive spread pattern is what people don’t like about shotguns which can make them underpowered. No one likes a gun that misses because you’re off by a centimeter. 

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

A regressive spread pattern is what people don’t like about shotguns which can make them underpowered. No one likes a gun that misses because you’re off by a centimeter. 

See, this is a tailored argument. I just want to note that my problem here (and really with most of your arguments) is not with the point you're actually trying to make but with how you make it. Avoid the appeals to popularity and try to narrow in on the actual argument the other person is making—it's far more persuasive that way.

As for the actual substance: what if the spread pattern is static though? Earlier you mentioned one of the core issues with the Halo shotgun is its inconsistency when firing the exact same way. If the spread pattern is more aggressive, but static, you don't run into that issue.

 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I know it's tempting to respond because his posts are low-hanging fruit, but please stop.

  • Like (+1) 5

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

See, this is a tailored argument. I just want to note that my problem here (and really with most of your arguments) is not with the point you're actually trying to make but with how you make it. Avoid the appeals to popularity and try to narrow in on the actual argument the other person is making—it's far more persuasive that way.

As for the actual substance: what if the spread pattern is static though? Earlier you mentioned one of the core issues with the Halo shotgun is its inconsistency when firing the exact same way. If the spread pattern is more aggressive, but static, you don't run into that issue.

 

It doesn’t matter if the spread is static the fact is it has spread period which can bring about frustrations in the gun. This can still cause a sense of inconsistency where if someone who aims on them is off by a hair doesn’t get the kill. 

Share this post


Link to post
On 12/21/2020 at 5:49 AM, _Synapse said:

Which reason do you have in mind as to why you'd prefer a 4-shot burst? I picked 2 because first of all, "repeater", and also because I felt it'd be a decent spot for the weapon between "precision plasma weapon" and "fills the air with projectiles". 

I really want to avoid giving weapons outright lethality, especially plasma weapons. There's a lot of meaningful "subtle" aspects of both close quarters and medium quarters combat in Halo, and creating weapons that have super high lethality just kind of washes all those subtleties away. In my sandbox, there'd be a Needle Rifle to approximately in the role of what you describe. 

This gun's thing is that it's a very effective ranged shield stripper, and partners well with just about every headshot/human weapon. 0.2 seconds for a burst, followed by a 0.1 second swap animation, gives the player 0.3 seconds to deliver a killing headshot. Alternatively, the player can choose to make several opponents  one shot. 

 

You could substitute recoil with anything else tbf. Recoil is there so that there's another layer of difficulty in shooting precisely with the weapon, and so the player has to develop a cadence for adjusting their reticle relative to the enemy. I could have lowered the projectile velocity but that would start to dip the weapon into a territory where it's not the type of weapon I envisioned. 

To remedy the issue, you could have the each bolt in a 3-bolt burst fire in a set triangular pattern. 

Four shots just to deny a peek for longer, or cover a wider area.

 

Yes, but WHY do do want another layer of mechanical-only difficulty? It's ok if you want for example recoil, but then you have to acknowledge you want to test for the same skill you use to counter stick drift. I'm getting at that all skills aren't fun, and besides, this one's impact is literally trained away, that's its entire purpose. So what is left exactly? Only a higher barrier of entry.

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, potetr said:

Yes, but WHY do do want another layer of mechanical-only difficulty? It's ok if you want for example recoil, but then you have to acknowledge you want to test for the same skill you use to counter stick drift. I'm getting at that all skills aren't fun, and besides, this one's impact is literally trained away, that's its entire purpose. So what is left exactly? Only a higher barrier of entry.

Precision weapons encourage aiming for the head.  Shotguns encourage aiming center mass.  A four round burst with vertical recoil encourages aiming near the groin.  Testing players’ aim in different ways is good.  

  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

@Boyo 

You need to stop listing simplistic lists of differing traits as if they are some kind of analysis.

I don't know if you missed the point entirely or not, but either way your post is just a straw man so I won't bother replying.

Share this post


Link to post

Having different weapons be most effective when attacking different parts of the body is good for weapon diversity.  You disagree?

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, potetr said:

Four shots just to deny a peek for longer, or cover a wider area.

 

Yes, but WHY do do want another layer of mechanical-only difficulty? It's ok if you want for example recoil, but then you have to acknowledge you want to test for the same skill you use to counter stick drift. I'm getting at that all skills aren't fun, and besides, this one's impact is literally trained away, that's its entire purpose. So what is left exactly? Only a higher barrier of entry.

I feel like there's enough sandbox elements that "deny peeks".

I acknowledged that you could accomplish the desired affect through other ways too, not necessarily solely through recoil. I don't know why you're getting hung up on it. 

Stick drift and recoil adjustment are completely different things lol. Recoil is predictable, controllable, and consistent. Stick drift is none of those. This is such a weird hill to die on. 

There is no "higher" barrier of entry. The point is to give the weapon a learning curve, so that people are encouraged to practice with it and learn to master it. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Boyo said:

How could the human shotgun be modified to realize these goals?  

When scoped, fires slug rounds instead of standard ammunition.  Slow-firing, single shot projectile, potential headshot damage bonus.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, TiberiusAudley said:

When scoped, fires slug rounds instead of standard ammunition.  Slow-firing, single shot projectile, potential headshot damage bonus.

Isn’t that essentially a sniper rifle?  

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.