Jump to content
CyReN

Halo Infinite Discussion

Recommended Posts

To bring up an infinitely more useful discussion, 

How do we make an extremely skill-demanding utility weapon without alienating casual players? 

There's a few ways to go about doing this, though I'm still posting because this is crucial to the long term population health of any Halo game. 

1) The lowered TTK on the utility weapon allows for a massive decrease in the TTK of other weapons as well, which leads to them having far more viability. An AR with a 1.15 second TTK would be laughably overpowered in a standard Halo game, but is fairly well balanced when the TTK is 0.6 seconds on the utility. Same principle applies to every other weapon. 

2) The utility weapon is replaced with AR + pistol starts in all non-arena modes. 

3) A DMR and a BR coexist in the same sandbox, the DMR inheriting the role of the "skillful utility weapon" and being relegated to arena modes, whereas the BR is somewhat closer to it's Halo 3 iteration (albeit without spread, and a 1-1.2 second TTK). 

4) Casual player retention is compensated for with the addition of lots of other carrots- a huge variety of casual playlists with equally varying gameplay experiences, expanded BTB, more minigames, custom browsers, XP grinds, etc. 

  • Like (+1) 2
  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, _Synapse said:

How do we make an extremely skill-demanding utility weapon without alienating casual players? 

 

Routes we have seen the series take: 

 

A: Fast TTK's: Players can be as good as they can be. Allowing individuals to consistently outplay lesser skilled players, and does not relate a player's efficacy to their shield status. Perhaps a frustrating experience for new players. Positioning an advantage, but not an overwhelming one. 

 

B: Slow TTK's: Players efficacy is tied to their shield status. Difficulty in executing individual plays against multiple opponents. Lots of weak players to clean up due to extended engagement times. Positioning and first shot are overwhelming advantages. 

 

A is beneficial to a competitive environment, but not conducive to new players in an environment. B is less competitive, but succeeds in letting new or poor players achieve kills. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, _Synapse said:

I don't want sprint to exist in any capacity.

But it does and it's never going away.

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
54 minutes ago, Obnokshus said:

Routes we have seen the series take: 

A: Fast TTK's: Players can be as good as they can be. Allowing individuals to consistently outplay lesser skilled players, and does not relate a player's efficacy to their shield status. Perhaps a frustrating experience for new players. Positioning an advantage, but not an overwhelming one. 

B: Slow TTK's: Players efficacy is tied to their shield status. Difficulty in executing individual plays against multiple opponents. Lots of weak players to clean up due to extended engagement times. Positioning and first shot are overwhelming advantages. 

A is beneficial to a competitive environment, but not conducive to new players in an environment. B is less competitive, but succeeds in letting new or poor players achieve kills. 

I think you're too quick to dismiss the frustration of the "I SHOT HIM 100 TIMES, HOW IS HE STILL ALIVE?!" feeling in your analysis of Option (A). Option (A) is probably more appealing to newer players than Option (B) on that basis alone; it just requires a functioning matchmaking system to make sure new players aren't getting destroyed as they're wetting their feet.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Shekkles said:

But it does and it's never going away.

I mean ideally speaking

Infinite is largely gonna be H5.5 as far as gameplay goes, I think all of us have accepted that by now

Share this post


Link to post

If movement abilities were designed as pick ups instead of base traits, what would they look like?  
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

Dude I’ve played hardcore ce and done that to guys who knew what they were doing. I’m not bad at halo unlike the majority of y’all. Though I do suck at ce, Hell The people who play social 4s in ce anyway are usually the ce try Hards who’re sweaty AF.

Do you compensate for having bi-weekly shit takes with having an equally huge ego or something

Go to Waypoint and preach the virtues of having a 2.5 second TTK there

  • Like (+1) 7

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Shekkles said:

But it does and it's never going away.

Kinda like my hatred for sprint.

  • Upvote (+1) 2
  • Simms (+1) 2
  • Fire (+1) 1
  • Toxic (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

In football, players who could quickly change directions were called explosive.  Sprint is the opposite of explosive; Sprint is muddled.  Short, quick, distinct (SQD) movement abilities are superior to a slightly increased forward movement speed because they raise the ceiling for good map design and in turn raise the ceiling for player skill.  

Sprint makes players think the game pace has increased.  SQD movement abilities actually increase game pace without stretching maps out or pointing weapons at the ground.  When SQD movement enhancers are pick ups, arena maps can stay tight while also adding a unique twist to each one, utilizing different items and layouts, accenting different mechannics and augmenting play styles in different ways.  

 

Gravity Gauntlet 

  • cross horizontal gap like forward thrust 
  • climb vertical gap like high jump 
  • close gap in CQC to melee enemy 

 

Gravity Gauntlet is an Aerial Ability.  Press LB (jump) while airborne to lunge a short distance in the direction you are facing.  Other aerial abilities include Jump Jet, Wall Kick, and Glider.  

Jump Jet is essentially a double jump.  Wall Kick propels the player up and away from a wall.  Glider reduces descent speed and increases forward movement speed.  Each one explosive in its own way.  
 

Armor Abilities are equally explosive.  Thruster and Evade are obvious short range, short duration bursts of speed.  Gravity Boots (high-jump, hover, ground-stomp) are similar but operate vertically.  High-jump is an upward burst of speed, hover is an abrupt stop, and ground-stomp is a downward speed burst.  The opposite of gradually ramping up to sprint speed.  

Sphere quickly shrinks and transforms the player into a large ball bearing, allowing the user to roll through a hole in the wall and re-expand on the other side, surprise attacking an enemy.  You’re literally exploding into a room.  

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Shekkles said:

But it does and it's never going away.

I know, this is in the context of what an ideal Halo game should look like. I think that, by now, almost everybody's come to terms with Infinite having H5.5 gameplay. 

Question is, what changes are necessary/greatly appreciated in the breathing room that they've given us? 

No brainers: People can't have laser beam autos that challenge the utility weapon at medium range with only a 0.1 second gap in perfect TTK. 

15 hours ago, Obnokshus said:

Routes we have seen the series take: 

A: Fast TTK's: Players can be as good as they can be. Allowing individuals to consistently outplay lesser skilled players, and does not relate a player's efficacy to their shield status. Perhaps a frustrating experience for new players. Positioning an advantage, but not an overwhelming one. 

B: Slow TTK's: Players efficacy is tied to their shield status. Difficulty in executing individual plays against multiple opponents. Lots of weak players to clean up due to extended engagement times. Positioning and first shot are overwhelming advantages. 

A is beneficial to a competitive environment, but not conducive to new players in an environment. B is less competitive, but succeeds in letting new or poor players achieve kills. 

The issue is that an uncompromising approach to A may be very alienating to a casual audience that doesn't touch ranked modes.

There's plenty of stuff that happened over the past year that should shake everybody's faith in A. The tantrum over DMRs in BTB, the recent outcry over skins being ranked rewards, and the overall attitude that casual players have towards CE ("The pistol is so overpowered and unfun to fight agaist!"). 

This is similar to a hurdle that nearly every AFPS on the market has to face, that the genre has been characterized as being incredibly difficult to enter and have fun for an average player. 

Contrast this to CoD or something. People can hop on with little to no existing skill, and do well enough to keep themselves entertained. The game also gives them incentives to grind and the perception of sandbox variety, so they keep playing. A guy can reach a resptectable level in CoD, and the same amount of time invested in Quake would only be enough to understand the basics of duelling. 

Share this post


Link to post

I think we're conflating issues with the systems in place with the utility weapon. 

You can have a skill-based utility weapon and still appeal to casual players. The first line of defense is to ensure that casual players aren't paired off against really good players unless they choose to be. That solves every perceived balancing problem people use against skill-based weapons. The second level of defense is having a well-balanced sandbox that works in conjunction with the utility weapon, and clearly differentiates the relative power of each weapon. 

But I would further argue that players are okay with getting destroyed in a game if they see a clear reason for it and a clear path towards their own improvement. There have been plenty of games that are more accessible than Halo games that have completely bombed because the casual appeal of a game is not solely based on how easy it is to slay other players. Every feature-rich, well-made game that has a deep skill gap has been highly popular and highly regarded. Why are we operating under the assumption that a deep skill-gap turns off new players? Where is the actual proof that supports that conclusion? 

Just because an easy game is popular does not mean that same game with a deeper skill gap would be less popular. Would Halo 2 have been less popular if it maintained the skill gap of CE? I doubt it. I'm firmly of the belief that it would have been even more popular (given that it's popularity stemmed largely from the success of Halo CE). 

 

  • Like (+1) 6

Share this post


Link to post
58 minutes ago, BigShow36 said:

The second level of defense is having a well-balanced sandbox that works in conjunction with the utility weapon, and clearly differentiates the relative power of each weapon. 

With a very quick killing utility weapon, how much room is left in the sandbox?  How many weapons should surround a very quick killing utility?  Rocks, snipe, shotty, sword, grenade launcher?  What else?  

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Boyo said:

With a very quick killing utility weapon, how much room is left in the sandbox?  How many weapons should surround a very quick killing utility?  Rocks, snipe, shotty, sword, grenade launcher?  What else?  

Do we need anything else? 

If we need more guns solely for casual appeal, make human, covenant, brute, and promethean variations of each utility & power weapon. 

Palette swaps ftw.

Share this post


Link to post
22 hours ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

Wasn't there the quick-reload glitch for the Boltshot too?

Edit: Wow, this is a throwback and a half.

WOW h4 is secretly the best halo game ever?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Aphex Twin said:

Do we need anything else? 

If we need more guns solely for casual appeal, make human, covenant, brute, and promethean variations of each utility & power weapon. 

Palette swaps ftw.

343 will remember that.

Share this post


Link to post
32 minutes ago, Jake Teh Nub said:

Imagine if Halo Infinite ended up not getting delayed and was Cyberpunk-tier broken

I’ve heard it’s pretty bad on old gen 

Share this post


Link to post

Would you guys like to see bullet drop in halo? This be a perfect way to create a sandbox similar to apex legends and have a fast TTK. The weapons in apex for the most part go straight there’s little to no bloom and recoil isn’t that high either. I think infinite should go this route that way weapons don’t feel weak. Competitive players like us want a strong utility and that means a perfect TTK of something.6- 1 second TTK. We want the the utility also to have no randomness to ensure our aims rewarded. Bullet drop and high strafing that actually makes people miss is the way to go. People miss shots in apex because of the great strafing and that’s how I hope halo infinite is like.

j wish people weren’t against recoil in halo as that’s a way to make strong autos without them being op. I know how some here’s opinions on recoil but it’s a useful  balancing tool that does its job. 

  • Like (+1) 3
  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Jake Teh Nub said:

Imagine if Halo Infinite ended up not getting delayed and was Cyberpunk-tier broken

Considering 343's track record the route Cyberpunk took, it's far easier for me to imagine that Halo Infinite ends up Cyberpunk-tier broken despite the delay.

  • Like (+1) 5

Share this post


Link to post

Bullet drop would be way too intrusive in regular close-mid range gunfights, tune it for ranges where people are in the last 5-10 meters of RRR while scoped in. This would hopefully reduce the amount of crossmapping that comes with a single shot utility weapon.

I don't think every auto should unconditionally have vertical recoil, but there's definitely a few weapons that vertical recoil would be an effective tool to balance and craft a niche. 

If dual-wielding were to return, then it should definitely have strong non-resetting vertical recoil.

_

Time to discuss the stuff that we're actually gonna get and that no one really wants to be reminded about. 

Positives:

1) Razor-sharp strafe. I rewatched the demo a couple of times, and I really have to give 342i credit for this. This is the sharpest strafe in a Halo game yet. The sharpest strafe prior was the H2 strafe, and this is even sharper than that. 

2) The sprint-slide transition is nearly instantaneous. In H5 you have to wait a 2 second period or something like that before being able to slide. 

3) The cooldown on the hook is roughly 7 seconds. Not exactly a "positive", but could have been much worse. 

 

Negatives:

1) Extremely irritating visual bloom. I don't think the bloom is reminiscent of Reach, I think it's more of a visual indication of a semi-auto weapon's firing cooldown. Regardless, it's still fucking annoying. 

2) Hexagons. 

3) The base FOV looked like something in the mid-to-low 80s. Possibly gonna be what the XB1 is locked at. 

4) The guns still look like they're hitscan and have H5 amounts of bullet magnetism to them.   Particularly observable on the AR. 

5) The fucking commando. It's an automatic precision rifle. I don't even need to say anything else. 

6) The AR still looks too strong at mid-range. 

7) The Carbine replacement has spread. 

8) Jump height looks very slightly gimped. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Aphex Twin said:

Do we need anything else? 

If we need more guns solely for casual appeal, make human, covenant, brute, and promethean variations of each utility & power weapon. 

Palette swaps ftw.

I'll go to my grave advocating for this:

  • "Loadouts", where your options are:
    • Utility Weapon (one for each "race" [hell, maybe even more than one]; each is functionally identical, but has "muh fun sounds and graphics").
    • Secondary Auto (again, one for each "race"; each is functionally identical; shitty as hell outside of five feet, but good in a close-quarters panic/to finish off an unshielded player).

I'd make the ammo for those weapons functionally interchangeable, which would allow you to scavenge off dead bodies. I'd never spawn these loadout weapons on the map (if necessary, maybe throw down the generic starting options if you need to switch for whatever reason). Boom—you've appeased the fans who want "weapon variety" without tossing a billion pointless weapons on the map or disrupting the sandbox.

And no one give me the "fans are not that naive—they'd catch on" bullshit. No one would care at all. People only get upset in load-out based shooters when one weapon dominates them all. By making them all functionally identical, you avoid this problem and provide Xx_M4st3rCh1ef_xX with more dress-up options.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

@_Synapse sorry but how on earth are you judging the strafe from a low-level campaign demo? Not saying you're wrong, but people did the same during the initial H4 MP reveal and were hilariously wrong. 

  • Like (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, _Synapse said:

1) Extremely irritating visual bloom. I don't think the bloom is reminiscent of Reach, I think it's more of a visual indication of a semi-auto weapon's firing cooldown. Regardless, it's still fucking annoying. 

2) Hexagons. 

3) The base FOV looked like something in the mid-to-low 80s. Possibly gonna be what the XB1 is locked at. 

4) The guns still look like they're hitscan and have H5 amounts of bullet magnetism to them.   Particularly observable on the AR. 

5) The fucking commando. It's an automatic precision rifle. I don't even need to say anything else. 

6) The AR still looks too strong at mid-range. 

7) The Carbine replacement has spread. 

8) Jump height looks very slightly gimped. 

 

It’s hRd to say if that carbine replacement had spread to me. But it is possible.

jump height looked fine but it’s hard to judge from a campaign demo

thsy probably are hitscan. So far every 343 halo is hitscan with high bullet mag. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

Xx_M4st3rCh1ef_xX

It’s always funny how majority of people who are terrible at games have usernames like this.

Share this post


Link to post

There are three weapons that are somewhat separate from the sandbox.  Because they are spawn weapons, they are more like base traits, inherent abilities that players possess.  

The Magnum is the competitive utility weapon.  The Battle Rifle is the social utility weapon.  The Assault Carbine is the social secondary weapon.  All other weapons are picks ups.  This allows them to be designed and balanced differently because every player isn’t running around with them all game.  

Power weapons like sniper and rockets can be challenged by the quick-killing Magnum.  Arena maps typically only rely on a few top tier weapon/power-up pick ups anyway so the middle of the sandbox is largely ignored.  

 

The BR kills slower than the Magnum but the burst fire weapon is more reliable, easier to use effectively.  The longer kill time on the social utility weapon creates room for mid tier weapon pick ups to be situational upgrades to the BR, weapons that excel in specific niche circumstances.  

On larger maps with higher player counts especially, you can’t put a top tier power weapon on every route you want to incentivize movement along.  Mid tier weapons, paired with a slower killing spawn weapon, create a different style of gameplay than arena, which is straight utility or utility+power weapon for the most part.  Funky little one-off weapons that can be used in unique and creative ways are the soul of the sandbox.  That’s where your quirks and acute angles are, where the sandbox shows its personality.  

 

A quick-killing utility and top tier power weapons are more of a requirement for Halo’s Arena gameplay, it won’t function correctly without them.  A range of mid tier weapons that inspire awe while legitimately providing tight yet piercing advantages is the bread and butter of the larger player count social experience.  Everyone holds onto the reliable BR while many individuals simultaneously carry a unique secondary weapon, adding to the chaos that more players and vehicles naturally brings.  

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.