Jump to content
CyReN

Halo Infinite Discussion

Recommended Posts

40 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

I really don’t understand h5 aiming. I for the death of me can’t find anything consistent or smooth. 

Have you tried pre-ordering Halo Wars 2?

  • Fire (+1) 1
  • Toxic (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

Have you tried pre-ordering Halo Wars 2?

I have, and it made it worse 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Honestly the BR and everything else is such utte garbage compared to the pistol in h5. Like isn’t anything that’s not the pistol is a death sentence 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/11/2020 at 1:13 PM, Warlord Wossman said:

That's actually a weak argument, dynamic timers allow for lining up items as well, it's just harder to get the information and people have to be more aware of timing items, Quake rather easily shows this is doable but I think Halo players usually think of dynamic timers as being "unfair" because they are used to spawn with the strongest & most versatile gun in the game that usually aims a decent amount by itself and if the enemy could have an item that the enemy team timed but your team didn't they get salty because over the years the teamshot meta has been so dominant that nobody expects power weapons / power ups to be able to shift games by a lot.
Static timers remove a layer of depth from map control and the way Halo pros see it seems to suggest that they think teamshot is what should win them items so static timers are just more convenient because you can play almost exactly as braindead as if there was no item spawning.

Ice, is that you?

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Simms (+1) 1
  • Fire (+1) 1
  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/12/2020 at 1:43 AM, MultiLockOn said:

The correct answer here is probably to purpose build the decisions like you would anything else. There's probably cool scenarios for several dynamic pickups, and others where you'd want them static. This can fluctuate based on player count, map, game mode.

I think a cool idea would be to have an "oscillating" timer for certain pickups that would change depending on in-game circumstances. It would prevent every single power item fight/rotation from reading off of the same script and force players to choose between certain map objectives.

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

A map could simultaneously spawn multiple items and when one of them is picked up, the rest disappear.  

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Boyo said:

A map could simultaneously spawn multiple items and when one of them is picked up, the rest disappear.  

I don't like this idea. Assuming map resources have varying degrees of utility(camo, sniper), a battle over winning a resource becomes nulled if the team of the loser can sit on another item to despawn the one they contested and lost. Imagine winning the race to rockets only for them to despawn because the other team picked up custom. 

 

Perhaps certain resources are not available on game spawn, and are spawned in after an interval? And depending on the pickup, determines the weapon spawns throughout the rest of the match.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Boyo said:

A map could simultaneously spawn multiple items and when one of them is picked up, the rest disappear.  

This fucks over someone who exposes themselves for the item on the opposite side of the map but doesn't get there fast enough and the item despawns under them.

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Obnokshus said:

Perhaps certain resources are not available on game spawn, and are spawned in after an interval? And depending on the pickup, determines the weapon spawns throughout the rest of the match.

So like Baron / Dragon spawns in League of Legends?  They're important neutral objectives (that also give direct power to your team, like power weapons), but don't spawn until much later in the game...and in certain circumstances, they become catalysts for a team that's ahead, but not dominating, to have the strength to push to win.

Dragons for the past few seasons in LoL have also had an element tied to them, and with the current season, the third element chosen affects the entire map, changing minor terrain and affecting what "plants" spawn.

 

As an unrelated tangent:

Personally, I think games need to do a better job educating the player base on the concepts of Strong Side / Weak Side.  While it's something you -sort of- pick up intuitively, I've encountered too many people who don't grasp it at all and just assume the answer is always "Fight now, fight fight fight."

But if your team is split 3-1, with you as the 1, and the enemy team is split 2-2, your job is not to fight.  Your job is to live and stall.  Assuming equal weapons, your 3 teammates are pushing strong side and have a good chance of making a push for whatever the objective is -- you just have to ensure that the 2 pushing you do not just kill you and get a free path to do what they want.  Some players are smart enough to figure this out, but there's never really a situation where the game itself teaches you, either through its objectives or even through just the gameplay itself, helping you realize whether your team's in decent standing in an area or not.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I think a cool idea would be to have an "oscillating" timer for certain pickups that would change depending on in-game circumstances. It would prevent every single power item fight/rotation from reading off of the same script and force players to choose between certain map objectives.

I heard the exact same thing come out of Quinn Del Hoyos mouth! Great minds.

  • Toxic (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

@Obnokshus @TiberiusAudley  You make good points.  I guess I was picturing a map designed with this concept in mind.  Like, a player going for one of the pick ups would somehow have sight lines on the other two so it wouldn’t be a surprise to him when one got picked up.  
 

What do you think about an item that teleports the user to a different location upon pick up?  

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/11/2020 at 10:29 PM, Cursed Lemon said:

They're unfair because unless you were the one who picked up the item last, not only do you have no idea when it's going to spawn, you have no idea when the other team actually drops the weapon and causes the timer to start. How are you supposed to coordinate a push when the other team is the only one who has that information?

Nothing I said implies the timer starts when you drop a weapon, that's a specific setting I would be against tbf.
Even if it's you picking up the item starting the timer it's not necessarily unfair I would say, it's a benefit from picking up the item in form of map control. If you wanted to get deeper into that you could argue initial spawns on asymmetrical maps could make this behavior unfair which I could see but in just about every arena shooter this slight imbalance from the initial spawns is largely overshadowed by the rest of the skillgap.

As for how are you supposed to coordinate a push: Just like you would otherwise, you don't have to know every variable to make a push, for example the exact locations of each enemy player are also not something you know and you can still push.
Sure at the end of the day it's subjective which way you would like items to behave but I feel like a lot of people apply double standards for their reasonings of calling dynamic items unfair because they wouldn't call other parts of the game unfair that would have to be called that using their own criteria.

On 10/12/2020 at 1:04 AM, Reamis25 said:

The problem with asymmetrical maps lies in the average positioning and yes to a great degree spawning. Look at the CE maps and most people will say the spawns are bs on those maps, the power positions are too powerful, etc. you need to make it so there’s no true power position. That I can attack, see etc through at least 2-5 angles. On damnation there’s only two ways to get up top and that makes it far too easy to predict where I’ll come from. Reach version with the lifts helps this problem but it’s not enough to fix the problem most have with assym maps

Doesn't really sound like you know what you are talking about, power positions are more tied to geometry than the symmetry conditions of a map, the only relation would be that symmetrical maps have to place unique power positions somewhere on the axis or point of symmetry.
The point you bring up with always being able to push and see through 2-5 angles is much more of a map geometry point too.

On 10/12/2020 at 4:10 AM, _Synapse said:

The CE version has built-in anti-camping measures. Namely, everything minus camo spawning on the bottom. 

The Reach version just sucks. Mostly because it's attached to Reach gameplay. 

 

Dynamic timers are good for 1v1 and 2v2 gamemodes because there's more predictability and because the pace of the game is slower and more strategic.

You could still have one in 4v4, but it wouldn't be half as predictable as in the other playercounts. At that point, the concession of the item to the opposing team + not being able to reliably challenge the next item, has a snowballing effect. The major underlying issue is that power weapons in Halo have different "relative lethality" than items in Quake. Halo's more "Either bait this item or pick it up first and blow the enemy up with it" and less "Suffocate the enemy by not letting him get to a single health/armor pickup whilst chipping away at his stack". 

Well first I would bring up that arena shooters with faster pacing have people time items really well, even in teammodes (there are no coaches who time stuff externally either). Technically the predictability doesn't have to go down with higher player count but communication is def some sort of bottleneck I guess, a skillgap if you would want to make that point even.
The argument about relative lethality compared to Quake would make sense if you are speaking from a duel perspective, but Quake TDM has traditionally been played with weapons on 30 second timers, and on some maps even with railgun on 60 seconds, so no it's not really just health and armor in Quake even if duel being one of the most popular modes has many people believe so. In all fairness I didn't expect people to know that tho.

On 10/12/2020 at 7:43 AM, MultiLockOn said:

The correct answer here is probably to purpose build the decisions like you would anything else. There's probably cool scenarios for several dynamic pickups, and others where you'd want them static. This can fluctuate based on player count, map, game mode.  Obviously this isn't as streamlined as most devs would like to be and can take a little more learning but. If you want the best possible experience you can have, you've gotta tune everything for everything. I like dynamic and static. Usually dynamic is cool for 2s / 1s, static for 4s. But it doesn't have to be. Powerups in h5 were dynamic but I enjoyed in 2v2 the opening rush on Empire because camo was on one side of the map and OS the other, so you got to do a bit of choosing there. That was fun the first several spawn cycles because they usually respawned very close to each other in time as if they were static. Lead to cool choices.

I think we should start with making the powerups in Halo not one dimensional and broken as hell though. There's nothing fun about getting an extra shield, or fighting against it. Just like picking up a constantly broken power weapon is stupid as well. Ideally powerups would give you the opportunity to be skillful in a new way without just handing it to you. 

I am with you on the first paragraph, as I said I might enjoy dynamic which is a subjective taste but ultimately I like arguing people who use inconsistent logic to jump to conclusions, usually getting backed up by everyone here because Halo has mostly had static timers as "the competitive version".
There is def room for both, and depending how you want your game to play you can go with either but I agree that it's mostly preference and not one of the 2 being objectively more suited for competitive.
But yeah as for opinions I also really like how dynamic can change decision making over the course of the game and teams have to make up their mind according to the information they have, I feel like that can easily create an extra layer of depth (esp for comebacks) compared to every item cycle being exactly the same and once you have seen a single one you know them all.

9 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I think a cool idea would be to have an "oscillating" timer for certain pickups that would change depending on in-game circumstances. It would prevent every single power item fight/rotation from reading off of the same script and force players to choose between certain map objectives.

Well yeah, almost like static timers make for really static decision making.

9 hours ago, Hard Way said:

Ice, is that you?

Afaik IcePrincess was one of the people really pushing the logically flawed fairness idea and only having static timers (better yet no items at all because it would be unfair if one team had a powerweapon and the other wouldn't am I right?) and I think she only wanted a single symmetrical map - so yeah no idea what your comment was trying to tell me.

Anyways for a TL:DR I would say that I cannot see how not knowing timing for dynamic weapons would be unfair, people had to pick them up from the map to get the timing (talking about timers starting on pick up), the same logic seems to be fine with Halo players when only the person who picks up the rocket launcher gets a rocket launcher, speaking strictly logically I cannot see how one of the two would be fair and the other wouldn't.
Does this mean I am saying one is better than the other? Not really, as @MultiLockOn highlighted too I think we should think more generally about how both ways impact gameplay and what sort of dynamic and flow the game wants to achieve when played.
But yeah tired of "it's always been like that so I don't want to use my brain to question it" - I get it - everyone has a personal preference, and should also be bringing that up since this forum is about exchanging/discussing opinions, but don't try to make your points sound like objective facts if you cannot back them up with data.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

Personally, I think games need to do a better job educating the player base on the concepts of Strong Side / Weak Side.  While it's something you -sort of- pick up intuitively, I've encountered too many people who don't grasp it at all and just assume the answer is always "Fight now, fight fight fight."

But if your team is split 3-1, with you as the 1, and the enemy team is split 2-2, your job is not to fight.  Your job is to live and stall.  Assuming equal weapons, your 3 teammates are pushing strong side and have a good chance of making a push for whatever the objective is -- you just have to ensure that the 2 pushing you do not just kill you and get a free path to do what they want.  Some players are smart enough to figure this out, but there's never really a situation where the game itself teaches you, either through its objectives or even through just the gameplay itself, helping you realize whether your team's in decent standing in an area or not.

What if 343 had the pro team (or T2 :simms:) make short strategy videos like this and put them in the game for new players? They could do things like basic CTF strategy, map setups, blocking spawns, etc. and explain why these things work and then show an example from a tournament or something.

How many times have you had teammates on Midship flag just charge into the base solo and throw the flag out window as they die and genuinely think that's a good play because they're trying to play the objective? I've had friends do this that aren't even bad at the game, they just play casually and have never really stopped to think about actual strategy and how slowing down to get a few slays to set up a real run would be better.

I can't seem to find it right now, but they made a great one not too long ago with Shyway breaking down Ryanoob's killpocalypse in H2A showing the team's setup and everything that made it possible.

While these things are obvious to most people here, I think it could go a long way in making ranked/competitive more approachable and maybe get people excited about it (both playing and watching) if they feel more like they know what they're doing. 

  • Like (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post

Speaking as somebody who only got into sweaty Halo recently, it isn't easy to get into. 

I'll be blunt: most "How 2 Win at MLG" strategy vids are terrible. They don't explain any of the key underlying mechanics in Halo, they usually don't give away useful map information, and they explain their decisions in a very haphazard way.

A guy will rationalize his decision to push a place "because camo's about to spawn", and he'll rationalize his next push with "The guy I killed should spawn bottom blue". Thing is, this doesn't explain any of the decision making process to a viewer, it doesn't tell them what factors are crucial in the midst of a game. If anything, it just confuses them more and/or flat out alienates them. 

That's why you get players like UberNick, who have brilliant mechanical skill but zero-to-little competitive map knowledge. 

 

A basic tutorial for casual players should cover:

• Prerequisite knowledge (settings, spawn timers, certain jumps, callouts, spawn system and spawn locations on maps).

• Map specific-power positions and angle control.

• Explanations of teamshot and when to/not to push (with regards to team coordination and dead teammates/enemies).

• How to give teammates good spawns and force enemies into bad spawns. 

• How to play CTF, KOTH, Ball and Assault. 

 

Intermediate tutorials can cover stuff like starting strats on maps, 4v4 and 2v2 team rotations, enemy movement prediction, mode and map control-contingent setups, how to break setups, etc. 

The beginner tutorial wouldn't even be that long, maybe like 20 minutes at the absolute maximum. 

  • Like (+1) 2
  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

It’s so unfair how 343 is using old school methods of game advertisement with infinite. They told halo follower that they’ll show shit when they’re ready(although not specifically but this is the summary of the message and that infuriates me) how long 343 must you stay in your shell and hide?you delayed infinite to 2021 when deep down only the campaign needed a delay and even phill thought releasing multiplayer then story would of been fine but, and honestly it would have because let’s face it the majority play halo for multiplayer & anyone who says no is full of shit. Look at the games that are top liners for streaming, all multiplayer centric games. 

Share this post


Link to post

I think Halo could experiment a lot more with its spawn system in some interesting ways. Being able to rotate your camera after you die and cycle through your teammates is an underrated feature as it is. What about being able to choose your spawn point or have a minimum respawn time as well as a maximum. 

There are lot of small changes you could make that could have extremely impactful consequences. For instance, being able to choose an unblocked spawn at will could/probably would completely change the Meta, but it could be interesting. The mind games and strategy involved could be fun to see/play. 

Upon death you would be able to use up and down on your D-pad to cycle teammates and look around as usual. Left and right on the D-pad allows you to cycle between the spawn points in their area. Spawn points can be blocked and you could use a system that is similar the CE that would probably be quite effective. 

Minimum spawns in 3 seconds and maybe maximum spawn of 10 or something like that. A player who doesn't choose a spawn or opts into it can also get a "random" in the usual fashion. 

  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Afaik IcePrincess was one of the people really pushing the logically flawed fairness idea and only having static timers (better yet no items at all because it would be unfair if one team had a powerweapon and the other wouldn't am I right?) and I think she only wanted a single symmetrical map - so yeah no idea what your comment was trying to tell me.
 

I think he meant it the other way around that's at least how I interpreted it. Ice = the halo players that think Halo should only be your starting gun because pickups are "broken", and not  actually "you" = iceprincess.

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Nothing I said implies the timer starts when you drop a weapon, that's a specific setting I would be against tbf.
Even if it's you picking up the item starting the timer it's not necessarily unfair I would say, it's a benefit from picking up the item in form of map control. If you wanted to get deeper into that you could argue initial spawns on asymmetrical maps could make this behavior unfair which I could see but in just about every arena shooter this slight imbalance from the initial spawns is largely overshadowed by the rest of the skillgap.

As for how are you supposed to coordinate a push: Just like you would otherwise, you don't have to know every variable to make a push, for example the exact locations of each enemy player are also not something you know and you can still push.
Sure at the end of the day it's subjective which way you would like items to behave but I feel like a lot of people apply double standards for their reasonings of calling dynamic items unfair because they wouldn't call other parts of the game unfair that would have to be called that using their own criteria.

Every other arena shooter is a 1v1-focused game. The power items are nowhere near as important in isolation because there are many more of them around the map and you have far easier access to all of them, both in lack of contest and in pure speed. Trying to apply that context to Halo is erroneous, the power items are of much greater consequence and not knowing when they're going to spawn is a meaningful disadvantage (mind you, I'm speaking in the context of a Halo game that isn't horribly imbalanced already). It's exactly the same thing as trying to play CE against someone with a timer when you don't have one. "The skill gap will overcome that", yeah maybe if I'm playing against McDick and Legend.

Regardless, we should be moving away from the concept of one team having information that the other doesn't (about neutral items), not toward it.

  • Like (+1) 3
  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, NAK said:

I think Halo could experiment a lot more with its spawn system in some interesting ways. Being able to rotate your camera after you die and cycle through your teammates is an underrated feature as it is. What about being able to choose your spawn point or have a minimum respawn time as well as a maximum. 

Shouldn’t be rewarding for dying.  
 

7 hours ago, NAK said:

Minimum spawns in 3 seconds and maybe maximum spawn of 10 or something like that. A player who doesn't choose a spawn or opts into it can also get a "random" in the usual fashion. 

Shouldn’t be able to delay your respawn.  
 

Maybe a pick up that allows teammates to buddy spawn on you.  

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, _Synapse said:

 

A basic tutorial for casual players should cover:

• Prerequisite knowledge (settings, spawn timers, certain jumps, callouts, spawn system and spawn locations on maps).

• Map specific-power positions and angle control.

• Explanations of teamshot and when to/not to push (with regards to team coordination and dead teammates/enemies).

• How to give teammates good spawns and force enemies into bad spawns. 

• How to play CTF, KOTH, Ball and Assault. 

 

Intermediate tutorials can cover stuff like starting strats on maps, 4v4 and 2v2 team rotations, enemy movement prediction, mode and map control-contingent setups, how to break setups, etc. 

The biggest failing in competitive Halo is that our casters/color commentators never talk about the most important factor: Spacing.

People talk about teamshot plenty, but don't address that it's important to be covering multiple angles in order to do it.

People talk about power positions, but rarely address that it's important to also have players closing open lanes to avoid giving free movement to your opponents.

People focus on kills and forcing spawns and everything about the enemy's position and don't focus on what is equally important: the position of everyone on your team.

 

A knight putting the king in check means absolutely nothing if a pawn can just take the knight and none of your pieces can punish.

 

  • Like (+1) 2
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, TiberiusAudley said:

Spacing

They do mention “setups” which is the same thing.  

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Boyo said:

They do mention “setups” which is the same thing.  

It's really not, because it doesn't explain anything.  They just use the word "setups" and call it good.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

It's really not, because it doesn't explain anything.  They just use the word "setups" and call it good.

It actually is kind of weird because I know at least for me personally I notice and think about spacing while I'm playing so it seems like it would naturally be something to speak about when casting. I've talked to other people though and they don't internally think of the term spacing they just sort of feel it out. Rather than recognizing needing more spacing or less based on their team they instead just sort of feel uncomfortable and move because of that without really having words to describe it. Generally I think most Halo players, especially professional ones, are very familiar with the concept but they might not have a good or universal way of verbalizing it

I think a lot of the instinctual stuff Halo players develop over time doesn't get talked about by the people casting or by people trying to commentate gameplay or tutorials on youtube

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

So Sean W posted a video of possible leaked gameplay for November 9th. It’s not gonna be multiplayer it’s gonna be an improved version of the July reveal with some extra scenes or something according to the leak and a possible spring 21 release date. These were posted on reddit and 4chan and they’re only test based so take em with a grain of salt. If true this is good news. 

Share this post


Link to post

Dear god, I DESPISE  the self-styled pro-SBMM crowd. 

"Oh? You don't want to be sweating for your life, game after game, in unranked modes? Lol u just want ez pubstomp i'm very intelligent" 

The amount of mental and physical effort expended by two zero-skill teams and two top-skilled teams, in a competitive game against each other, is NOT EQUAL. Even at a moderately high level, playing equally skilled opponents requires a lot of effort. It's not like when Timmy and Jimmy's teams match each other and fuck around in ghosts while using detached turrets.

When you have to expend that effort, game after game after game after fucking game -  in a mode that's meant to be social, it becomes extremely exhausting to play, extremely quickly. 

 

Removing SBMM wouldn't even fucking hurt the lower skilled players. Sure, they're matching more skilled players on average, but they have a ranked mode that they can play in if they find themselves matching gods in social modes. Even then, players who are so outrageously skilled that they ruin the game for everybody else -  comprise less than 3% of a game's population. 

Most people supporting SBMM either:

1) Have an average playtime of two hours per week. 

2) Are too mediocre to match sweaty opponents.

 

Yes I know this is a dead horse but this argument keeps getting revived on Twitter and the usual braindead replies keep pouring out of the sewer grates

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.