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Halo Infinite Discussion

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I think people are really missing the point about the recoil pattern and aim assist. If its obvious and controllable like the CS example that means you're aiming down and off of player's models without aim assist on a controller. You're going to brick an insane amount of shots even if you're really good. That isn't even getting into how weird it would feel dragging your aim out of the aim assist radius and having two different sensitivities because of that while on a controller. It works for CS because of the input device as much as because of its kill times. You would have to significantly dumb it down for console play otherwise people would literally fail to kill in perfect shots on people who were afk most of the time. I've played CS and can spray an AK lol that isn't going to work on controllers without a lot of work
 

Watch how he actually moves to control it. It would be hard if it were just vertical but side to side too is just not happening in Halo unless we're fully playing on PC. Even then honestly you'd need to tone it down because instead of posting up on something and maybe hopping around a corner people are fully strafing and running everywhere in Halo on top of the bullets to actually kill someone being significantly higher. If you just straight up copied this people would just be immortal. These are mechanics you introduce into games where the players themselves aren't really hard targets to hit on their own

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What about a linear 90-degree vertical recoil? This obviously removes any possibility of a headshot multiplier for obvious reasons, but it still maintains a semblance of mechanical aim that needs to go into landing shots with an auto. 

@Snipe Three I mean, aren't most autos in Halo pretty easy to hit opponents with? 

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4 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I think people are really missing the point about the recoil pattern and aim assist. If its obvious and controllable like the CS example that means you're aiming down and off of player's models without aim assist on a controller. You're going to brick an insane amount of shots even if you're really good. That isn't even getting into how weird it would feel dragging your aim out of the aim assist radius and having two different sensitivities because of that while on a controller. It works for CS because of the input device as much as because of its kill times. You would have to significantly dumb it down for console play otherwise people would literally fail to kill in perfect shots on people who were afk most of the time. I've played CS and can spray an AK lol that isn't going to work on controllers without a lot of work
 

Watch how he actually moves to control it. It would be hard if it were just vertical but side to side too is just not happening in Halo unless we're fully playing on PC. Even then honestly you'd need to tone it down because instead of posting up on something and maybe hopping around a corner people are fully strafing and running everywhere in Halo on top of the bullets to actually kill someone being significantly higher. If you just straight up copied this people would just be immortal. These are mechanics you introduce into games where the players themselves aren't really hard targets to hit on their own

you're not aiming off player models though, unless you're super far away it's usually from head down to thigh level. and even then auto aim has a range that gets triggered WELL before the player even hits the crosshair. So even if you are far enough away where the crosshair is off them, chances are auto aim will be kicking in anyway to assist

 we lead shots in halo 3 like this before the new reg update all the time. This still would have auto aim helping. I'm not saying the recoil has to be exactly like CSGO's "7" but any recoil is better than the current meta for autos. Running and just holding the fire button. I'd rather it behave like a DMR in reach. Spam upclose (but with skill) and pump at range.

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The problem with Halo autos doesn't even need a complex solution. They're just bullet hoses with next to no accuracy or range usually and a lot of aim assist. They haven't even tried honestly. You could just make one accurate with less aim assist and you'd solve the majority of the problems right there. We were talking about this at some point in the past and brought up a lot of things like rate of fire or maybe just not having a zoom function on them to compensate for the ease of keeping someone descoped with an accurate auto which imo is the largest area that needs actual gameplay testing to feel out. It would be pretty rough if it was equally hard to shoot when compared to a traditional primary weapon but you'd just dominate a descope battle due to how many bullets you're letting off. It needs some kind of downside there

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So taco bell just recently came out with an AD that was a halo infinite theme thing where dude becomes chief and uses the grapple hook. You know I’m really thinking spring is the release. No way they’re doing ads this far back as a full year delay or even summer. 
343 going to make millions by selling that doom guy armor set up for 10-20$ I’m calling it now 

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I'm gonna be real fuckin' blunt; autos don't need a skillgap shoehorned into them like recoil patterns, because they are not an important aspect of Halo skill we need to build off of. The utility weapon is the central focus of skill, while autos simply need to perform another aspect of the games utilitarian sandbox that the utility lacks.

I'd go as far as giving them burst fire accuracy, or no recoil/spread at all in terms of shooting skill, but nothing more.

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2 hours ago, The Tyco said:

I'm gonna be real fuckin' blunt; autos don't need a skillgap shoehorned into them like recoil patterns, because they are not an important aspect of Halo skill we need to build off of. The utility weapon is the central focus of skill, while autos simply need to perform another aspect of the games utilitarian sandbox that the utility lacks.

I'd go as far as giving them burst fire accuracy, or no recoil/spread at all in terms of shooting skill, but nothing more.

We’re just trying to make the autos strong but not be piss easy 

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36 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

We’re just trying to make the autos strong but not be piss easy 

were just bored

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17 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

I fail to see how this is a bad thing. 
it’s literally making it so you need to do more than just aim and click. 

I tried to explain, it makes the game less accessible and adds no depth. It's shoddy design.

Why shouldn't it just be aim and click? We want as many new players as possible. Why add a mechanic that fucks with the aim of players who dont play every day, and effectively dissappears with practice? Because pulling down is "skill"? It's literally the same as countering stick drift on a worn controller. I don't value that kind of skill at all. And when you put it in your game you devalue all other skills because being able to pull down can compensate for terrible positioning, as it can in Battlefield. 

I played Battlefield a lot before, recoil is a skill you master completely unconsciously. 

17 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

Ok but the point here is the topic of autos. The player base doesn’t want to always have to use precision weapons, so they want an AR that does good damage and competes good against precision weapons. But the problem is the ARS are so ridiculously easy to use them having high damage outputs is ridiculous and something needs to be done. Recoil like battlefield or something like that would work greatly to justify strong autos in halos sandbox. 

You misunderstood, "precision aim" as in fine aim, not precision weapon aim.

I was talking about how precision aim (detached from all the interesting components of aim like target prioritization, leading, crosshair placement) is enough of a barrier already. 

I get where you are coming from though:) The AR is pretty lame, but there are ways of making autos more interesting, recoil is not one. Unless you think pulling down is a cool and fun thing to get good at of course. And I guess most of the FPS community have been conditioned to think that, because most FPSs with a recoil/aim based skillgap are typically shallow in other areas.

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@potetr Recoil can be used as a range limiter.  For example, I would make the Plasma Repeater perfectly accurate, no spread, bloom, or recoil but I would give the Spiker vertical recoil and projectile drop over distance, intended to limit its effective range.  

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@Boyo It can, if it's uncontrollable (random). I would have no problem with that. Controllable recoil will just be compensated for. 

Look at how this guy beams down someone at range with a close range bullet-hose AR. This gun has pretty hefty recoil, with an inital jump, but his crosshair barely moves. You have to account for people like this.

 

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@potetr Is it not clear that he is using some sort of computer assisted aiming or am I just out of touch?  That looks like an aimbot to to me.  

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@Boyo He's legit. He is well known in the Battlefield community. He's just got insane awareness, target prioritization (the BF4 minimap gives a lot of info) and aim.

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2 hours ago, potetr said:

recoil/aim based skillgap are typically shallow in other areas.

I disagree with this because it does create a skill gap difference between good and bad and that’s important and why it’s a mechanic added. Its not like there isn’t already recoil in autos in halo as the SMG is that 

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Would lowering the projectile velocity on the AR be a suitable alternative? 

CE's pistol had a projectile velocity of 210 world units per second. 

Assuming a Halo game with a much harder strafe to target (higher movement speed and strafe acceleration) and no magnetism, I think 230 world units per second is a reasonable amount so as to not make the utility weapon into an average 9SK. 

From that, I think an AR should sit in the 190-200 world units per second range. It's still an effective weapon in CQC, but it requires a little more leading than the utility rifle.

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The AEK really doesn't have a ton of kick especially with the right attachment combo. It also doesn't really make sense to compare Halo's weapons to a 900 RPM auto that kills in 4-5 body shots.

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32 minutes ago, Knighty Knight said:

That guys reticule doesnt BUDGE. Wow. I'd be shocked if he didnt have some type of hack

Yeah I can't decide if hes holding down a key for that somehow or if I really just can't see him pulling the mouse down since in a lot of those clips you can see the mouse hand. Maybe I just haven't played BF in long enough 

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The amount of external features you need to make aiming difficult is totally dependent on (i) kill time and (ii) movement speed. CS needs recoil because the minimum kill time is quite literally instantaneous. Add in the slow movement speed, and the absence of a recoil pattern makes the game a pure positional contest—it's just see-first, kill-first. I'm pretty sure WarOwl made a video playing CS without recoil and it was an utter disaster.

Conversely, a game like Quake does not need recoil. Kill times are long and movement speed is fast. There are already a ton variables that naturally make aiming difficult that the addition of a recoil pattern is simply unnecessary.

Halo falls somewhere in the middle of CS and Quake, though closer to the Quake side of the spectrum. Kill times are long and movement speed is moderately fast, but far slower than Quake's. Thus, it makes sense to add some additional factors to the game to increase the skill required to aim. Requiring players to lead shots seems like a happy medium—the "dance-like" gun battles in Halo simply are not conducive to a CS-style recoil pattern. Maybe you compromise and go with a straight up-down pattern? But the automatics in Halo really are not meant to be viable outside close range, so I don't think this is a good solution. I think the bloom mechanic works best if we're looking to give automatics some viability at range, as it allows them to at least de-scope/clean up unshielded targets further away without allowing the guns to encroach on the mid-range niche of the precision rifles.  

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10 hours ago, potetr said:

@Boyo It can, if it's uncontrollable (random). I would have no problem with that. Controllable recoil will just be compensated for. 

Look at how this guy beams down someone at range with a close range bullet-hose AR. This gun has pretty hefty recoil, with an inital jump, but his crosshair barely moves. You have to account for people like this.

 

MAN I JUST WANT A MODERN BF

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You know we have competitive players, especially people here who bitch that the AR is better the precision weapon in close range. 

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That br bothers me. The scope is giant and pic rails don't compliment the traditional look at all. In fact, the weapon art design seems to be all over the place in general.

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