Halo Infinite Discussion

[MultiLockOn]

1 hour ago, _Synapse said:

I still like ShyWay but that guy misses the whole point of every single anti-advanced mobility argument. 

I think every single person who still advocates sprint in 2020 should watch this video by @MultiLockOn and @Cursed Lemon

 

He has really bad reasoning in all of his videos. Just sit tight for my sprint one. 

[TeeJaY]

42 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

He has really bad reasoning in all of his videos. Just sit tight for my sprint one. 

Will you just be talking over gameplay or is there gonna be some sweet sexy visuals?

[Turkeyyy Lips]

https://www.ign.com/articles/halo-infinite-delay-outsourcing-tv-show-distraction-xbox-series-x

 

A little insight as to why Infinite was delayed.

[Boyo]

34 minutes ago, Turkeyyy Lips said:

https://www.ign.com/articles/halo-infinite-delay-outsourcing-tv-show-distraction-xbox-series-x

 

A little insight as to why Infinite was delayed.

 

[Craneteam]

37 minutes ago, Turkeyyy Lips said:

https://www.ign.com/articles/halo-infinite-delay-outsourcing-tv-show-distraction-xbox-series-x

 

A little insight as to why Infinite was delayed.

Anthem 2.0 in the making

[Tachyonic]

10 hours ago, _Synapse said:

I still like ShyWay but that guy misses the whole point of every single anti-advanced mobility argument. 

I think every single person who still advocates sprint in 2020 should watch this video by @MultiLockOn and @Cursed Lemon

 

I'm just spitting out some thoughts to develop my thoughts on this, but isn't the example of a player challenging from Green Hall in The Pit a bad example? For one, in H3, the grenade lands in the hall where in H5 the grenade looks like it missed anyway. But the main point he brings up in this example is that a player can play through a grenade throw and keep being aggressive - he talks about all the options someone has in H3 if you're in Green and a grenade is in front of you, you can retreat, you can call them out, etc., and he seems to imply that H5 has all of these same options but also has the opportunity to play through a grenade. But if you can reliably play through that grenade with Sprint, doesn't that actually simplify your strategic options? The best play tends towards pushing forward, at the expense of everything he brings up that you can do in H3. This also crucially overlooks how this affects the power of grenades and a player's agency to counterplay using grenades. Grenades are also a limited resource while Sprint and Thrusting are unlimited. One sort of skill (grenade use, grenade throwing, knowing where they are on the map) is de-emphasized for the aggressive sprint/sliding strategy he discusses in the video.

He also doesn't mention the context of the map space he's in. In Green Hall, the Rockets (or Camo) spawn there. If you enter that part of the map, you're choosing to put yourself at a disadvantage to acquire Rockets. In this particular scenario (and in the space where the player challenges from bottom mid on Sanctuary), the player choosing to enter that space should be at a particular disadvantage relative to players not in that space. The Sprint/Slide example he shows on The Pit here shows how these mechanics can flatten out the power disparity of map geometry relative to a sprintless Halo, which is a pretty big critique leveled against sprint in Halo. 

Am I being reasonable here? Are there some holes in my thinking? I haven't played H5 in a long time and really no interest in it, so this isn't coming from someone reasonably seasoned to critique it from experience.

[_Synapse]

The grenade flat out missed lol. In the H3 clip, the player bounced the nade on the wall of Green, directly adjacent to the POV player and about to instantly go off. 

In H5, it almost felt like the nade was meant to stop someone pushing through long hall. It didn't even do any splash damage to the POV player. 

The "advantage" that sprint gives him in the ability to push is an extremely shallow, situational one. Like he acknowledges himself, the nade could very well have been aimed slightly better, and it would have either erased him or made him one shot and gotten him cleaned up. 

Excellent point about devaluing the risk required when pushing Green Hall, but his argument was moreso to be generalized to all engagements in H5. 

Even otherwise, the mobility that lets him play "aggressively" is symmetric, and just as easily could have been used by the opposing player to escape from said gunfight by thrusting/sprinting/sliding back into the training wall or onto the OS ramp. 

Even ignoring that, he puts himself at a big disadvantage by sprint-sliding because he doesn't have any control over his directional momentum. He can't change direction mid-push to strafe against an enemy's shots or to avoid an angle from an opponent in mauler or first BR. 

This is ignoring the simple fact that only one player should have escaped from that gunfight alive, in a decent Halo game. 

[Tachyonic]

22 minutes ago, _Synapse said:

Excellent point about devaluing the risk required when pushing Green Hall, but his argument was moreso to be generalized to all engagements in H5. 

Even otherwise, the mobility that lets him play "aggressively" is symmetric, and just as easily could have been used by the opposing player to escape from said gunfight by thrusting/sprinting/sliding back into the training wall or onto the OS ramp. 

Even ignoring that, he puts himself at a big disadvantage by sprint-sliding because he doesn't have any control over his directional momentum. He can't change direction mid-push to strafe against an enemy's shots or to avoid an angle from an opponent in mauler or first BR. 

This is ignoring the simple fact that only one player should have escaped from that gunfight alive, in a decent Halo game. 

Yeah, I do see how he was trying to make a general point about encounters, but the point really should have been shown on some map geometry where the power between the players, relative to where they are and the choices they made to be at that specific place, are more equal. It brought up a bunch of questions that directly challenges the value of having such a play be possible anyway.

And yeah, you're completely right, the other player could have sprinted away, and the disadvantage that getting shot knocks you out of sprint anyway is almost totally meaningless as that player was shieldless. Thanks for taking the time to respond!

[_Synapse]

I don't know why they tout the fact that it takes 3 shots to knock somebody out of sprint as a good thing. 

[Cursed Lemon]

"Sprint is GOOD for combat in Halo"

"Slide/thrust jumps are GOOD for combat in Halo and what was I talking about again"

He talks about shield recharge penalty for getting shot while sprinting being a risk-reward type of thing, but all he did was pursue his opponent in a gun battle. He didn't activate some kind of super-special item or unique class ability that gives him an advantage over his opponent, he literally just followed him around the corner. Why in the living hell would we want to add a risk element to the simple act of engaging your enemy via advanced movement? Isn't the point of advanced movement to make base combat more exciting? In what world would we want to spectate someone who says "nah I'm not going to challenge that guy because m'charge time"? That's like automatically docking you 1/4 of your shields because you jumped mid-gunfight.

Not even going into the fact that the video hits /r/SelfAwareWolves territory where he's a hair's width away from realizing that all it takes is an increase in base movement to solve all of these problems organically.

[Boyo]

11 hours ago, _Synapse said:

I still like ShyWay but that guy misses the whole point of every single anti-advanced mobility argument. 

 

The whole video is based on a false premise.  Even if he had Halo 5’s movement, he’s not sprinting half way through green and over a nade that had already come to rest.  The rest of the video is him talking about how good slide is, not sprint.  Slide is pretty much just thrust with extra steps.  Nothing in that video even made me go hmm.  Shyway should stick to trying to make his voice sound deeper.  

[MultiLockOn]

10 hours ago, TeeJaY said:

Will you just be talking over gameplay or is there gonna be some sweet sexy visuals?

Probably gonna use a webcam and have me in it just talking.  Probably some gameplay to the side.

[timeforkoalas]

3 hours ago, Tachyonic said:

But the main point he brings up in this example is that a player can play through a grenade throw and keep being aggressive - he talks about all the options someone has in H3 if you're in Green and a grenade is in front of you, you can retreat, you can call them out, etc., and he seems to imply that H5 has all of these same options but also has the opportunity to play through a grenade. But if you can reliably play through that grenade with Sprint, doesn't that actually simplify your strategic options? The best play tends towards pushing forward, at the expense of everything he brings up that you can do in H3.

I think you are actually saying something similar to what the video proposes at one point. His example in H5 is the sprint slide to aggressively push but then use thrust to back off after finishing the kill. The additional mobility of being able to very quickly push and then back out without getting punished for the hyper aggressive play changes the formula. He then goes on to talk about how these options in H5 reward individual, hyper aggressive plays and the team that capitalized most on this was Splyce in their prime. Remember that Splyce didn't even need to practice 4v4 Halo to be the world champions. While there is definitely a lot of skill involved with these sorts of plays, it's not the team-based decision making that people know competitive Halo for.

He then goes on to posit that Infinite might not have the additional mobility options to be able to aggressively push and then bail out without getting punished for extending out of position from your team. You can sprint slide to finish off the kill, but without the thrust back the enemy team would clean you up anyway. Maybe this gets back to more traditional decision-making and takes away some of the individual aggression that more than likely paid off in H5.

It's a lot to "take away" from a very specific type of encounter. I would have liked to see a wider range of scenarios.

[Boyo]

Sprint and Slide have a unique relationship.  One button repurposes another button’s function.  How else could this concept be explored?  

Instead of sprint, a Movement Modifier button could turn the jump button into a combat roll.  The crouch button could stick the player to a piece of nearby cover.  Holding the melee button could activate your chainsaw.    

[timeforkoalas]

I'd rather see slide be purely momentum-based and not tied to sprint at all. A player needs to be full pressing forward for a short amount of time and then crouch button engages a slide. Sprint could just be an animation that kicks in at that same point in time if you do not slide and the player would keep the normal reticule while "sprinting". Maybe I'm not considering something with that which would feel broken though, since I haven't really experimented with it.

[Boyo]

Any movement ability that is momentum based locks the player in to a single direction, gives less freedom, makes him more predictable.  

[Basu]

Another ShyWay with a god awful take on sprint, time is a flat circle.

[TeeJaY]

Can't believe there's fans out there like this. This is why Halo will never be unique again

[timeforkoalas]

2 hours ago, Boyo said:

Any movement ability that is momentum based locks the player in to a single direction, gives less freedom, makes him more predictable.  

It could be momentum in any direction. Hold right for a second and then crouch would slide right. Allowing more freedom than that is basically a thrust (holding right and then thrusting back left).

[Boyo]

4 minutes ago, timeforkoalas said:

It could be momentum in any direction. Hold right for a second and then crouch would slide right. Allowing more freedom than that is basically a thrust (holding right and then thrusting back left).

How is slide superior to thrust?  

[_Synapse]

"noooooo why just have one brisk player velocity to design around nooooooooo we need 12 separate states of player velocity so that 90% of the movement tricks in the game need you to put your gun down to do them"

[HeX Reapers]

45 minutes ago, TeeJaY said:

Can't believe there's fans out there like this. This is why Halo will never be unique again

That comment chain is one of the worst things I've read in a while.

[Cursed Lemon]

COLEJA BOY TELL'EM

Someone remind me what the stream numbers were for Halo 5's last tournament...whenever the hell that was

[Shekkles]

19 minutes ago, HeX Reapers said:

That comment chain is one of the worst things I've read in a while.

Well yeah, but anyone that writes "FREAKING H3 BOOMERS LIKE DAMN. ADAPT OLD MEN." Is not exactly going to be an introspective thought leader are they?

Anyone can find a crazy idiot who opposes their view and then lift them up as the perfect example of why that view is wrong.

[Warlord Wossman]

Couldn't finish 18 minutes of pointless rambling with possibly the dumbest cherry picked situation that he couldn't even justify sprint in properly.
Honestly this guy reminds me of how some flat earther's make their videos, start with your belief and then build a story around it to convince others rather than look at actual data (in this case different combat and positioning examples with and without sprint) and trying to see how - in this case - a mechanic effects them.

I assume he wants to cast esports events for Halo Sprintfinite so he probably couldn't be against it without possibly risking his position (could be wrong ofc but if he went "sprint is trash, delete now 343" I doubt they would be happy). Honestly I hope it's that because if he thinks his reasoning made any form of sense and doesn't consider the insane amount of other points that have been made against sprint for basically an entire decade now I wouldn't be surprised if he casts using a tinfoil hat in the future.