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Look, if they rework sprint again to add it into Halo Infinite someone needs to give them a knock and say 'If you have to rework this shit three times in an effort to make it work, maybe it doesn't fucking work.'

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54 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

I'm going in thinking "Have they made sprint tolerable". The answer will probably be no...

I'm just going to try and like the game for what it is instead of having expectation which are never going to be met. As I've said many times in the past, Halo 5 isn't an inherently bad game, it's just a bad Halo game. At the end of the day whether you like or dislike sprint in Halo is entirely a preference and not really based on any sort of objective truth of one being superior to the other, ofc I fall into the category of prefering no sprint over sprint but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a Halo game with sprint, I feel the main reasons I disliked Halo 5 so much were because of the expectations that I placed on 343 after Halo 4, that 343 would "learn their lesson" and also my personal expectations for what Halo itself should be. It'd be foolish to make that same mistake, and if you have the expectation of Infinite being a glorious return to form for Halo then you are setting yourself up for serious disappointment, and this time the only person to blame will be yourself. 

Even when Halo is 'bad' it's still better than most other shooters and is still a franchise that I have spent a ton of time playing even in its worst days, if I can live through that then I can handle whatever 343 has to throw at us this time, and this time with adjusted expectations, perhaps even learn to like it the way I liked this franchise when I first discovered it without any of those expectations I grew to learn over time.

All that I really hope for with Infinite is that despite what it plays like, that it be a successful game that a generation of people can grow to love the same way we did.

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11 minutes ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

Look, if they rework sprint again to add it into Halo Infinite someone needs to give them a knock and say 'If you have to rework this shit three times in an effort to make it work, maybe it doesn't fucking work.'

Lock 343 in a room with @Cursed Lemon for 12 hours and see what they think by the end of it. 😂

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13 minutes ago, Mow said:

I'm just going to try and like the game for what it is instead of having expectation which are never going to be met. As I've said many times in the past, Halo 5 isn't an inherently bad game, it's just a bad Halo game. At the end of the day whether you like or dislike sprint in Halo is entirely a preference and not really based on any sort of objective truth of one being superior to the other, ofc I fall into the category of prefering no sprint over sprint but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a Halo game with sprint, I feel the main reasons I disliked Halo 5 so much were because of the expectations that I placed on 343 after Halo 4, that 343 would "learn their lesson" and also my personal expectations for what Halo itself should be. It'd be foolish to make that same mistake, and if you have the expectation of Infinite being a glorious return to form for Halo then you are setting yourself up for serious disappointment, and this time the only person to blame will be yourself. 

Even when Halo is 'bad' it's still better than most other shooters and is still a franchise that I have spent a ton of time playing even in its worst days, if I can live through that then I can handle whatever 343 has to throw at us this time, and this time with adjusted expectations, perhaps even learn to like it the way I liked this franchise when I first discovered it without any of those expectations I grew to learn over time.

All that I really hope for with Infinite is that despite what it plays like, that it be a successful game that a generation of people can grow to love the same way we did.

To me "trying to like a game for what it is" sounds like forcing something, I am not saying you are not allowed to like the game but it sounds more like desperation because you want to like a new Halo game despite the fact that sprint is something you are not a fan of. For me liking a game for "what it is" has to come naturally, I am not saying if I played the game there is 0 chance I change my mind about sprint but I will probably not give sprint another chance when it comes to Halo since I disliked it in Reach and H4 (I already skipped Halo 5 if you were wondering).
Maybe I am just too indifferent about having a Halo title I like, at the end of the day I don't really like any Halo game all that much, CE is probably my fav concept but still has its flaws. I did like the CE and arena shooter inspired Reach mod we made but that was very limited too. And I am aware the chance for that sort of style are insanely tiny, so I guess I have 0 expectations for Infinite and just check how things turn out because I am curious.

Kinda disagree about a "bad" Halo still being better than most other shooters, I feel like traditionally bad Halo games have kinda missed the point of their own designs a lot, having weapons spawn on the map when they barely make a difference, having competitive modes on super simple maps that require little to no decision making and all the small stuff like claiming that things like sprint speed up the game when it has been shown many times that people run away with it because you have to lower your gun. It just feels like the devs didn't know what they were doing on the bad Halo games, that's why despite not being the biggest fan of the following games I would say CS, CoD, Battlefield and even stuff like Apex, Fortnite and PUBG are at the end of the day better shooters.
I would play CoD warzone over the bad Halo games any day because it feels like a lot of stuff makes sense the way it was designed. And yeah I am not a massive CoD warzone fan but at least they knew what they were doing and they added some unique mechanics to their battle royale where the bad Halo games felt more like "oh we have sprint now because other triple A shooters do", "oh we have aim down sights now because other shooters do", "we have this knock off search and destroy mode now because bomb and defuse is popular in esports", "Halo 4 has classes now because other games do".

Halo under 343 always lacked direction when it comes to multiplayer - in my opinion anyways.
So yeah I have no expectations for Infinite as I said already, if they try to take this game beyond what trends suggest it might be nice, but give me either a more classic Halo or go all the way and do your own thing beyond copy pasting stuff from other games into Halo. This sort of in between BS "modernizing" Halo has only left bad memories for me so I won't waste a second of my life giving it a third chance.

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43 minutes ago, Mow said:

At the end of the day whether you like or dislike sprint in Halo is entirely a preference and not really based on any sort of objective truth of one being superior to the other

To cater for sprint:

- Maps made larger for the sole purpose of catering for 1 ability that does nothing for the player (it doesn't get you anywhere faster becase... wait for it... the maps have been made larger!)
- Aim assist increased to cater for enemies moving too fast
- AI Enemies have either tracking weapons ot hitscan, again to cater for player moving too fast
- Player offensive capabilities reduced as to move forward fast you can't shoot, but enemies running away get the full advantage because they don't need to shoot.

It is objective truth that, in Halo, sprint is garbage. The only positive that it offers, faster movement, is immediately redundant by larger map design.

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6 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

To cater for sprint:

- Maps made larger for the sole purpose of catering for 1 ability that does nothing for the player (it doesn't get you anywhere faster becase... wait for it... the maps have been made larger!)
- Aim assist increased to cater for enemies moving too fast
- AI Enemies have either tracking weapons ot hitscan, again to cater for player moving too fast
- Player offensive capabilities reduced as to move forward fast you can't shoot, but enemies running away get the full advantage because they don't need to shoot.

It is objective truth that, in Halo, sprint is garbage. The only positive that it offers, faster movement, is immediately redundant by larger map design.

I think if we were to go the no sprint route we would need doom “4”( I haven’t tried eternal) movement speed. That was faster than any halo but slower than quake. It could work. 

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44 minutes ago, Gold said:

Lock 343 in a room with @Cursed Lemon for 12 hours and see what they think by the end of it. 😂

You mean if they come out alive

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15 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

I think if we were to go the no sprint route we would need doom “4”( I haven’t tried eternal) movement speed. That was faster than any halo but slower than quake. It could work. 

Yeah it's called Halo 1, Halo 2 and Halo 3.

Specifically Halo 2 which has the best movement by far in the series, in my opinion.

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3 hours ago, Boyo said:

I only played the first one but I thought it was a fun spin on the standard side scroller.  What went wrong with the sequels?  

Well, the first sequel (Thousand Year Door) was everything a sequel should be. It maintained the core gameplay formula while delicately adding mechanics that complimented that core. After that though it was all downhill. They removed turn-based battles, the badge system, EXP, partner system, connected world, shops, etc. Not all at once but slowly overtime. All in the name of "innovation".

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23 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

To me "trying to like a game for what it is" sounds like forcing something, I am not saying you are not allowed to like the game but it sounds more like desperation because you want to like a new Halo game despite the fact that sprint is something you are not a fan of. For me liking a game for "what it is" has to come naturally, I am not saying if I played the game there is 0 chance I change my mind about sprint but I will probably not give sprint another chance when it comes to Halo since I disliked it in Reach and H4 (I already skipped Halo 5 if you were wondering).
Maybe I am just too indifferent about having a Halo title I like, at the end of the day I don't really like any Halo game all that much, CE is probably my fav concept but still has its flaws. I did like the CE and arena shooter inspired Reach mod we made but that was very limited too. And I am aware the chance for that sort of style are insanely tiny, so I guess I have 0 expectations for Infinite and just check how things turn out because I am curious.

You kinda summed up my entire post in that last sentence there, by no means am I going to try and 'force' myself to enjoy Infinite, but I will be going into it with no expectations as I believe my expectations have only really served to burn me in the past, like I said, I'd be a fool to do the same thing again.

Kinda disagree about a "bad" Halo still being better than most other shooters, I feel like traditionally bad Halo games have kinda missed the point of their own designs a lot, having weapons spawn on the map when they barely make a difference, having competitive modes on super simple maps that require little to no decision making and all the small stuff like claiming that things like sprint speed up the game when it has been shown many times that people run away with it because you have to lower your gun. It just feels like the devs didn't know what they were doing on the bad Halo games, that's why despite not being the biggest fan of the following games I would say CS, CoD, Battlefield and even stuff like Apex, Fortnite and PUBG are at the end of the day better shooters.
I would play CoD warzone over the bad Halo games any day because it feels like a lot of stuff makes sense the way it was designed. And yeah I am not a massive CoD warzone fan but at least they knew what they were doing and they added some unique mechanics to their battle royale where the bad Halo games felt more like "oh we have sprint now because other triple A shooters do", "oh we have aim down sights now because other shooters do", "we have this knock off search and destroy mode now because bomb and defuse is popular in esports", "Halo 4 has classes now because other games do".

I did mean to put an 'imo' in there somewhere, ofc all of what I said is from my personal experience, for me, even when Halo is 'bad' it still offers features like forge and custom games that most other games don't have, which has given me a ton of playtime over the years when compared to other franchises. Also I think CoD Warzone is absolute trash but that's neither here nor there.

Halo under 343 always lacked direction when it comes to multiplayer - in my opinion anyways.
So yeah I have no expectations for Infinite as I said already, if they try to take this game beyond what trends suggest it might be nice, but give me either a more classic Halo or go all the way and do your own thing beyond copy pasting stuff from other games into Halo. This sort of in between BS "modernizing" Halo has only left bad memories for me so I won't waste a second of my life giving it a third chance.

I don't even necesarrily disagree with anything you have said, my main point is that if you're expecting Infinite to cater to your particular preference, you're most likely going to be very disappointed, the same way we all have been in the past, and that the best way forward is to either take Infinite for what it is, with curiosity, an open mind and no expectations, or cut your losses and bail out if you can't deal with the possibility of it having sprint, which it most likely will. 

This time the responsibility is on us to set our expectations properly, we've all been burned in the past by expecting 343 to return Halo to the glory days and they've repeatedly shown that either they are unwilling or unable to do so, so if you make the same mistake of expecting something different this time, it is on you.

 

19 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

To cater for sprint:

- Maps made larger for the sole purpose of catering for 1 ability that does nothing for the player (it doesn't get you anywhere faster becase... wait for it... the maps have been made larger!)
- Aim assist increased to cater for enemies moving too fast
- AI Enemies have either tracking weapons ot hitscan, again to cater for player moving too fast
- Player offensive capabilities reduced as to move forward fast you can't shoot, but enemies running away get the full advantage because they don't need to shoot.

It is objective truth that, in Halo, sprint is garbage. The only positive that it offers, faster movement, is immediately redundant by larger map design.

You're kinda preaching to the choir here listing those things, but that still doesn't change the fact that it is a preference and not an objective fact, there's plenty more things that sprint does to the gameplay that you haven't listed here, things which create many differences in the gameplay when compared to OG Halo, differences that some people may prefer. I may disagree with their preference, but that doesn't make those people wrong.

Replies in Bold.

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This has been said a billion times already but sprint doesn't need to exist at all in Halo.

You want the game to feel faster? 120%-130% Halo CE/2/3 movement speed, 120-130% strafe acceleration and deceleration, ultra-low minimum TTK, and power items spawning every minute.

You want the game to keep the movement skillgap from Halo 5? Most of that can be replicated with a specially tuned physics/movement system, and with ledges placed carefully on maps to recreate the skillgap, like Halo 3's ghost ledges. 

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My hopes for Infinite are

1. I'd like there to be no sprint. That's just the version of Halo I enjoy.
2. Failing 1 I'd really like to be part of the flights to help test and provide feedback anyways. Maybe I could enjoy the game as something without the expectation that comes with it being a Halo game.
3. Failing 1 I would at least hope to enjoy it as its own video game but I will not be forcing myself to play the game if that isn't true

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5 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Yeah it's called Halo 1, Halo 2 and Halo 3.

Specifically Halo 2 which has the best movement by far in the series, in my opinion.

Umm I meant speed wise. H1-3 based movement is slow AF 

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I can't help but look forward to this reveal tbh. It's Halo, it's always going to be a cool reveal to watch live. 

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I've given up any hope that halo infinite will be enjoyable out of the box. The only way I can tolerate sprint is if kill times are cod-level fast. 

Mod support and custom game browsers are the only potential silver lining I'm holding out for. 

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1 hour ago, HeX Reapers said:

No.

Go play BTB and tell me that. The overall movement of these games is abysmally slow. I need at least doom level speed.

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Movement speed doesn't NEED to be increased.

What you interpret as 'abysmally slow' movement can be remedied simply by having appropriately sized levels and appropriately balanced weapons.

They COULD increase movement speed, but if the map scaling and weapon functionality aren't designed around it, it won't help much.

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10 hours ago, Gold said:

Lock 343 in a room with @Cursed Lemon for 12 hours and see what they think by the end of it. 😂

You guys would be willing to overlook one ethically questionable half day for a better Halo game, right?

24 minutes ago, a Chunk said:

What you interpret as 'abysmally slow' movement can be remedied simply by having appropriately sized levels and appropriately balanced weapons.

The problem is strafe and how it factors into the granularity of aiming ability and reaction time - we all want a good strafe so that our movement ability means something. We need a fast strafe, which either means unnaturally jerky animations or it means increasing the base speed.

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The balance between strafe and aim assist is one of the most important aspects of Halo’s design.  Then between movement speed and map scale.  Map scale and RRR and so on.  

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@Mow as much as I agree with the points @Shekkles brought up I agree that there is no objective truth here, even if you consider more effects sprint has on how the game plays there is no objective way to really say which one is better or worse at the end of the day.
Personally I would mostly add that sprint amplifies the problems Halo always had with respawns, think that's def one of the biggest points missing from the list.
With long TTK's you create the potential for long gunfights, long enough to analyze and react to your suspicion that you could be loosing that fight and decide to disengage - that also worked in some of the classic Halo's btw - but the problem now is that sprint makes it easier to completely run and gain distance, the person who wants to finish you either can't sprint if he wants to take more shots or chase you by sprinting himself, probably to run into some grenade set up that people who often get away (in situations you shouldn't be able to in my opinion) will use advantage of.
It turns more into a cat and mouse game, teamshot is even more overshadowing all the other "tactics" if you have sprint which decreases the skillgap in decision making even further. Projectile weapons are inherently harder to use than hitscan which also gets amplified by different movement speed and so on and so forth, I could probably bring up a million other things but I just do feel like Halo has always been a game that focuses on the casual fun side where you drive around in a warthog with some friends in BTB and have a laugh, basically a shooter that tries to capture Mario Party vibes with all the other things like "4v4 hardcore" being an afterthought that suffers from designs made for campaign, casual multiplayer, chasing trends, etc.

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3 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

Go play BTB and tell me that. The overall movement of these games is abysmally slow. I need at least doom level speed.

You shouldn't cater movement mechanics around BTB, as the BTB universe provides alternative methods for traversing the map and condensing the gameplay. Vehicles let you move faster. Man canons can launch you to specific places. Teleporters, well, teleport you. Specific weapons help you battle other players from longer distances. The point of BTB is to take advantage of these external features, not to simply provide a bigger 4v4 experience. I'm not saying Doom-level speeds can't work in Halo (mostly because I haven't played Doom), but if your reasoning for adopting such speeds over H2's speed and strafe—which, I think it's fairly safe to say, are almost universally accepted in the Halo community as the best in the franchise—is that it improves the BTB experience, you're starting from the wrong place. A game's core mechanics should be balanced around its premier experience, and in Halo that's 4v4.

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3 hours ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

The point of BTB is to take advantage of these external features, not to simply provide a bigger 4v4 experience.

Besides vehicles, does BTB really offer that unique of an experience compared to 4v4?  I would say no.  You play the same gametypes with the same base traits.  I believe that Halo’s large scale battlefield experience should offer something truly unique compared to 4v4.    

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59 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Besides vehicles, does BTB really offer that unique of an experience compared to 4v4?  I would say no.  You play the same gametypes with the same base traits.  I believe that Halo’s large scale battlefield experience should offer something truly unique compared to 4v4.    

Map control / map presence and exerting pressure are much more important in 8v8, because one person can’t affect the game as much. Flanks are less valuable. All-downs are super rare. Coordinated pushes are more necessary. It does play pretty differently, even if you just took 4v4 maps and upscaled them for 8v8. And each style has their own merit and are both highly enjoyable.

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9 hours ago, a Chunk said:

Movement speed doesn't NEED to be increased.

What you interpret as 'abysmally slow' movement can be remedied simply by having appropriately sized levels and appropriately balanced weapons.

They COULD increase movement speed, but if the map scaling and weapon functionality aren't designed around it, it won't help much.

Yes.

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