Jump to content
CyReN

Halo Infinite Discussion

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

If you ask me losing objective when you WERE winning let’s me know you aren’t as skilled as you think. Slayer is easy, the strategy isn’t nearly there as obj is. Anyone can time power ups which are very op in slayer. Even power weapons are way more effective in slayer.

swing mechanics are good for a competitive game. Have you played CS, OW etc? Sometimes people have good starts and bad starts. Even if you start coming back, if your 25-45 chances of you coming back is like 5%

Every sentence in this post is just backwards I'm not really sure how to address this. 

 

No swing mechanics are not good for competitive. The name literally implies there's something overrewarding built into the game for the pure sake of changing the tides that's not dependent on your skill level. The less granular the scoring becomes, the more you polarize the potential outcomes and very very close games can be scored massively different. Which is another reason why I like Hill, anything that scores based on seconds means that it's actually proportionate to the time you've invested info the hill. If you're losing significantly off the start of the match then that's your own fault, deal with the consequences. Not drop a BFG onto the map and hope the losing teams picks it up. I'm not sure why you mentioned CS or OW as the closest thing either of them have to swing mechanics is an OW super. The gametypes are pretty cut and dry. If your game is properly designed and skillful than a comeback will always be possible.

"If you ask me losing objective when you WERE winning let’s me know you aren’t as skilled as you think. Slayer is easy, the strategy isn’t nearly there as obj is. Anyone can time power ups which are very op in slayer. Even power weapons are way more effective in slayer."

 

None of this makes any sense so I'm not really going to dignify it with a response. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Boyo said:

I always likened an objective carrier to a King in chess, slow but deadly in close quarters.  

@MultiLockOn If you had to split gametypes between “4v4 and under” and “over 4v4”, how would you divide them?  

5s and up, CTF, One Flag, Multi bomb, Territories

4s and Down. Ctf, One Flag, One Bomb, Slayer, Hill. 

 

I don't care about VIP, jugg, or oddball.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Every sentence in this post is just backwards I'm not really sure how to address this. 

 

No swing mechanics are not good for competitive. The name literally implies there's something overrewarding built into the game for the pure sake of changing the tides that's not dependent on your skill level. The less granular the scoring becomes, the more you polarize the potential outcomes and very very close games can be scored massively different. Which is another reason why I like Hill, anything that scores based on seconds means that it's actually proportionate to the time you've invested info the hill. If you're losing significantly off the start of the match then that's your own fault, deal with the consequences. Not drop a BFG onto the map and hope the losing teams picks it up. I'm not sure why you mentioned CS or OW as the closest thing either of them have to swing mechanics is an OW super. The gametypes are pretty cut and dry. If your game is properly designed and skillful than a comeback will always be possible.

"If you ask me losing objective when you WERE winning let’s me know you aren’t as skilled as you think. Slayer is easy, the strategy isn’t nearly there as obj is. Anyone can time power ups which are very op in slayer. Even power weapons are way more effective in slayer."

 

None of this makes any sense so I'm not really going to dignify it with a response. 

 

 

 

I don’t think you read my post without your bias. Ctf there’s no “swing mechanic” or in any objective mode I know of. Nonsense the fact is that team made a solid comeback 3 capping when you had two on them. In csgo a team who’s only won 1 round can make a solid comeback that’s not unrealistic. Overwatch obj works the same way. Seriously where did you up with that “swing mechanic” this sounds like something the game purposely implements to give the losing team a chance, when that’s not the case ever! They won the obj with the time they had which in halos case is 15 minutes(with potential 15 extra for OT or 3 minutes in h5s case) 

growing up on halo i remember playing with people in team slayer who were gods against the best kids but moment they were in obj things changed. Like idk even know what happened. They weren’t as good. 

Slayer comebacks happen too but usually not in unrealistic proportions. 

Share this post


Link to post
21 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

I don’t think you read my post without your bias. Ctf there’s no “swing mechanic” nonsense the fact is that team made a solid comeback 3 capping when you had two on them. In csgo a team who’s only won 1 round can make a solid comeback that’s not unrealistic. Overwatch obj works the same way. Seriously where did you up with that “swing mechanic” this sounds like something the game purposely implements to give the losing team a chance. 

??

38 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

swing mechanics are good for a competitive game. 

 

What you're essentially arguing for in obj is the fact that scoring is not granular at all, that it makes for comeback potential.  I understand that.

 

What I'm saying is that you can do that in kill based game modes just as well, and the skill to do it is more proportionate as the scoring more accurately represents the skill of the game. You're basing the inability to come back from a slayer deficit on your understanding of Halo's maps which have traditionally been, VERY snowbally. People bring up CE because that game had proper skill and better level design so that wasn't true. 

 

I'll say that I'm at odds with most in that I don't believe objective is inherently more complex or deeper or requires more decision making than slayer. I think it basically trivializes every decision you make that isn't either, "go for the flag" or "defend the flag". In slayer (on a good map) I can move around as I wish, pace myself how I wish, and do things in a very unorthodox way to be creative and attempt a comeback. In something like CTF that's not possible. It doesn't matter where I go on the map because they know I HAVE to go for their flag, someone might as well just sit in their base. Similarly I HAVE to defend my flag, so my freedom of movement is severely limited. I think it makes games very linear to be honest, and basically gives you one of maybe 3 very predictable options. The map will play the game way, every time, for both teams. Slayer doesn't do that. I think there's a lot of more variance moment to moment, and even between matches and teams that let your decision making be much more representative of your actual skill.

 

Ctf again, this isn't true. You have, some, decisions. And they are very meaningful, meaning that whether you choose to run the flag or wait could determine the outcome of a match - but that doesn't make it a difficult decision. A moron could flip a coin and make the right play in a flag match a majority of the time. Because it's meaningful, not difficult. 

I think flag just packages up a match in such a way that masquerades itself as a competitive experience. It LOOKS competitive and it sounds competitive, but I don't think there's more skill in a 4s flag match than a 2s slayer match. In the same way search and destroy in COD looks competitive, sounds competitive, acts like it's competitive. But it's not. It's really shallow. 

"growing up on halo i remember playing with people in team slayer who were gods against the best kids but moment they were in obj things changed. Like idk even know what happened. They weren’t as good. "

 

What happened is they switched to a mode that wasn't indicative of their game skill and rewarded holding the X button to pick up a flag and walk it across the map. It's not difficult, it's not skillful. To be honest it's not even a thoughtful decision to make. You just need to find the right opportunity, which much of the times happens for much worse teams because spawns work out that way sometimes. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
54 minutes ago, Killmachine said:

Its not what he did lol

(Almost like that's the joke)

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

What I'm saying is that you can do that in kill based game modes just as well,

Not in the same way you can in objective based modes. There’s certain moments in slayer even in ce it’s game over. That comeback isn’t happening whatsoever. 
 

 

8 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

can move around as I wish, pace myself how I wish, and do things in a very unorthodox way to be creative and attempt a comeback.

Maybe this is the problem. There’s a certain pace you need to play in objective which if a player can’t adapt too you are not skilled. You’re comfortable in slayer and obj takes you out of your comfort zone and or others in fact can’t handle or just flat out find that distasteful.

8 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

It LOOKS competitive and it sounds competitive,

We’ll flag has been pretty competitive from my experience and many others so there’s that. 

 

 

  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

Not in the same way you can in objective based modes. There’s certain moments in slayer even in ce it’s game over. That comeback isn’t happening whatsoever. 
 

 

Maybe this is the problem. There’s a certain pace you need to play in objective which if a player can’t adapt too you are not skilled. You’re comfortable in slayer and obj takes you out of your comfort zone and or others in fact can’t handle or just flat out find that distasteful.

We’ll flag has been pretty competitive from my experience and many others so there’s that. 

 

 

So your argument has nothing to do with what I just said, and instead is just about my personal comforts and discomforts and how people feel. 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

So your argument has nothing to do with what I just said, and instead is just about my personal comforts and discomforts and how people feel. 

But it has everything to do with what you said. It’s not like you stated some objective fact. And also just because you can’t move or pace as you desire doesn’t make it any less skilled. 

  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I see where you’re coming from @MultiLockOn, particularly on the point about unpredictability. But I also think you’re undervaluing the skillset of setting up and executing a good flag run as a team. That’s why I think it’s so important for a game, a series, and a playlist to demand a mastery of several different skillsets.

That’s why I love the map pool in CE so much. Every map requires a completely different approach. It’s also why I hate that MLG v8 runs both Heretic and Amplified TS. They’re redundant skillsets.

  • Like (+1) 3
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Kinda shocks me how little about this game has leaked, especially in the last few months. The last leaks that I remember that might be somewhat reliable were years ago and about the Campaign being more open world and RPG-like (which I think is likely). I am not sure we have heard anything about the multiplayer, even though there are probably quite a few people who literally came from the community to work at 343 that have played the game by now. With the reveal a little over a month away I wonder if we will start to get some tidbits here and there. 

Genuinely surprised that everyone has seemingly been so tight lipped about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
57 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

I see where you’re coming from @MultiLockOn, particularly on the point about unpredictability. But I also think you’re undervaluing the skillset of setting up and executing a good flag run as a team. That’s why I think it’s so important for a game, a series, and a playlist to demand a mastery of several different skillsets.

That’s why I love the map pool in CE so much. Every map requires a completely different approach. It’s also why I hate that MLG v8 runs both Heretic and Amplified TS. They’re redundant skillsets.

Right it's essentially that, which is also why I liked Koth. Stressing communicating within larger amounts of players is obviously a pretty unique skill, but it just seems to me that it comes at the cost of a lot of others things, in this case I'd say free thinking. CTF is pretty but and dry, the way everyone plays it is pretty much exactly the same start to finish, at least when compared to slayer which is very free flowing. I think the decisions made in slayer aren't subject to any outside influences either regarding the objective, meaning it actually was you who solved the problem. Whereas flag offers all the options you have the moment you load up the gametype. 

 

This is all very abstract and far removed thinking though, it's just why I prefer slayer. I think anytime you tell the player exactly how to win you've already taken away true decision making. I feel like I'm pretty good at navigating the map and moving pretty creatively with a teammate but a lot of the goes out the window with a predetermined objective. 

 

Just food for thought. 

 

Edit: There's probably a way you can combine slayer/obj by weighting values between both kills and captures of a single objective that would retain all these skill sets  

  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

I don’t think you read my post without your bias. Ctf there’s no “swing mechanic” or in any objective mode I know of. Nonsense the fact is that team made a solid comeback 3 capping when you had two on them. In csgo a team who’s only won 1 round can make a solid comeback that’s not unrealistic. Overwatch obj works the same way. Seriously where did you up with that “swing mechanic” this sounds like something the game purposely implements to give the losing team a chance, when that’s not the case ever! They won the obj with the time they had which in halos case is 15 minutes(with potential 15 extra for OT or 3 minutes in h5s case) 

growing up on halo i remember playing with people in team slayer who were gods against the best kids but moment they were in obj things changed. Like idk even know what happened. They weren’t as good. 

Slayer comebacks happen too but usually not in unrealistic proportions. 

There's a group of players in every Halo game who are just good enough to roll the Team Slayer playlist or statwhore in Team Objective as a TO4 but not good enough to make their mark in the MLG/competitive playlist. You can always tell when you're playing these people when the enemy team knows weapon/power-up spawns on maps like Assembly, Snowbound, Orbital, etc.

  • Like (+1) 4
  • Simms (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

@MultiLockOn, I think it’d be kinda cool if each base had 3 different flag locations, and in order to win, you had to cap from all 3.

Failing that, I think maps should make more of a point to place the flag in a position that allows for as many different viable flag routes and approaches as possible. In general I think this should mean moving the flags forward a bit, so teams need to worry about attackers coming in from behind. If CTF maps need to be a bit longer as a result, I think it’s worth it.

I think that same concept should be applied vertically as well. Let attackers drop in from above or pull from below. Let the runner run the flag backwards to a teleporter. I think that would go a long way in keeping the meta from becoming a concrete solution.

Essentially, make pulling the flag a 3-dimensional task rather than 2. Instead of trying to force spawns to left or right, try to force them into the top-back-right, etc.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Reamis25 said:

But it has everything to do with what you said. It’s not like you stated some objective fact. And also just because you can’t move or pace as you desire doesn’t make it any less skilled. 

Oh so this is the part where you're telling me I don't like it because I can't adapt. I see where this is leading. 

Not all skills are equal. There's the underlying statement at the heart of this discussion. If you can't accept that truth then there's no reason to discuss any further. If you CAN accept that, then we can talk about whether or not the skill associated with obj is better than that of slayer. 

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

@MultiLockOn, I think it’d be kinda cool if each base had 3 different flag locations, and in order to win, you had to cap from all 3.

Failing that, I think maps should make more of a point to place the flag in a position that allows for as many different viable flag routes and approaches as possible. In general I think this should mean moving the flags forward a bit, so teams need to worry about attackers coming in from behind. If CTF maps need to be a bit longer as a result, I think it’s worth it.

I think that same concept should be applied vertically as well. Let attackers drop in from above or pull from below. Let the runner run the flag backwards to a teleporter. I think that would go a long way in keeping the meta from becoming a concrete solution.

Essentially, make pulling the flag a 3-dimensional task rather than 2. Instead of trying to force spawns to left or right, try to force them into the top-back-right, etc.

Yup. I think what this is going to entail is purpose built maps however, which is usually the opposite of what Halo does. Which for the record I'm all for. Specifically built maps just for flag, just for koth, just for slayer, etc  

  • Like (+1) 2
  • Fire (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I think the issue with 2v2 obj is that it requires 50% of your team to be powerless for extended periods of time. I think there are solutions to this problem though. Things that condense the action or keep all players powerful.

Thats why I like the idea of 1-Plot Strongholds for 2v2, 1 Flag Stockpile with 100% movement speed with the flag, and Reverse Tag with 90% movement speed for “It”. All gametypes allow for maximum up-time with your weapon, and minimal restrictiveness with your positioning.

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Ironically, I've always enjoyed Oddball in 2v2 for that reason. Since you only have one "free" player, it makes setting up far more difficult than 4v4; you don't run into issues of teams running the same strategy the entire game—you have to play the situation. At the same time, the objective is mobile—players are not forced to move into shitty positions to score points. Strategies are there, they just aren't airtight like they are in 4v4.

I definitely agree, though, in the context of 2v2 Hill. Hill removes player agency in that setting. You have to stand in the death trap no matter what, even though the player count makes it impossible to hold. Hill works in 4v4 because you can effectively lock down the hill—scoring isn't a death sentence.

  • Like (+1) 2
  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, NavG123 said:

There's a group of players in every Halo game who are just good enough to roll the Team Slayer playlist or statwhore in Team Objective as a TO4 but not good enough to make their mark in the MLG/competitive playlist. You can always tell when you're playing these people when the enemy team knows weapon/power-up spawns on maps like Assembly, Snowbound, Orbital, etc.

This is true but even in mlg id find people who could play slayer like it was a piece of cake but struggled hard in objective.. multi is wrong that there is only “this way to win” unless he’s talking about the pull flag and score(which if that’s what he means we’re done talking because that’s stupid) in obj you need to be smart when you’re pulling, you need to make sure you have a good idea where the enemy will spawn so they don’t instantly stop you from capping. Many players in slayer hate that. What because you have lesss creative freedom to do as you please it’s less skill? That’s bollocks! 

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Oh so this is the part where you're telling me I don't like it because I can't adapt. I see where this is leading. 

Not all skills are equal. There's the underlying statement at the heart of this discussion. If you can't accept that truth then there's no reason to discuss any further. If you CAN accept that, then we can talk about whether or not the skill associated with obj is better than that of slayer. 

Tbh that’s kinda what it sounds like. But no I understand not all skills are equal but I don’t find the skill in slayer or tdm to be significant. Let’s talk only 4v4 no 1s or 2s because those are irrelevant to the discussion. In slayer there’s a set strategy that’s already present, and it’s obvious how you gotta play this out. Power positions hold far more weight in slayer because unlike in slayer you don’t need to possibly move away from this spot. There’s less risk in mind. In obj there’s all kinds of risk which is why obj is more satisfying to win. And even then this all comes down to the ability of comebacks. I find Ctf, strongholds, assasult to be far better than king or ball. Only because king and ball are completely time reliant. But in Ctf, assault rven if there’s only 15 seconds on the clock you can bust out a ringer. Now in king that can happen too but only if the teams were that e close in score. 
 

  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

That’s why I like the CoD approach for time-based games. Stop the clock when the obj is in play. Then just use a reduced time limit.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

Tbh that’s kinda what it sounds like. But no I understand not all skills are equal but I don’t find the skill in slayer or tdm to be significant. Let’s talk only 4v4 no 1s or 2s because those are irrelevant to the discussion. In slayer there’s a set strategy that’s already present, and it’s obvious how you gotta play this out. Power positions hold far more weight in slayer because unlike in slayer you don’t need to possibly move away from this spot. There’s less risk in mind. In obj there’s all kinds of risk which is why obj is more satisfying to win. And even then this all comes down to the ability of comebacks. I find Ctf, strongholds, assasult to be far better than king or ball. Only because king and ball are completely time reliant. But in Ctf, assault rven if there’s only 15 seconds on the clock you can bust out a ringer. Now in king that can happen too but only if the teams were that e close in score. 
 

Just out of total curiosity - what forum did you discover Beyond from?  Were you frequenting another Halo site before this.

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Just out of total curiosity - what forum did you discover Beyond from?  Were you frequenting another Halo site before this.

None of your business. 
@Hard Way that actually would be very good for halo. Sometimes it’s annoying seeing a team have no chance because they no longer have enough time to win. 

  • Salt (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Regarding CTF and flag stalemates, what about putting the flag itself on a clock once it's been pulled? When it hits zero, the flag returns to its home base regardless of whether or not it's being held. This can be in lieu of or in addition to reset timers.

  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Regarding CTF and flag stalemates, what about putting the flag itself on a clock once it's been pulled? When it hits zero, the flag returns to its home base regardless of whether or not it's being held. This can be in lieu of or in addition to reset timers.

I think the flag timer should stop to give that team a chance at success. I think the way 343 implemented OT in h5 was very good but I felt that 3 extra minutes wasn’t enough.

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Just out of total curiosity - what forum did you discover Beyond from?  Were you frequenting another Halo site before this.

His buddy, that worked on Shadowrun, told him about it.  

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.