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45 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Playing video games for the story is like going to a restaurant for the waitresses. Literally why?

Gourmands are very interested in the craft and art of cooking, and they are also very knowledgeable about everything, from the making of the wine to the master chiefs background. Every Michelin restaurant have a story to tell. And to participate in that story usually elevate the experience.

Then there are McDonalds junkies that just want to stuff themselves and reach instant rewards.

So, which one are you?

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Ever read or watch porn with a surprisingly decent story? It's like a 2 for 1 deal.

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4 hours ago, Mr Grim said:

Are you actually this dumb?

Triggered lorebaby.

4 hours ago, FireAtWill said:

Gourmands are very interested in the craft and art of cooking, and they are also very knowledgeable about everything, from the making of the wine to the master chiefs background. Every Michelin restaurant have a story to tell. And to participate in that story usually elevate the experience.

Then there are McDonalds junkies that just want to stuff themselves and reach instant rewards.

So, which one are you?

Not sure if I should explain to you why this makes no sense, or just meme you to death.

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4 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Triggered lorebaby.

Not sure if I should explain to you why this makes no sense, or just meme you to death.

I got my gold bar because of my meme skills. So please, go ahead and try.

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1 hour ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Triggered lorebaby.

Not sure if I should explain to you why this makes no sense, or just meme you to death.

57 minutes ago, FireAtWill said:

I got my gold bar because of my meme skills. So please, go ahead and try.

Poe's law 

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On 5/21/2020 at 5:23 AM, SpitFlame said:

Reading these comments on H4's story reminds me that knowing what makes a good multiplayer doesn't translate to knowing what makes good writing. I guess I'll be 343's sole defender in that regard.

First of all, having a good art style or soundtrack doesn't make a good story. Read a book. A book has none of those things and yet they often have the best stories. What makes a good story is the script and direction. Not that this is to undervalue art or music, those things have their place.

What makes H4 have the best campaign (story-wise at least) is that the characters actually talk and act like human beings and not placeholders for action figures to be sold afterwards, and the events of the plot is fairly subversive and unpredictable, unlike the other games.

H4 is the only Halo game to my knowledge where characters talk about and reflect on things that isn't the main mission (ODST kinda does this). Every once in a while Chief will ask Cortana how she's doing, or Cortana will start talking about the sun because she can't "experience" it like a normal human, or when Lasky tells Chief that soldiers are just people, or they'll reference the Spartan-II program. It's a lot like the Halo books.

cczi950kb4z41.png

So if you didn't like Chief in H4, stay away from the books. (I'm talking about the Eric Nylund books especially, like Fall of Reach or First Strike; Ghosts of Onyx, too). In the books Chief gets angry, gets sad, thinks of the past, even disobeys direct orders from the authorities if it goes against his conscience. H4 Chief is a lot like book Chief; like when Chief acts like a boss and tells that dick bag Del Rio "no, sir." Or when Cortana is having trouble retrieving some specific information because of her rampancy, so Chief sighs and tells her in a calm voice to not think about anything else. Or when Chief gets upset at the notion that Cortana will be replaced. Or whenever Chief feels uncomfortable, he starts fidgeting with his rifle. It's a nice and subtle detail to his character.

Given the circumstances, it's all very plausible behaviour. Unlike H2 or 3 where Chief is just kinda there. Is it really a coincidence that people liked Arbiter so much in H2? (in hindsight I mean, after they got over the shock of not playing as Chief). People like stories where human beings (or aliens voiced by human actors) struggle on a personal level. It's far more compelling to see Chief or Cortana or Lasky act like human beings (like in the books) than the very artificially behaved characters from previous games, where they're only ever allowed to act in specific ways that advance the immediate plot.

Then there's the plot direction, which is a thousand times better in H4 than any other Halo game. To understand why, let's compare it to Witcher 3. I'm sure we can all agree that Witcher 3's story was the tits, some of the best writing ever. Part of that is because the characters are interesting and have depth to them (not unlike H4) but also because the world doesn't revolve around Geralt, the protagonist. In W3 plans don't always work out. Sometimes shit happens, and all Geralt can do is react to it. It makes the plot feel very real and lived-in, because we never know what's going to happen next. There were so many times during W3's main quest where things don't go according to plan and the characters suffer a loss; it's the type of story that is always subverting your expectations. Because, again, the world doesn't revolve around you. Unlike Skyrim where the world does revolve around your character, and so everything you do will always work out in the end. It's boring and shallow.

H4 is more like Witcher 3 than Skyrim or the earlier Halo games. In H4 shit can go horribly wrong and often does: Del Rio ordering you to kill Cortana, failing to save all those scientists on that ship from the composer which promptly disintegrates them, Cortana straight up dying, even in the first mission where Chief fails to find the escape pod and lands on Requiem. This type of writing is way more compelling, because you never know what will happen. Tell me, how many of you actually expected all those scientists to die? In the other Halo games everything would have turned out fine. (Halo Reach doesn't count because we all knew Reach was fucked from the beginning, so it didn't surprise us). This hearkens to the advice that Vince Gilligan (the writer for Breaking Bad) gave to telling an interesting story: have characters behave plausibly, and always keep surprising the audience. This isn't to say that Halo 1-3 never does these things or never have moments of good writing (because they do), but H4 takes it to the next level. My favourite scene is when all of those scientists get composed, then Chief stands up and looks at all of them, hesitating before telling Cortana that they have to continue moving, then he's thrown off his game when Cortana tells him that she'll be replaced. These sort of extended scenes just don't happen in the other games, at least not to this effect.

Another thing that makes H4's story great is how every plot point makes sense; every scene is a logical consequence of the previous scene, and the whole things bleeds together very well. Unlike H5 where half the scenes make no sense and everyone talks like a puppet. H4's scenes also stick to its roots, it doesn't constantly time-skip to all the "big moments" like H2 or 3.

Yeah, the Didact was pretty lame, but I don't see how the people who hate him are the same people who love the Gravemind or the prophets. Both villains seem to suffer from the same problem of only ever speaking cryptically about their evil plans. The difference is that the Didact actually has a really cool backstory.

So to sum up this long post: H4's story is the best one because it's closer in execution to the books, characters have more depth, plot is more personal and unpredictable, dialogue is really solid, and if you guys still don't believe me, check out this in-depth level-by-level analysis of Halo 4's campaign explaining why it's the best, and it's written by someone who actually has an English literature degree, so he's far more qualified to talk about this stuff than any of us.

It really annoys me when people hate on H4's story just because 343 made it.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Halo 4. The story is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of English literature most of the lines will go over a typical player's head. There's also the Didact's deranged outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volva literature, for instance. The Halo 4 fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these characters, to realise that they're not just dialogue- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Halo 4's story truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the meaning in Cortana's existential catchphrase "I've always wanted to do that" which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Chris Schlerf's genius  unfolds itself on their screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Cortana Rule 34 tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎

 

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Halo 4's story ended with what we thought Didact and Cortana dying, just to find out neither died. How is that a good story? 

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18 hours ago, SpitFlame said:

-snip-

Bro you can't just say "yeah the primary antagonist of the game was lame" like that doesn't matter in the slightest. It's a huge detriment to the story when nobody knows nor gives a shit what the big bad is doing and why. You also can't defend a story in which none of the supporting characters do anything interesting and/or are interesting in and of themselves. Laskey might as well be a randomly generated NPC, Del Rio is an utter trope and is actively annoying, and how the Librarian is presented in the game is exceedingly convoluted and confusing. Halsey is a compelling personality but she has far too little screen time for the significance of her involvement in what is a more forlorn, meditative take on Halo.

People generally liked Halo 4's campaign because of exactly what you said, the reflective/introspective mood and the interactions between Cortana and Chief - characters we've known for years, have grown with, and understand their experiences and current state of mind. The vessel in which that subplot lives, the overarching story of Halo 4, is bereft of any emotional investment regardless of whether or not it connects its own dots well.

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Remember when the Didact died was teleported to some other place where he killed multiple characters off screen then got stored on a USB 

 

Main villain of Halo 4 by the way, and players aren't even the ones to stop him. 

 

EDIT: At least it was better than 5s story

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3 hours ago, _Synapse said:

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Halo 4. The story is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of English literature most of the lines will go over a typical player's head. There's also the Didact's deranged outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volva literature, for instance. The Halo 4 fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these characters, to realise that they're not just dialogue- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Halo 4's story truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the meaning in Cortana's existential catchphrase "I've always wanted to do that" which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Chris Schlerf's genius  unfolds itself on their screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Cortana Rule 34 tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎

 

LOL this is such a reddit-tier response. I guess you also have to have a high IQ to understand Bungie’s “symbolism,” like you mentioned. At least Lemon can respond intelligently and not just post a meme without thinking too much about the point I made.

1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Bro you can't just say "yeah the primary antagonist of the game was lame" like that doesn't matter in the slightest. It's a huge detriment to the story when nobody knows nor gives a shit what the big bad is doing and why. You also can't defend a story in which none of the supporting characters do anything interesting and/or are interesting in and of themselves. Laskey might as well be a randomly generated NPC, Del Rio is an utter trope and is actively annoying, and how the Librarian is presented in the game is exceedingly convoluted and confusing. Halsey is a compelling personality but she has far too little screen time for the significance of her involvement in what is a more forlorn, meditative take on Halo.

People generally liked Halo 4's campaign because of exactly what you said, the reflective/introspective mood and the interactions between Cortana and Chief - characters we've known for years, have grown with, and understand their experiences and current state of mind. The vessel in which that subplot lives, the overarching story of Halo 4, is bereft of any emotional investment regardless of whether or not it connects its own dots well.

People did care about what the Didactic was doing. He was trying to kill all humans, that’s enough reason to care. By “lame” I meant his personality. It’s kinda like Sauron: he was this big threatening obstacle you had to overcome, but the character himself wasn’t fully developed. Unless you think LOTR is a bad story?

The only unlikeable character was Del Rio, and at least he gave us that “no sir” scene. People generally like Lasky, I’m surprised you say that about him. You could say he could have been replaced by another NPC, but Lasky was a new character. Any new character can be replaced by another character because the former hasn’t been established yet. Cortana in the first game could have been replaced by another AI.

I don’t see what relevance Halsey would have with a more direct appearance. She was the goal to whom Chief and Cortana were aiming, because she could save Cortana, who the player presumably cares about saving. That’s all you needed to incentivize the Chief (and by extension the player) to keep going.

The Chief/Cortana arc is the main story of H4’s campaign. It’s the most character-driven Halo story for this reason. The rest is Chief getting entangled in this evil alien awakening with a hatred for humanity, and you having to stop him while trying to get everyone else off Requiem. It’s pretty straightforward. What dots do you think it doesn’t connect?

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2 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

People did care about what the Didactic was doing. He was trying to kill all humans, that’s enough reading to care.

If you're going to spin yarn about good storytelling, you should know that just crafting a world-ending scenario on its own is not enough to make people care. In fact, it's not even the point at all. The experiences of the characters have to mesh directly, metaphorically, and thematically with the larger story. In Halo 4 this could not possibly be further from the truth - the erasure of humanity had piss all to do with Chief and Cortana's relationship or their personal arcs.

5 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

It’s kinda like Sauron: he was this big threatening obstacle you had to overcome, but the character himself wasn’t fully developed. Unless you think LOTR is a bad story?

A "good" story in this context is up for interpretation, but LOTR is far, far more known for its world-building than its emotional content.

7 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

The only unlikeable character was Del Rio, and at least he gave us that “no sir” scene. People generally like Lasky, I’m surprised you say that about him. You could say he could have been replaced by another NPC, but Lasky was a new character. Any new character can be replaced by another character because the former hasn’t been established yet. Cortana in the first game could have been replaced by another AI.

It's not just that Del Rio was unlikable - in his role he's supposed to be unlikable - it's that in not having an actual character motivation that makes him relatable on some front nor serving some kind of realistic/believable counter narrative of the story, he acts as nothing more than an exaggerated cliche and contributes nothing to the story other than to be an aggravating roadblock before the obvious resolution of the plot; he's middle school-tier writing in a character. Lasky, meanwhile, is riding on the material of Forward Unto Dawn...where he was also bland and featureless. On the other hand, Cortana has definable character traits, most notably her acerbic wit, her crash-and-bang brand of optimism in the face of danger, and an occasional glimpse into a more nurturing side. Much more importantly, however, these character traits are entertaining, which is the ultimate point of everything.

17 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

I don’t see what relevance Halsey would have with a more direct appearance. She was the goal to whom Chief and Cortana were aiming, because she could save Cortana, who the player presumably cares about saving. That’s all you needed to incentivize the Chief (and by extension the player) to keep going.

If the game is going to wax poetic about man/machine dualism (read: if that's going to be the ONLY compelling thing about the entire game, including the gameplay), then the single entity who is both the creator of the Spartans and the literal image of Cortana should be front and center.

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Man I really hate it when I write a comment, then I think it over and go back to add something else, but the initial comment was already responded to. You could respond to my last paragraph if you want. The very last cutscene reflects the fact that the Chief/Cortana stuff was the main focus.

8 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

If you're going to spin yarn about good storytelling, you should know that just crafting a world-ending scenario on its own is not enough to make people care. In fact, it's not even the point at all.

I actually agree with you. A world-ending threat can only work if you care about the characters. Lots of players clearly cared about Chief and Cortana (and yes, Lasky), and even the off-screen characters like Halsey or the other Spartans.

10 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

The experiences of the characters have to mesh directly, metaphorically, and thematically with the larger story.

I don't know what stories you watch/read but this is definitely not true. If the experience of the characters' always had to merge with the larger story in every way then it'd come off as very contrived and artificial. Witcher 3 has a larger story of stopping the Wild Hunt but most of the story quests have little or nothing to do with that.

13 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

A "good" story in this context is up for interpretation, but LOTR is far, far more known for its world-building than its emotional content.

I really don't care about world-building if there's no emotional content. LOTR clearly had the latter, despite a lame villain. Like Halo 4.

17 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

It's not just that Del Rio was unlikable - in his role he's supposed to be unlikable - it's that in not having an actual character motivation that makes him relatable on some front nor serving some kind of realistic/believable counter narrative of the story, he acts as nothing more than an exaggerated cliche and contributes nothing to the story other than to be an aggravating roadblock before the obvious resolution of the plot; he's middle school-tier writing in a character. Lasky, meanwhile, is riding on the material of Forward Unto Dawn...where he was also bland and featureless. On the other hand, Cortana has definable character traits, most notably her acerbic wit, her crash-and-bang brand of optimism in the face of danger, and an occasional glimpse into a more nurturing side. Much more importantly, however, these character traits are entertaining, which is the ultimate point of everything.

Lasky doesn't have definable character traits you say?

"Lasky is characterized by his personal moral compass and tends to make decisions based on his own sound judgment. He detests bureaucracy and politics,[53] although several decades of conflict have taken their toll on his formerly iconoclastic attitude and ideals. This has made him somewhat apathetic to underhanded schemes within the UNSC's organization, although there are still lines he is unwilling to cross. Lasky evidently cares about the lives of the soldiers serving under him. He attempted to comfort John-117 after Cortana was killed.[7] When discussing a mole in the UNSC with Petra Janecek, he ordered Spartan Naiya Ray to leave to prevent incriminating her in the future.[34] He even took responsibility for Dr. Halsey's actions during the Requiem campaign, believing that her kidnapping was his fault.[32]" https://www.halopedia.org/Thomas_Lasky#Personality_and_traits

He was also the first character to remind Chief that he isn't just a machine. He's a really likeable character. You could replace Cortana with a different AI who has the exact same personality as her, and we'd all complain that it isn't Cortana.

22 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

If the game is going to wax poetic about man/machine dualism (read: if that's going to be the ONLY compelling thing about the entire game, including the gameplay), then the single entity who is both the creator of the Spartans and the literal image of Cortana should be front and center.

You don't need Halsey to tell a story about Chief reflecting on his own humanity. I don't see the connection there. Chief and Cortana are their own character who are both trying to survive. How would you even implement Halsey without disrupting the slow of the story?

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5 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

I don't know what stories you watch/read but this is definitely not true. If the experience of the characters' always had to merge with the larger story in every way then it'd come off as very contrived and artificial. Witcher 3 has a larger story of stopping the Wild Hunt but most of the story quests have little or nothing to do with that.

If you want a story with a strong, reinforced narrative, you absolutely should do what I mentioned. It is bad form to have the character conflicts and the mechanical story conflict exist wholly separate, unless it somehow plays into some form of irony. Otherwise you get... ... ...Halo 4. I've never read the Witcher books (and the Netflix series was kind of mediocre) so I'll decline to comment.

7 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

I really don't care about world-building if there's no emotional content. LOTR clearly had the latter, despite a lame villain. Like Halo 4.

"Clearly", nothing. There is very little emotional substance or character progress in LOTR other than pure alliances and enmities and I would strongly argue that this is widely recognized. Hell, depending on how you look at it, the only characters that actually developed in the whole dang trilogy were the Ents after Merry and Pippin convinced them to stop avoiding the war. That doesn't mean you can't be sad when Boromir dies, but weighed against basically every other comparable work in existence it's not going to be coming from the relative vibrancy of Boromir and Aragorn's relationship, nor does Legolas and Gimley's reconciliation before the Battle of Pelennor Fields result from an actual, tangible event between the two instead of a simple "welp, here we are" moment. LOTR is famous because it created the fantasy genre as we know it, not because it's a master class in character writing. As it relates to Halo 4, it's literally the opposite - Halo 4's world-building was garbage and the relationship between Chief and Cortana took center stage.

33 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

He's a really likeable character.

RWMzbsU.gif

43 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

You could replace Cortana with a different AI who has the exact same personality as her, and we'd all complain that it isn't Cortana. 

This...doesn't make any sense.

36 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

You don't need Halsey to tell a story about Chief reflecting on his own humanity. I don't see the connection there. Chief and Cortana are their own character who are both trying to survive. How would you even implement Halsey without disrupting the slow of the story?

Then why does Halsey even exist as a character outside of being a lore footnote? She serves no purpose otherwise.

As for how I would implement her, I would start by completely trashing the entire Halo story after Halo 3. We can figure it out then.

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46 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

If you want a story with a strong, reinforced narrative, you absolutely should do what I mentioned. It is bad form to have the character conflicts and the mechanical story conflict exist wholly separate, unless it somehow plays into some form of irony. Otherwise you get... ... ...Halo 4. I've never read the Witcher books (and the Netflix series was kind of mediocre) so I'll decline to comment.

Play Witcher 3, dude. The game, not that gay ass Netflix series. There's a reason it's the most awarded game in history. It'll prove you wrong, I guarantee it. Characters are far more important than plot, and it's why most of the best stories you remember (whether you're reading Tolstoy or playing Mass Effect) are remembered for their characters.

53 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

"Clearly", nothing. There is very little emotional substance or character progress in LOTR other than pure alliances and enmities and I would strongly argue that this is widely recognized. Hell, depending on how you look at it, the only characters that actually developed in the whole dang trilogy were the Ents after Merry and Pippin convinced them to stop avoiding the war. That doesn't mean you can't be sad when Boromir dies, but weighed against basically every other comparable work in existence it's not going to be coming from the relative vibrancy of Boromir and Aragorn's relationship, nor does Legolas and Gimley's reconciliation before the Battle of Pelennor Fields result from an actual, tangible event between the two instead of a simple "welp, here we are" moment. LOTR is famous because it created the fantasy genre as we know it, not because it's a master class in character writing. As it relates to Halo 4, it's literally the opposite - Halo 4's world-building was garbage and the relationship between Chief and Cortana took center stage.

( ͡o ͜ʖ ͡o)    I actually like this. I like it when people express unpopular opinions, even if I might disagree with them.

LOTR is certainly famous for its world-building, but its characters are more memorable than most other fantasy works I've read. If we didn't care about them then we don't care about what happens at Helm's Deep or the Mines of Moria or whatnot, because what's the point otherwise? But people do care. Idk, at this point we're getting too subjective. If you didn't care about the characters then that's fine, but I'd argue that there's plenty of emotional substance between Frodo and Sam, or Aragorn being reluctant to take the crown, or Boromir like you said.

1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

RWMzbsU.gif

Because Lasky in H4 was a very competent, laid-back character who helped Chief. That's what made him likeable. I agree with you that his personality wasn't as strong as Cortana's and Halsey's, but not having a strong personality doesn't necessarily make you a bad character, at least not in my opinion. He worked fine for what he was. I'm just saying, if you have any complaints about H4 they shouldn't be directed at Lasky, they should be directed at Del Rio's refusal to acknowledge the Didact, or the Librarian out-of-place appearance.

1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

This...doesn't make any sense.

Why not? If you replaced Cortana with another AI who nevertheless had her optimism and wit, everyone would complain, because people have an emotional attachment to Cortana. That's why everyone complained about playing as Arbiter in H2, even if his personality was more interesting than Chief's.

1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Then why does Halsey even exist as a character outside of being a lore footnote? She serves no purpose otherwise.

As for how I would implement her, I would start by completely trashing the entire Halo story after Halo 3. We can figure it out then.

Just because a character exists in the world and is mentioned doesn't mean they have to make an appearance. Chief simply remembered that she could fix Cortana, and then the goal is to find her. That's it. Trying to fit her in H4 any other way would make no sense.

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37 minutes ago, SpitFlame said:

tf man

I'm pretty sure that reddit-tier post was a copy-pasta with relevant nouns subbed in. I've seen that post before.

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52 minutes ago, HeX Reapers said:

spitflame more like spitroast

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know

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Come on guys.  We’re above this.  Sorry about that SpitFirst.  

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22 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Dealing some upvotes btw because this is good conversation

Are they lemon-scented?

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