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Halo Infinite Discussion

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@Silos A “slide jump” translates downward momentum into horizontal momentum.  For example, jump off a building onto a ramp.   Crouch right before landing then uncrouch and jump to launch yourself in the direction of the ramp’s downward incline.  

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7 minutes ago, Boyo said:

I think what you need to ask first is, what areas is Halo movement lacking in?  For example, I think Clamber is unneccessary with crouch jump.  If a method of reaching a higher area was absolutely necessary, I feel like a double jump or short duration Jetpack would accomplish that goal in a more fluid, more versatile manner.  I feel like sprint is unnecessary with proper map scaling.  

What movement abilities do you think Halo needs?  

 

Just now, Boyo said:

@Silos A “slide jump” translates downward momentum into horizontal momentum.  For example, jump off a building onto a ramp.   Crouch right before landing then uncrouch and jump to launch yourself in the direction of the ramp’s incline.  

When you asked what areas is Halo movement lacking in, I was struggling to come up with an answer. I was thinking of a replacement for slide jumps because nobody brought it up earlier so I assumed it was unwanted, turns out I just didn't know the correct term for it.

With ways to get higher, and ways to move faster, I agree with you that not much is lacking. The only thing I can think of is in-air control, and it's not necessarily I want it but rather that's the one thing you can't really do. Your double jump or short duration jetpack would be a solution for that. Another option if we only wanted horizontal speed would be a mid-air only "thrust" that takes your current horizontal speed and switches it to whatever direction you're holding the analog stick, I would probably just put it on the jump button and have it only activate in midair; but you could apply the same button logic to either the jetpack or double jump as well "put it on jump, only activate in midair".

I can't think of any abilities we really need though. I'll think on it more and maybe come back. As of right now I agree with you we seem pretty set.

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@Silos You could give Thruster a dedicated button and map Jetpack to “jump while airborne”.  That gives you both horizontal and vertical movement options, like advanced versions of strafing and jumping.  

Making players go faster isn’t the only way to enhance movement through.  A “shortcut” ability could enhance mobility without increasing movement speed.  “Sphere” shrinks and transforms the user’s player model into a small ball that can roll around and jump but not attack.  Because it is significantly smaller than a Spartan, the sphere can access unique paths that Spartans cannot, by traveling through vents and doggy doors.  

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2 hours ago, Silos said:

This is derailing the conversation a bit, but I do think it's worth keeping in mind what skills we're wanting to test in a Halo game. I used to be of the opinion that we should have no indicators on the map and no timer saying when weapons are coming up. I have since changed my stance and while it increases the skill gap not having that information, I'd rather bring more people up to speed with the game quicker and I don't care that much about seeing who is best at staring at the timer in a Halo game.

Do we want an "input heavy" movement system as a skill test in a Halo game? Would we be okay with it if it was only two or three button combos instead of the five or six buttons Halo 5 sometimes required, or do we just want to scrap it completely?

We can keep it in social games and for ranked play upto a certain rank. No timers, though. Instead of some stupid blurb for lore guys to fanboy over, give us actual weapon/powerup/equipment timers in the loading screen. 

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4 hours ago, threeFourthree said:

At high levels of play, H5 isn't start/stop, humpty-dumpty gameplay.  The best players at the game run AND gun.  Like, yeah, at a basic level you can't sprint and shoot at the same time.  But you can also sprint/thrust/slide/jump into a faster-than-sprint momentum and still shoot.  I think when the game is played at a low-level, it can resemble run or gun, start/stop play.  But that's not how it's played at a competitive level.

The mechanics incentivize a quick-collapsing, rotational style of play - Splyce took this to a new level and changed the meta.  If you watch any footage of Splyce circa 2017, it's them absolutely flying at the opponents.  I think it would be pretty hard to objectively argue that Shotzzy's movement/gunfights look more staccato than smooth.

All that being said, H5 is a different style of game than HCE/H2/H3.  There's no denying that.  But I'd also say that the games are more similar than they are different.  It's a fair point that all these movement mechanics take a hell of a lot more inputs than simply using the left stick.  The combos provide more depth, but introduce more complexity. Whether that's a good trade-off is an opinion, not a fact

I see what you're trying to say but it actually is start and stop no matter how you want to swing it. Nobody says stopping and starting is slow just that you have to actively do it over and over. Yes everyone watched splyce fly across the map so fast that as soon as they got your teams spawn's desynced they forced about a billion 1v1s or had numbers all game and it was chaos. I think for people who actually understood the game and complain this is exactly what they didn't like about it compared to older Halos. Too many people try to turn it into some kind of skill based argument when the real problem was enjoyment of the game

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Let's put it this way; If I can't learn to navigate a 100% of a map backwards, including every conceivable skill jump while maintaining 100% control of my weapon, melee and grenade throwing, then I don't give 2 flying fucks what nonexistent "skillgap" it brings to the table. If it sacrifices a significantly larger skill ceiling and lower skill floor in favor for a more needlessly complex game where the skill floor gets shit on, and the ceiling may not even raise an iota, then it's not worth pursuing.

Halo in my eyes was built off the idea of movement and combat being on the same exact plane, and Halo has been significantly lesser for it since its loss. Titanfall was released in 2014, its fad mechanics have come and gone in popularity across the industry, and yet, here we are 6 years later attempting another poor mans version, still riding in its shadow. The industry as whole has finally moved on, and it's high time Halo does too.

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Oh jeez. Lots of posts since my last one. I'm glad to see my ramble sparked some interesting discussion.

@Boyo

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So, a contextual double jump?

That's a good way to word it. And now that you mention double jump I'd be inclined to say that'd be better. However having played a lot of Destiny and at one point having been in the top 2% of DestinyTracker's rating system, I can safely say I'd hate that in a Halo. A bumper jumper hop happy Hunter is absolutely infuriating to fight against. On console, at least. I hear it's a lot easier on PC, but the handling of a gamepad with its look-acceleration intricacies sees to it that the aggressing hop whore has the advantage, especially in close range. Make double jump ubiquitous to everyone? Ohhhhhh boy. Maybe it'd be more tolerable with a higher FoV though.

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...[slide thrust off that downward slope over there and stabilize crouch hover into a clamber to get to his good spot?] That sounds exhausting.

I can see why. I think I'd like it. But I can see why someone would find it tiring.

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Which is it?  Do you want a weapon blocking your screen or not?

If we're assuming the Magnum would also have a 2x magnification, the ADS wouldn't be anymore obstructive than the Magnum zoom in CE. Think of the ADS animation for the Magnums in H5; if you zoom in then the view model hands won't be in the screen much, and moreover the peripheral of your screen isn't darkened out and ergo forcing a reduction of your situational awareness.

 

 

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Do we want an "input heavy" movement system as a skill test in a Halo game?

That's my idea I suppose. I'm not very sure how else Halo as a series can stay interesting while also remaining faithful to its core. It's clear that loadouts and the rest of that junky ilk introduced by Reach and H4 aren't good Halo. But I also don't want the Call of Duty treatment to Halo either, which is the same game reskinned in different colors with the odd addition here and there. I think a reality wherein CE was given the CoD4 treatment, where each following game for so many entries only had superficial and minor changes, would be pretty boring and dull after the third time around. Coincidentally, or maybe not, MW3 was the last CoD I played heavily.

To be clear, though, I don't consider simplicity as one of the core tenants of Halo nor do I much care for how popular a game can be. Some folks here would posit that viewership potential is important for popularity and more simple games are easier to watch and therefore they remain popular for longer lengths of time.

I'd contest that simplicity in Halo was a consequence of the times that the series was born in. Do remember that CE was the first concrete surefire proof that a dual-stick FPS could even be serviceable on a console/gamepad. Now of course simplicity isn't bad or anything...indeed, the original trilogy will always be classic. But it simply isn't inherently good either. The same could be said for complexity as well. The two are merely genre agnostic design philosophies independent of the true heart of Halo; moderate speed aim skill centric arena gameplay.

And simplicity has been done three and a half times already (if you want to count Reach V7). Complexity has been done once - and pretty poorly, too. Complexity has a higher chance of going wrong than simplicity for what I think would be obvious reasons. H5 was poor complexity because its many mechanics stripped players of their offensive capability and that harmed the arena gameplay ethos. The kind of game I'm positing would never strip players of their offense under any circumstance - other than their own inability to perform multiple things at once or in rapid succession. Would this level of complexity not make the game viewer friendly and ergo reduce its popularity? Maybe. But I've never cared much for watching games nor do I care for the existence of an eSports scene within a game. If I can find a match quickly, I just don't care about the rest. It can be the same people every day I play against for all I care. I kind of liked that in games with server browsers.

 

 

But I'm done rambling now because Infinite won't be this kind of game.

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I don't think halo was intentionally made with the movement+combat mindset. More so because that's just how shooters were back then. Its certainly better than the alternative but I think that aspect was more a product of the times than an intentional design philosophy.

In general I think my idea of halo has evolved over time. These days I think you can boil it down to identical spawning, utility weapon concept, interactive sandbox (meaning weapons, vehicles etc), synergetic combat (guns, grenade, melee all being immediately available to you) and that slower, more dance like gunfighting. 

I think generally this allows for a lot of wiggle room (perhaps even for equipment or AAs if it's stretched enough) but also clearly excludes things like sprint (since it can't be squared with the combat philosophy well enough).

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What 343''s obsession with adding things that stop you being able to shoot is I'll never know. 

This stop'n'start gameplay is balls. Sprint is used to get into combat or away from it. So why not remove it so the maps are smaller and we get into combat or away from it quicker without reducing our offensive capabilities?

Worthless addition.

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1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

I don't think halo was intentionally made with the movement+combat mindset. More so because that's just how shooters were back then. Its certainly better than the alternative but I think that aspect was more a product of the times than an intentional design philosophy.

In general I think my idea of halo has evolved over time. These days I think you can boil it down to identical spawning, utility weapon concept, interactive sandbox (meaning weapons, vehicles etc), synergetic combat (guns, grenade, melee all being immediately available to you) and that slower, more dance like gunfighting. 

I think generally this allows for a lot of wiggle room (perhaps even for equipment or AAs if it's stretched enough) but also clearly excludes things like sprint (since it can't be squared with the combat philosophy well enough).

What they intended hardly matters, similar to how they didn't intend the magnum to become a Utility weapon. 

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We don't need spartan abilities to keep what skill gap Halo 5 had. Replace the spartan abilities with a finely tuned physics system and design the maps intentionally with skill jumps in mind, that also allow you to keep your weapon out. 

There. Whatever dumb dilemma we had between new and old movement is gone. 

The thing that I love about Halo when it comes to brainstorming things that can be added to raise the skill gap, is that despite being relatively simple, each individual aspect of the game has so much potential depth to it that's just waiting to be exploited. Especially as far as movement goes, the contemporary situation is entirely the result of a lack of developer creativity and interest in making a skill-based game. 

Is anyone really that excited for base Sprintfinite anyway? I'm hoping that they allow us to host custom modded games on server browsers so that we can actually host cool stuff and have people play. 

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1 hour ago, The Tyco said:

What they intended hardly matters, similar to how they didn't intend the magnum to become a Utility weapon. 

I guess not. Also is that true?

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It was apparently a last second decision by Jason Jones to make the Magnum a 3SK.

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16 minutes ago, Faeyrin said:

It was apparently a last second decision by Jason Jones to make the Magnum a 3SK.

So it was intentional is what you're saying?

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23 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

I guess not. Also is that true?

Yes, CE's magnum just so happened to have all the necessary pieces to make it a centerpiece that balanced out its respective sandbox. Bungie did not intend this, but understood its importance for Halo's sandbox health, which is why every Halo in Bungie's era featured a form of utility weapon.

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5 hours ago, Shekkles said:

What 343''s obsession with adding things that stop you being able to shoot is I'll never know. 

rguQUqG.gif

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I forgot about that. For that entire gif that player is unable to shoot.

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Last Stand:  Halo Edition 

 

When a Promethean Alpha is killed, his “soul” is ejected from his dead body.  The player then maneuvers this head-sized projectile in first person.  

Flying into an enemy “possesses” him, giving the user full control of the target’s actions.  Killing a possessed teammate within the first 7 seconds frees him and kills his possessor.  Once 7 seconds has passed, the target is killed and sent to respawn, transforming his former player model into the Promethean that now inhabits it.  

While in soul form, a single shot from a precision weapon destroys the soul and kills the Promethean (for real this time).  Flying into any object besides an enemy does the same. 

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I still think the power up animation idea is one of the most obnoxious and needless additions to the series. Like, who the fuck looked at that and said, "yeah players will go nuts for that?"

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Making powerups manual pickups in H4 was already stupid as shit and people hated it, of course they had to double down on that bullshit and make it an animation.

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343 just seems to have a massive ego about their decisions, especially with trivial bs like pressing a button to pickup a powerup

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I still remember those times when Frank O'Connor showed up here only to inflame tension. Something about "I don't have to be here, I am a thick skinned Chad" or something like that.

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2 hours ago, Mr Grim said:

I still remember those times when Frank O'Connor showed up here only to inflame tension. Something about "I don't have to be here, I am a thick skinned Chad" or something like that.

My favorite was when he called Saucey "Soupey." 

 

Edit: Also, did he go out of his way to delete his account? 

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On 4/17/2020 at 6:04 PM, Faeyrin said:

But I'm done rambling now because Infinite won't be this kind of game.

:(

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Relevant video that's probably been linked before.

 

 

Like, I'd be cool with the pickup animation if it was automatic and your gun didn't lower therefore removing your ability to shoot. Keep the gun in one hand and the other hand, uh...shoves it into chest. Not really sure what that was about, actually. But I get it. I M M E R S I O N. Woo, great. What would be more immersive is if a hyper lethal super soldier had the coordination of at least a 10 year old and could do multiple things at once. But idk, dual wielding isn't a thing anymore so maybe these IVs really are the equivalent to dollar store SPARTANS and can't fire a gun with one hand even in GEN2 MJOLNIR.

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