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Halo Infinite Discussion

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I think I'd like a Halo with all of the empowering aspects the series has given over the years while cutting down on anything that's disempowering. H5 really empowered the player in some ways but defanged the player in other ways. I think the heart of H5 could be improved into a great game that'd be both modern feeling and skillful.

So here some thoughts. Keep clamber. But don't take away the ability to shoot/grenade/melee during those few frames. The caveat here is that normal jump-ups wouldn't be built with clamber in mind per se. I.E; the windows on Truth. Because even if you retain offense during the animation, it's still a semi distracting visual. Instead, clamber would exist purely as a buff to skilled players using advanced movement mechanics. Sure, little Jimmy can know the good spots to hold on the map, but does he know he can slide thrust off that downward slope over there and stabilize crouch hover into a clamber to get to his good spot? No he doesn't, and now he just got backwhacked. Also give the crouch-jump a noticeable height increase/hitbox decrease. Noticeable enough to almost make it like a second clamber buffer. I.E; maybe normal jump-ups do need a clamber - or a crouch jump instead. And of course have a simple jump be a good one, like a H2 or H3 height. Fuck it! Let's make spring jumps a bit easier to do (and ergo more reliable). That way there could be jumps on a map that would make brainless casuals' heads spin, because the only way to get up to them would be a spring crouch jump into a clamber.

Slide, thrust, stabilize/hover, same deal. Do not take away the player's ability for offense. Maybe even bind hover away from ADS to the D-pad or where ever else.

And speaking of ADS, while I actually prefer the way H5's visuals over earlier games, it should not give any accuracy bonus. Only a zoom and RRR boost. Also, don't reduce movement speed when ADSing. The spread itself would be the same. Hell, why even have spread at all on any guns besides the obvious, like shotgun? Let zoom and aim assistance be the range inhibitor rather than the gun itself because that'd be more empowering. That could pose a problem on PC though, especially if every gun has a quick TTK. Could kill map flow if you had KB/M mapping everyone with assault rifles.

Shoulder charge? No way to really incorporate that as it is in H5 since it depends on sprint and sprint is a pure no-go. But what could be done is, in conjunction with a high FoV and quick movement speed, have a screen effect like in H5 telling you when shoulder charge is ready. It would be ready after a couple seconds of full-speed forward movement. The visual effect would be more subtle and there would be no special animation. It'd just be a more powerful melee. And on the topic of melee, combine both CE and H2's system. This would allow players both more defense and offense in a melee fight. No lunging so players can dodge while on the other hand melee strength varies on context. This could also replace ground pound; a falling player with a heavy weapon like a brute shot can 1HK a player below them with a melee. No control is taken away from the assailant while also giving a more fair window of reaction to the potential victim.

The must needed caveat to all this empowerment would be a great utility weapon and an overall low TTK sandbox. A player who's mastered these mechanics would be tantamount to a coked out orangutan and shitty weapons with high TTKs would make the game look more like competitive capoeira than a shooter. How powerful, I'm not sure. That particular brass tack would just have to be tested in this dream Halo of mine. It should however be a Magnum because it takes up less screen space than a rifle. I guess a higher FoV would mean a rifle wouldn't be blocking 1/4th of the screen space...but the Mangum is just iconic.

Also, nadeable weapons and powerups. Duh. I've also always liked the idea of OS not degrading over time and power weapons being dynamic instead of static. Reward a player for getting an OS but also punish the enemy for not getting it, by forcing them to strip it away themselves instead of letting time decay it. But I understand this can make for slower and boring gameplay - but would it really become too slow when players are as enabled as this? I don't think the team hoarding empty power weapons - ergo effectively lacking their second gun - are going to fare well against coked out orangutans ambushing them. It'd still empower teamplay if done right though because it'd give players that extra added ability to control when the fresh weapon spawns.

 

 

This would build off of H5 and feel like a true and improved successor. But would it ever happen? :laughing:

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The only abilites halo could use would be greater air control and wall bouncing.

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3 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

I think I'd like a Halo with all of the empowering aspects the series has given over the years while cutting down on anything that's disempowering. H5 really empowered the player in some ways but defanged the player in other ways. I think the heart of H5 could be improved into a great game that'd be both modern feeling and skillful.

So here some thoughts. Keep clamber. But don't take away the ability to shoot/grenade/melee during those few frames. The caveat here is that normal jump-ups wouldn't be built with clamber in mind per se. I.E; the windows on Truth. Because even if you retain offense during the animation, it's still a semi distracting visual. Instead, clamber would exist purely as a buff to skilled players using advanced movement mechanics. Sure, little Jimmy can know the good spots to hold on the map, but does he know he can slide thrust off that downward slope over there and stabilize crouch hover into a clamber to get to his good spot? No he doesn't, and now he just got backwhacked. Also give the crouch-jump a noticeable height increase/hitbox decrease. Noticeable enough to almost make it like a second clamber buffer. I.E; maybe normal jump-ups do need a clamber - or a crouch jump instead. And of course have a simple jump be a good one, like a H2 or H3 height. Fuck it! Let's make spring jumps a bit easier to do (and ergo more reliable). That way there could be jumps on a map that would make brainless casuals' heads spin, because the only way to get up to them would be a spring crouch jump into a clamber.

Slide, thrust, stabilize/hover, same deal. Do not take away the player's ability for offense. Maybe even bind hover away from ADS to the D-pad or where ever else.

IF and only IF they were to keep clamber, I'd take @Hard Way's idea of having very certain ledges on maps that can actually be accessed by it. Maybe 1 or 2 per map, clearly demarcated by a texture or geometry or decal or something. 

The bigger problem with clamber is that it significantly reduces the movement skill gap.

Wait! Doesn't Halo 5 have a huge movement skill gap, particularly when it comes to jumps?

It does, but clamber really inhibits and reduces the level of control required to execute what would otherwise be intermediately difficult jumps in other Halo games. 

Take the stump to top mid jump on V8 Guardian, or S1 to S3 on the same map. It takes some skill to pull off these jumps, and adding clamber just trivializes them. Even something as simple as the jump from plat to green on Pit becomes trivially difficult to pull off consistently. It allows people to be sloppy with their movement. 

Not to mention, for what? There's very few things that clamber does that you can't do with traditional movement and a few well placed extrusions on the geometry. The only things that I can remember ShyWay bringing up were being able to climb ledges when your velocity is in a different direction (Truth basement to flag), and juking opponents by faking falls. The first is something that I will concede would be difficult to do with traditional movement, and the latter's really not that skillful. It's like a more obnoxious gandhi-hop. 

Likewise for the rest of the abilities. Sprint is definitely a no-go, thrust has a bad habit of being forgiving with regards to positioning and dominating 1v1 strafes (though I wouldn't mind it being a map powerup or equipment), slide is alright but it'd be janky as fuck if you were to include it in a game with no sprint. I'm open to slide, but I'm not sure how it'd be implemented. 

On top of all this, we have to do this if we go with the intention of keeping the spartan abilities in the game in any form possible. We just don't need them. The game plays fine without them. 

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7 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

Keep clamber.  But don't take away the ability to shoot/grenade/melee during those few frames.

So, a contextual double jump?  

7 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

Sure, little Jimmy can know the good spots to hold on the map, but does he know he can slide thrust off that downward slope over there and stabilize crouch hover into a clamber to get to his good spot? No he doesn't, and now he just got backwhacked.

That sounds exhausting.  

7 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

And speaking of ADS, while I actually prefer the way H5's visuals over earlier games

 

7 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

[The utility weapon] should however be a Magnum because it takes up less screen space than a rifle. 

Which is it?  Do you want a weapon blocking your screen or not?  

7 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

Shoulder charge? No way to really incorporate that as it is in H5 since it depends on sprint and sprint is a pure no-go.

Lunging forward to deal increased damage is already covered by the Energy Sword so there is no need for shoulder charge.  

 

@_Synapse

Abilities that make you lower your weapon don’t work in arena play.  Clamber will never be good for arena halo.  I could see clamber being a Brute base trait, allowing this species to climb on top of objects that Spartans cannot.  By giving different species slightly different base traits, the same map can play completely differently.  

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Making movement smoother and more rewarding without turning everything into a button press would just be nice in general.

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10 hours ago, Mr Grim said:

Making movement smoother and more rewarding without turning everything into a button press would just be nice in general.

H5 at times felt like you were playing a damn instrument with the amount of button presses you would be doing at any given time. It was probably the thing that kept me from playing the game after the first year or so it was out. So much of what made Halo work was its simplicity in movement/controls. 

I have recently been replaying Prey on my One X and I really enjoy some fo the movement in that game. One good example is that it has a stabilize ability, but to activate it you just hold down the jump button. You then have a large amount of control on your descent (you can pretty much strafe in the air) and can use it to extend jumps or slow your fall. It feels very seamless. Added versatility and control in Halo's jumping mechanics would be great, imo, but they don't need to sacrifice simplicity or ease of use to do so. 

I still think something like the Gloo Gun could be cool to experiment with in Halo as well. 

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22 hours ago, Boyo said:

@threeFourthree What would you say to someone who claimed that modern movement in Halo creates humpty-dumpty, start/stop, run or gun gameplay?  Do you prefer this new staccato pacing compared to the smooth flow of classic Halo?  

At high levels of play, H5 isn't start/stop, humpty-dumpty gameplay.  The best players at the game run AND gun.  Like, yeah, at a basic level you can't sprint and shoot at the same time.  But you can also sprint/thrust/slide/jump into a faster-than-sprint momentum and still shoot.  I think when the game is played at a low-level, it can resemble run or gun, start/stop play.  But that's not how it's played at a competitive level.

The mechanics incentivize a quick-collapsing, rotational style of play - Splyce took this to a new level and changed the meta.  If you watch any footage of Splyce circa 2017, it's them absolutely flying at the opponents.  I think it would be pretty hard to objectively argue that Shotzzy's movement/gunfights look more staccato than smooth.

All that being said, H5 is a different style of game than HCE/H2/H3.  There's no denying that.  But I'd also say that the games are more similar than they are different.  It's a fair point that all these movement mechanics take a hell of a lot more inputs than simply using the left stick.  The combos provide more depth, but introduce more complexity. Whether that's a good trade-off is an opinion, not a fact

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@threeFourthree Do you find it tiring to have to continuously input the Konami code to simply traverse the map in H5 or does the mindless busy work satiate an ADHD desire to constantly feel like you are doing something?  

In a game where shooting is the primary method of interacting with the world around you, how do you think pointing your weapon at the floor enhances gameplay?  Is it risk/reward?  Should the ability to move and the ability to attack really be mutually exclusive in a game with Halo’s former pacing?  

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11 minutes ago, Boyo said:

@threeFourthree Do you find it tiring to have to continuously input the Konami code to simply traverse the map in H5 or does the mindless busy work satiate an ADHD desire to constantly feel like you are doing something? 

Nope, don't find it tiring.  I'm tapping buttons not deadlifting 450lbs.  Does BXRing or double shooting in H2 count as inputting the Konami code as well?  I like the movement mechanics because they allow me to outplay people not only through gunplay, but also through movement.  You can do this in any of the Halos, but the biggest skill gap in movement is in H5.

11 minutes ago, Boyo said:

In a game where shooting is the primary method of interacting with the world around you, how do you think pointing your weapon at the floor enhances gameplay?  Is it risk/reward?  Should the ability to move and the ability to attack really be mutually exclusive in a game with Halo’s former pacing?  

Yeah, it is a risk/reward dynamic.  In H5, you're also able to immediately shoot out of sprint and sprint out of shooting, so it's not like this massive chasm between movement and shooting.  It's an instantaneous reaction.

But I also don't prefer the split of movement/shooting.  I'd prefer a momentum system that has a quick take-off (aka good strafe speed) and then a gradual increase to a top movement speed that would introduce the ability for movement combos.  So, just like you, I'd love for a sprint button not to be a thing.  Do I think 343 is actually gonna pull that off? Nope. 

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@threeFourthree When you happen upon a sprinting enemy, and put multiple shots in him before he can return fire, does killing him feel rewarding or does it feel like a hollow victory, defeating a handicapped opponent?  

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38 minutes ago, threeFourthree said:

But I also don't prefer the split of movement/shooting.  I'd prefer a momentum system that has a quick take-off (aka good strafe speed) and then a gradual increase to a top movement speed that would introduce the ability for movement combos.  So, just like you, I'd love for a sprint button not to be a thing.  Do I think 343 is actually gonna pull that off? Nope. 

Interesting ideas, but why two separate player velocities? Why not just one, that all the movement combos can directly be performed from? 

With some well placed ledges, inclines, and very carefully designed player/game physics, you can recreate most of the movement depth of H5 using traditional movement. 

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Just now, threeFourthree said:

@Boyo so you only ask the questions, you don't answer them?

Players typically perform a double shot a few times per match but they move the entire match.  I didn’t feel the need to respond to that false equivalency.  Any other questions?  

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@_Synapse because being able to instantly perform the movement combos from a standstill seems like it would be a bit gimmicky.  My intention was more like in 0.1s you would be moving at 1m/s and in 1s you would be moving at the top speed of 1.2m/s.  So not a huge, sprint-like increase.  More having to build up some momentum before utilizing the combos.  I think it would be less chaotic from a gameplay perspective.  I think to recreate the depth you have to have some sort of momentum mechanic

 

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48 minutes ago, Boyo said:

@threeFourthree When you happen upon a sprinting enemy, and put multiple shots in him before he can return fire, does killing him feel rewarding or does it feel like a hollow victory, defeating a handicapped opponent?  

You mention a false equivalency, but how does this question address what I said?

59 minutes ago, threeFourthree said:

In H5, you're also able to immediately shoot out of sprint and sprint out of shooting, so it's not like this massive chasm between movement and shooting.  It's an instantaneous reaction.

Seems like a disingenuous question attempting to straw-man my argument

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8 minutes ago, threeFourthree said:

@_Synapse because being able to instantly perform the movement combos from a standstill seems like it would be a bit gimmicky.  My intention was more like in 0.1s you would be moving at 1m/s and in 1s you would be moving at the top speed of 1.2m/s.  So not a huge, sprint-like increase.  More having to build up some momentum before utilizing the combos.  I think it would be less chaotic from a gameplay perspective.  I think to recreate the depth you have to have some sort of momentum mechanic

 

I can get on board with 0.1s to maximum velocity, I assumed you meant something like over 3-4s of movement in a direction

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This is derailing the conversation a bit, but I do think it's worth keeping in mind what skills we're wanting to test in a Halo game. I used to be of the opinion that we should have no indicators on the map and no timer saying when weapons are coming up. I have since changed my stance and while it increases the skill gap not having that information, I'd rather bring more people up to speed with the game quicker and I don't care that much about seeing who is best at staring at the timer in a Halo game.

Do we want an "input heavy" movement system as a skill test in a Halo game? Would we be okay with it if it was only two or three button combos instead of the five or six buttons Halo 5 sometimes required, or do we just want to scrap it completely?

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26 minutes ago, Silos said:

Do we want an "input heavy" movement system as a skill test in a Halo game?

Jump, Crouch Jump, and Spring Jump is all we need.

Sprint and Clamber are not needed, but will most likely coincide.

Compromises are foolish.

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56 minutes ago, threeFourthree said:

If players truly can shoot while their weapon model is pointed at the ground then that’s just bad game design in and of itself.  That’s like showing a player holding a pistol but it really shoots rockets, bad design.  

Also, that video is the definition of humpty-dumpty.  

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4 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Jump, Crouch Jump, and Spring Jump is all we need.

Grenade jump, buddy jump, slide jump...

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

Grenade jump, buddy jump, slide jump...

Those require outside tools. You can always Jump, Crouch Jump, and Spring Jump.

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31 minutes ago, Silos said:

This is derailing the conversation a bit, but I do think it's worth keeping in mind what skills we're wanting to test in a Halo game. I used to be of the opinion that we should have no indicators on the map and no timer saying when weapons are coming up. I have since changed my stance and while it increases the skill gap not having that information, I'd rather bring more people up to speed with the game quicker and I don't care that much about seeing who is best at staring at the timer in a Halo game.

Do we want an "input heavy" movement system as a skill test in a Halo game? Would we be okay with it if it was only two or three button combos instead of the five or six buttons Halo 5 sometimes required, or do we just want to scrap it completely?

I think what you need to ask first is, what areas is Halo movement lacking in?  For example, I think Clamber is unneccessary with crouch jump.  If a method of reaching a higher area was absolutely necessary, I feel like a double jump or short duration Jetpack would accomplish that goal in a more fluid, more versatile manner.  I feel like sprint is unnecessary with proper map scaling.  

What movement abilities do you think Halo needs?  

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6 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Grenade jump, buddy jump, slide jump...

Are slide jumps like H5's sprint, slide, jump? I'm fine with losing slide jump if sprint and slide go with it, but assuming those two are in the game I agree with you completely. I'm also a big fan of using explosives to move you, or teammates as a stepping stone. So I'd definitely agree with your list.

10 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Jump, Crouch Jump, and Spring Jump is all we need.

Sprint and Clamber are not needed, but will most likely coincide.

Compromises are foolish.

I always hated spring jumps, but maybe that's just because I suck at them. They've historically created zero issues though in terms of being a "requirement" to play well so I'm fine with them staying in.

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