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Halo Infinite Discussion

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Was watching proximity’s video about should infinite have advanced movement. He talks how h5s movement is so good, and look at it as a game as a whole and forget the halo title. I like this and hate this thought process. Deep down h5 is an amazing game, but we all know it’s not a good halo game. Even casual wanting AR start scrubs on reddit, Twitter, FB, etc say this all the time. This was a phrase I actually heard many times during h4 era, that it’s not a good halo game. It’s amazing how 343 fails to innovate, and keep a halo feel. A title can only do you so much. When I played h5 mythic it felt like a halo game still interestingly enough. One thing we all know removes that good halo feeling is sprint. Gosh I get that 343 wants to make the game feel modern, hells a simple no sprint halo game with a fast bms, and armor ability pick ups, sprint, thrust etc could solve that shit. Or maybe perk pick ups, that let you do clamber. So many things 343 wants to add to halo could easily be solved if they just had them as pick ups. Equipment in halo 3 wasn’t super loved, but it wasn’t hated. It was mostly hated because they lacked balancing. Think. If the h3 regen was the h4 regen where you can’t tank hits it be better. If the bubble shield could be destroyed like it can in reach, it be better. Equipment didn’t mess up map design, the maps weren’t made larger to accommodate them. They were at the end of the day,  weapons. 

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im not gonna hate on his views, but he even mentions why classic id more liked. It’s more consistent, simple etc. In halo I don’t want someone’s movement dictating how good they are at the game, for me I want someone’s strafe and shot to determine those. How they can flank and what not is also good. But sometimes this over excessive playstyle of clamber and lack of predictability is why h5 doesn’t play like halo. One of the best things About Halo is the predictability. 
 

halo needs it’s simplicity back, but at the same time it could use this fast movement that leaves a deep expression. I wouldn’t be against keeping clamber in halo. 

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2 hours ago, Arlong said:

im not gonna hate on his views, but he even mentions why classic id more liked. It’s more consistent, simple etc. In halo I don’t want someone’s movement dictating how good they are at the game, for me I want someone’s strafe and shot to determine those. How they can flank and what not is also good. But sometimes this over excessive playstyle of clamber and lack of predictability is why h5 doesn’t play like halo. One of the best things About Halo is the predictability. 
 

halo needs it’s simplicity back, but at the same time it could use this fast movement that leaves a deep expression. I wouldn’t be against keeping clamber in halo. 

clamber literally does nothing from a gameplay perspective. All jumps you can make with clamber are just jumps you could make in previous titles without clamber. Like if the dev wanted you to jump from midship top red to top mid, they would just have let you jump there. The truth devs wanted people to make the jump so they made it possible. If they didn't, they would have just made top mid a little taller.  or add unclamber-able ledges. 

also halo5 is a sound whore game. there's not much flanking in halo5. Now 1v1s aren't exactly halo's forte, but watching a halo 4 or 5 1v1 is fucking disgusting compared to a halo 1-3 1v1. These kids are SHIMMYING, going slower than default walk speed, because the footsteps are so loud. It's hilariously sad that is what it devolves to. 

 

The only game to not feature advanced movement is CE (ok there's the zyos jump, actually useful grenade jumps on every map (damn just thought about it, all 6 maps cept the player made downrush), and I guess learning the jump timing is part of the movement, but saying that is advanced movement is stretching it at best). Also spring jumps isn't h5 specific. h3's ghost jump is just a better clamber. h2 has tons of momentum jumps and ghost-like jumps, though there's no forge to make maps that make use of these outside of fun montages. The same applies to h3 to a lesser extent. If the only way from s1 to s2 on the pit was a ghost jump, every1 would be ghost jumping it. 

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If clamber stays, I'd make it so any jump from X to Y can be executed by timing your crouch jump properly, but if a lesser skilled player mistimes his crouch then he has a backup to clamber - but now you have to go through the animation, which could put you at a disadvantage. Maybe make the animation just a little bit longer so it's more hurtful to do it.

I'd prefer without clamber entirely, but if it was going to stay that's how I'd have it. But if we are going to keep sprint and/or thruster, then doing it this way could be more challenging since jumps further away would need to be more carefully placed, which would only just increase map size just because "fast".

So yeah, clamber sucks.

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Dude there are many jumps in h5s case that couldn’t be done without clamber. Like there’s things you can clamber upon that sometimes are flat ridiculous. The ghost jumps in h3 aren’t exactly too hard to predict though. For example going bottom blue to top blue from the front. You can’t do this without clamber, and in previous midship’s you couldn’t do so either. There’s still forms of crouch jumping in that game. The foot step sounds are appropriate for 4v4, but definitely not 1v1s.

theres shit that not even 343 expected people to do. Overall though I would prefer h5 mythic to be what infinite is, although with a less easy gun 

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38 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Dude there are many jumps in h5s case that couldn’t be done without clamber. Like there’s things you can clamber upon that sometimes are flat ridiculous. The ghost jumps in h3 aren’t exactly too hard to predict though. For example going bottom blue to top blue from the front. You can’t do this without clamber, and in previous midship’s you couldn’t do so either. There’s still forms of crouch jumping in that game. The foot step sounds are appropriate for 4v4, but definitely not 1v1s.

theres shit that not even 343 expected people to do. Overall though I would prefer h5 mythic to be what infinite is, although with a less easy gun 

re-read what I wrote. The devs knew people could clamber to blue 2 from blue 1. if there was no clamber, they would have just made the 2nd level shorter. it's really that simple. Yeah there's shit devs didn't think you could clamber, the same way there is shit devs didnt think you could ghost jump. I don't crouch jump to get from plat to green on the pit, but you could. People don't clamber for jumps that don't need clamber? excellent discovery. Kinda like the same way people don't crouch jump to get onto shit that doesnt need crouch jumps. 

 

There's nothing you can clamber that can't just be replaced with a ghost jump. I have no qualms against another way to achieve height or make higher jumps. It's just "hold button to not fall off the map" or "hold button to make a jump" shouldn't be the answer. a precise button press release along with a precise jump height (ghost jumping) is way better than simply holding a button down. 

 

the footstep sounds aren't appropriate for 4v4. they aren't appropriate for anything.

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4 hours ago, Riddler said:

clamber literally does nothing from a gameplay perspective. All jumps you can make with clamber are just jumps you could make in previous titles without clamber. 

Disagree. Clamber, even past jumping up to ledges has combat use. I literally just hit a clip where I was able to trade out with a person despite me being down shots because I clambered a specific piece of cover to duck and shoot. Whereas in older Halos I'd just be jumping and hovering in the air for half a second, or sitting behind a shield to jump out in the same way when a nade was tossed to me. The movement skill in being able to juke someone midfight is godly and does so much for gameplay when you can use it right. 

Even so, let's just focus on movement. Halo's physics engine is terribly inconsistent with momentum and jumping. If you hit an incline while landing at a certain speed, you will continue to ramp up in momentum if you keep attempting to move, rather than just hitting the floor and stopping. Or. You can jump to a ledge, barely hit it, get caught on that ledge, and slowly slide down before regaining your movement capabilities. Clamber removes this inconsistency. Movement is good, and can be skillful, but hitting certain jumps or momentum points can literally be outside of your control. God forbid we get into the talk about pixel perfect shit. Where it's mostly guesswork and attempting to time things over consistently doing it. Which is key. Consistency. That. And we know clamber doesn't stop you from attempting skilljumps, as Halo 5 has many that don't require clamber and just require a smooth jump. And you can refine your movement with or without it.

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Everyone that I’ve ever talked to that’s ever played Halo prefers Halo with no sprint. This includes die-hards like us and your casual who plays a few hundred games throughout the games lifespan. The people who 343 have catered to throughout H4 and H5 are the diehard casual...the ones who are still playing the game today. I don’t know any of these people. And guess what, the game is dead.

No one cares about needing to be able to sprint because “I’m a super soldier”. It’s such a poor excuse. 

Gaming is bigger than ever, especially in the competitive and streaming scene. People just want to watch a fun, competitive, fast paced game. Sprint is not needed for that to happen. 

What can “resolve” some of these differences between the two communities is quite simple which has been discussed before.  Map pick ups. It makes everything so much more balanced if it’s on a simple timer that can only be picked up by a few players per match. 
 

Again...everyone that I’ve ever talked to that’s played a little bit of Halo to a lot of Halo has despised it. Please for the love of god can it not be in this upcoming game. I’m simply waiting at this point waiting for some information to see if I’m done with this franchise for good. 

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1 hour ago, JaeTM said:

Everyone that I’ve ever talked to that’s ever played Halo prefers Halo with no sprint. This includes die-hards like us and your casual who plays a few hundred games throughout the games lifespan. The people who 343 have catered to throughout H4 and H5 are the diehard casual...the ones who are still playing the game today. I don’t know any of these people. And guess what, the game is dead.

No one cares about needing to be able to sprint because “I’m a super soldier”. It’s such a poor excuse. 

Gaming is bigger than ever, especially in the competitive and streaming scene. People just want to watch a fun, competitive, fast paced game. Sprint is not needed for that to happen. 

What can “resolve” some of these differences between the two communities is quite simple which has been discussed before.  Map pick ups. It makes everything so much more balanced if it’s on a simple timer that can only be picked up by a few players per match. 
 

Again...everyone that I’ve ever talked to that’s played a little bit of Halo to a lot of Halo has despised it. Please for the love of god can it not be in this upcoming game. I’m simply waiting at this point waiting for some information to see if I’m done with this franchise for good. 

Lotta anecdote here.

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6 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Disagree. Clamber, even past jumping up to ledges has combat use. I literally just hit a clip where I was able to trade out with a person despite me being down shots because I clambered a specific piece of cover to duck and shoot. Whereas in older Halos I'd just be jumping and hovering in the air for half a second, or sitting behind a shield to jump out in the same way when a nade was tossed to me. The movement skill in being able to juke someone midfight is godly and does so much for gameplay when you can use it right

I spent a lot more time testing this than I thought I would.
Unfortunately Xbox only lets you record in 30 frames per second, so I doubled everything, but I still might be off a frame or two on whats actually happening. I can retest these scenarios in about a week when I have my Elgato back.

In Halo 5 I recorded the smallest jump I could find on short notice so that I could enable clamber as soon as possible then mashed the right trigger. I did this because you can shoot/move before the clamber animation ends so this would give me the best approximation of when you have control of your player again.

In Halo 3 its a little more tricky. There is a small landing animation, but you can move pretty much as soon as your character touches the ground. I did the jumps, then booted up theater and took the first frame that I could 100% say that the character moved in the direction I was pressing and not just floating in that direction.

In Halo 3 I recorded Construct. I jumped from Under Sniper (bubble shield) to Sniper. I also did a jump to the smaller ledge on the outside of the platform.

In Halo 5 I recorded Empire. I clambered and did a regular jump on the small ledge in "Blue Yard". The small ledges on the outside of Tower.
I also tested the Window jump from the ledge, I stopped the footage on the same frame right before you were able to fire on the small ledge and added the next frame for the firing animation.

I put the clips in premiere pro and cut them and used the timer in the sequence to get the times.

Halo 3 Small Ledge - 1.14s
Halo 3 Platform - 1.0s
Halo 5 Clamber + Shooting - .58s
Halo 5 Jump - .52s
Halo 5 Window Clamber - 1.06s

Due to Halo 5's low jump height makes sense that on a rather low platform you'd land before you finished the clamber animation enough to have control again. Halo 3's also makes sense because there is just one jump height. It takes longer to regain control on shorter ledges from having to fall.

Is there utility in being able to clamber on shorter ledges, yes. Is there utility in being able to shoot, throw a grenade, use equipment, while jumping, also yes. I personally find that being able to perform a multitude of functions at any given time is highly more valuable than being able to make a small jump slightly faster. Can it save your life, sure, won't say that those frames don't count. Something to note, however, is that Halo 5 is merely just being able to control your player again. This doesn't involve turning around and actually contesting the other player like in your example. In Halo 3 you can contest the entire time on either jump.

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What an incredible niche application of a mechanic with map wide consequences for existing. Like, you'd sacrifice our map design, combat flow, and nearly every other decision a player could make, just so you can cancel a jump height on a rare occasion. Forgive me, but whoopty fucking doo.

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The Grease Gun’s alternate fire can spray ledges down with low friction liquid, causing players to slip and fall when attempting to clamber.  

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Well you see, in this on extremely specific instance clamber is skillful so therefore it is obviously fine. Ignoring the fact that it causes inconsistencies with hitboxes

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2 hours ago, OG Nick said:

Well you see, in this on extremely specific instance clamber is skillful so therefore it is obviously fine. Ignoring the fact that it causes inconsistencies with hitboxes

I was about to point this out. The "skillful clamber" example of juking someone with clamber by peej shooting and repeatedly backing off a ledge and clambering back up is mostly just an exploit that abused the fucked hitboxes. It's like saying sliding into someone's knees with a shotgun proves slide is skillful because they can't realistically shoot you during the slide animation.

I also wouldn't be surprised if clamber also caused some weirdness with the aim assist that the other spartan gimmicks can cause.

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I always hated that abuse of clamber come back down clamber up etc. it’s stuff like that, is why clamber needs to be a little slower. 

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6 hours ago, OG Nick said:

Well you see, in this on extremely specific instance clamber is skillful so therefore it is obviously fine. Ignoring the fact that it causes inconsistencies with hitboxes

Yes, in a bubble, you are correct. But the price is too high for so little of a gain. I can think of several different ways to control jump height.

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2 hours ago, The Tyco said:

Yes, in a bubble, you are correct. But the price is too high for so little of a gain. I can think of several different ways to control jump height.

He’s being facetious.

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14 hours ago, The Tyco said:

What an incredible niche application of a mechanic with map wide consequences for existing. Like, you'd sacrifice our map design, combat flow, and nearly every other decision a player could make, just so you can cancel a jump height on a rare occasion. Forgive me, but whoopty fucking doo.

It's not niche in any high-level game, lol. Players will intentionally use this to their (ironic) advantage quite a bit at high-levels.

But the only thing it does with this implementation (arguably) is tank your jump height. Map height itself is remaining mostly the same, and you could remove clamber and amp up your jump height to be normal in line with other games in the series, and you'd make most, if not every single jump you make in the base game. So, you're not sacrificing height/design. At most you're just making a few specific spots to use it, with vertality remaining the same. Assuming you even intend for it. Like top yellow on Plaza, or the glass jump. No idea if those jumps were intended to be made from yard or anywhere but that car.

Combat flow isn't really changing negatively either. You're basically "resetting" a fight briefly by clambering mid-fight to break an aimlock. It's essentially a combat strongside. Where you break LoS and a hitbox to gain height, and movement control, while being unable to shoot. So you're always in combat, you're just using the environment and movement to stay alive and either pop a trade, or a few extra shots out. It's not like the enemy has to stop shooting you, lol. And it's also not impossible to predict or hit, given we've seen the strat used time and time again in pro matches, or any high level match. You're at a consistent disadvantage and the only thing you can count on is being able to juke a player better than they can shoot you. There's a skill in knowing when and how to do it.

You also simplify it too much. You can say "just cancelling a jump", but consistent movement means a fuckload in game. Especially one where jumps can literally be out of your hands because Halo's physics are again, funky. Former's a fallacy. Latter point delves into what it misses. Consistent movement (or anything) means a lot to me. Even if clamber hypothetically made every single jump in the game 100% easier and had to be used, I would take that over relying on a difficult jump that isn't based on how I move or my skill in movement, but is essentially probability taking its toll. But. Of course, that's its own tangent.

7 hours ago, Basu said:

I was about to point this out. The "skillful clamber" example of juking someone with clamber by peej shooting and repeatedly backing off a ledge and clambering back up is mostly just an exploit that abused the fucked hitboxes. It's like saying sliding into someone's knees with a shotgun proves slide is skillful because they can't realistically shoot you during the slide animation.

I also wouldn't be surprised if clamber also caused some weirdness with the aim assist that the other spartan gimmicks can cause.

It's nothing like slide. Slide's problem weirdly is how you can pop a melee or shot off while an enemy can't as a result of the instant recovery and aim assist fuckery, coupled with your height dropping, and your momentum increasing so drastically in a small span of time. The shotgun slide occurs because you have instant response time and an inherent advantage in movement, relative to a clamber where you need to complete the action before you can fire, when rooted to a spot, while the enemy doesn't have that.

Granted, with that said, so what if it fucks hitboxes. Again, it's not like you can fire mid-clamber and actually screw someone out of a fight given they can time it and just predict the shit out of you while you're moving in between shots. Strongsiding unironically fucks hitboxes more (Shout out to no legit headshots, lmao) but for some reason we like it here despite it being literally relegated to an escape mechanic. Not saying "oh, this is bad, but this is worse, so A isn't bad anymore", don't mistake it, I'm just saying, if our problem is hitbox fuckery, why have we argued strongsiding as a plus but this is too far. 

To be more specific, I think clamber can get away with messing with your hitbox when it doesn't remove the one super quick, viable way to kill someone. The headshot. Strongsiding for example forces you to dump half a mag into someone's back to kill them in games where it's effective. Like Halo 3, or Reach. Because you can't headshot them. You CAN headshot a clambering Spartan in 5, their head's the first thing to pop up, the only thing that changes is how quickly you need to do it. Because they have to face you to do it. And even at that, you're basically moving to expose yourself with a clamber. It's nowhere near as effective as a thrust or slide in breaking your aim. And it isn't purely an escape mechanic.

17 hours ago, Nokt said:

Is there utility in being able to clamber on shorter ledges, yes. Is there utility in being able to shoot, throw a grenade, use equipment, while jumping, also yes. I personally find that being able to perform a multitude of functions at any given time is highly more valuable than being able to make a small jump slightly faster. Can it save your life, sure, won't say that those frames don't count. Something to note, however, is that Halo 5 is merely just being able to control your player again. This doesn't involve turning around and actually contesting the other player like in your example. In Halo 3 you can contest the entire time on either jump.

This bit is ultimately what I care for. But. I would counter this by saying a "multitude of functions" isn't more valuable when the function you have to do them completely screws you in most engagements, and stops you from acting those out. Even in Halo 5, jumping is basically a death sentence on its own, because you gain air time in a super predictable arc. The control you get with clamber in being able to repeek and jump cover consistently allows you to fire while ducking or jumping without having to commit to an auto-death, because you control your movement fully. When you jump, when you "land", when you move back. It's not just about time performing the action. It's about what you're doing with that action. Older game's jump function is an arc. That you just trace because it no speed, hang time, and leaves you unable to properly move in most directions. You're fully committing to an engagement because you lack any means to do anything else, movement wise, even if that movement is only a second. And most of the time you're jump peeking like that, you're gonna die anyway, you just hope to get the bullets out. Bunny hopping isn't a thing in this like for a reason. Conversely, clamber isn't an arc, it's a series of ducks and weaves, using cover as well. You don't need to needlessly commit and auto-die. Because of the control you have in your actions. Ironically enough.

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What’s the difference between a “like” and an “upvote”? They both seem to have the exact same connotation, and when I like a post I never know which to pick. Sorry but this has been bugging me for a while.

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Clamber’s utility should be increased.  Players should be able to cancel their clamber mid way through and wall hang off the ledge, firing at enemies below.  Alternatively, they can do pull ups to pop up and fire shots over top the ledge.  When they’re finally ready to climb up, they shimmy up over the ledge and lay prone on top.  

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56 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

A like is just a much more emotionally and sexually charged upvote.

Lol shut up, a like is for Deez Nuts! 

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45 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Lol shut up, a like is for Deez Nuts! 

I picture you being very loud in person, and interrupting a lot.

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