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Halo Infinite Discussion

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ew loadouts should not exist and if your making weapons the exact same but with different skin and sound then thats just ********. imo each utility could be very different from one another but no loadouts. for example normal gameplay would be a powerful utility similar to halo ce magnum. but for social big team battle a utility start could be something like a halo 3 battle rifle. obviously fix random spread but what i think is good about this weapon is that its still a utility weapon but it allows people more maneuverability on a map and more times to goof around. people could also play team slayer with br starts too if they wanted and it would play much different then magnum starts and could be a unique experience. 

 

 

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How would you feel about 0.9 sec TTK hitscan utility weapon with low auto-aim and bullet magnetism? I'm aware of the existence of face-painting on burst utility, but I'm not completely put off. The thing I liked about the H2 and H3 BR was that you had to land every bullet in each burst perfectly. The skillgap in shooting in these games is immediately noticeable, even in H2 (at higher levels of play). I would reduce the bullet magnetism to complete zero when on an enemy's head. 

If they go with a projectile utility for Infinite, it better be a single-shot weapon with zero spread or bloom. Despite whatever praise I give the H3 BR, average play with it consists of being gaslighted by your connection, your central Asian host, spread, the projectile speed, and whether or not your aim was simply bad. It's laughable when I can immediately tell the night and day difference in host quality based on BR shot registration. 

Also, no 3x scope shenanigans pls. Getting headshot from the back of your basement by a guy on his flag on countdown while strafing is a complete joke. No H2A shenanigans where the auto-aim is broken when scoped in, either. 

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9 hours ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

You could obviously still turn off automatic sidearms for competitive settings, I'm more concerned about solving the issue people have with wanting "weapon diversity". You could do that without compromising balance if the choice literally comes down to "I like the sound of the BR better" since the BR would literally just be a DMR/Light Rifle/Carbine/whatever other crazy utility weapons 343 wants to add, but with different noises and visuals.

Seriously I want to know which games do this? I don’t know any. 

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Working on the GoldPro mod, we quickly realized that it's really hard to get past 12 weapons without having overlaps and unnecessary fluff added. We currently have:

  • Pistol: Utility
  • Assault Rifle: Secondary auto with lower DPS but easier to use
     
  • Plasma Repeater: Stun rifle
  • Plasma Pistol: Shield stripper (plus movement via knockback)
  • DMR: Mid-range hitscan rifle
     
  • Shotgun: Shotgun
  • Concussion: Crowd control
  • Sniper: Long-range
  • Grenade Launcher: Airburst explosive
  • Focus Rifle: Sentinel beam style time-on-target auto
  • Railgun/Laser: Charged shot
     
  • Rockets: Uber explosive weapon

I don't really see what else can be added that is actually meaningful. Pretty much all the weapons added since H2 can be put into these categories and I'd say this list could be trimmed down even further. I've been toying around with a Shock Rifle prototype and it's now working as intended but I don't really see where it would fit in the sandbox.

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7 hours ago, Arlong said:

Seriously I want to know which games do this? I don’t know any. 

Quake Champions. Quake 1 RL, Quake 2 RL, Quake 3 RL.

People aren't idiots, if it's going to be done it has to be sold as skins not 'loadouts'. Also redundancy isn't a big deal so long as the quality of the weapons is good.

 

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

I don't really see what else can be added that is actually meaningful. 

Light Rifle.  

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

Light Rifle.  

Does the same thing as the DMR. Mid-range hitscan support weapon with a 3x zoom.

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3 minutes ago, Basu said:

Does the same thing as the DMR. Mid-range hitscan support weapon with a 3x zoom.

Personally, I would include three weapons with 3x scopes just so the DMR isn’t the most common pick up on every single BTB map.  Like a mini sandbox of 3x scope weapons.  DMR, Needle Rifle, Light Rifle.  Semi, auto, burst/semi.  Now covenant themed maps can have more character with a covenant appropriate weapon on it.  But I suppose making maps look good isn’t something gold pro has tackled yet.  

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27 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Personally, I would include three weapons with 3x scopes just so the DMR isn’t the most common pick up on every single BTB map.  Like a mini sandbox of 3x scope weapons.  DMR, Needle Rifle, Light Rifle.  Semi, auto, burst/semi.  Now covenant themed maps can have more character with a covenant appropriate weapon on it.  But I suppose making maps look good isn’t something gold pro has tackled yet.  

See I wouldn't be opposed to that. Three weapons that share the same niche and have extremely similar stats, but they are placed on different maps.

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

I don't really see what else can be added that is actually meaningful.

Weaker, faster spawning OS via custom, and a Needler.

It ain't Halo without a Needler.

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One area I think automatics can really shine is by having their projectiles do something.  Needles home and supercombine.  Spikes ricochet.  Sentinel Beam deals radiation damage to vehicle occupants.  

One weapon archetype that I don’t think Halo has ever nailed is the Machine Pistol.  Small clip, fast rate of fire, vertical recoil to limit effective range.  The Spiker could fill that role.  Sometimes I feel like all CQC is is one hit kill weapons.  A quick killing, close range automatic could feather the edge of close and medium range combat.  

Then you factor in that these automatic weapons have no scopes, which means they have alt fire modes, and you can really differentiate them.  Needler can home around corners with Homing Beacon.  Spiker can yank an enemy towards you like Scorpion.  Sentinel Beam can fire a Spartan Laser.  

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

I don't really see what else can be added that is actually meaningful. Pretty much all the weapons added since H2 can be put into these categories and I'd say this list could be trimmed down even further. I've been toying around with a Shock Rifle prototype and it's now working as intended but I don't really see where it would fit in the sandbox.

Well, here's an idea I've been toying with, kinda radical but bear with me.

Take the model of the Carbine, or in this case the Needle Rifle, right?  Give it a significantly slower firing rate / killtime compared to the utility BUT make it do 20-33% direct health damage each shot, completely bypassing shields, maybe with damage done to health dependent on bodyshots vs headshots so you're not just going for bodyshots all the time (it wouldn't ever be a one-headshot kill).  So it's good for cover-based attrition or paired with certain weapons like the Sniper which does full shield and half health damage (debuff the enemy team so the Sniper can get easy picks), really good at countering OS users provided you can drag out the fight, but not great in direct combat overall.  And the constant health drain will encourage going for medkits far more often, making more than just shields matter for once.

I think that would be a pretty unique niche.

Though what I can't answer is would it be ultimately annoying having to constantly manage health, would it ultimately promote or harm camping (on one hand you can't stay in one spot if your underlying health is constantly being drained by someone else, on the other hand the design of the weapon promotes more passive pop in and out of cover play), and where exactly would it slot in power-wise?  Would definitely need to be playtested.

What inspired the idea:
1.  Wanting to make unique game systems to Halo more relevant, in this case relationship between shields and health that has always remained largely irrelevant, with shields in most of the games basically just being the health instead of something separate.
2.  Wanting to redesign currently existing, bland weapons as something more meaningful.

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@Ramirez77 A weapon that dealt only health damage, no shield damage, could be an effective pick up to counter OS with but the downside is that teamshot is useless to you because those teamshots are chipping away at his shields while your shots are chipping away at his health.  

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3 hours ago, careh said:

Quake Champions. Quake 1 RL, Quake 2 RL, Quake 3 RL.

People aren't idiots, if it's going to be done it has to be sold as skins not 'loadouts'. Also redundancy isn't a big deal so long as the quality of the weapons is good.

 

In what fashion though? And you just listed games that aren’t too well known anymore man least try listing something more modern so most people could recognize it. So in quake champions you can make another gun look like a different gun based on the skin system?  Dude that’s not even the same thing though? The other utilities all have something different about them. From what I can tell this is simply changing the appearance and nothing else. People also aren’t ******** to know this doesn’t provide the weapon variety they desire. 

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4 hours ago, Basu said:

Working on the GoldPro mod, we quickly realized that it's really hard to get past 12 weapons without having overlaps and unnecessary fluff added. We currently have:

  • Pistol: Utility
  • Assault Rifle: Secondary auto with lower DPS but easier to use
     
  • Plasma Repeater: Stun rifle
  • Plasma Pistol: Shield stripper (plus movement via knockback)
  • DMR: Mid-range hitscan rifle
     
  • Shotgun: Shotgun
  • Concussion: Crowd control
  • Sniper: Long-range
  • Grenade Launcher: Airburst explosive
  • Focus Rifle: Sentinel beam style time-on-target auto
  • Railgun/Laser: Charged shot
     
  • Rockets: Uber explosive weapon

I don't really see what else can be added that is actually meaningful. Pretty much all the weapons added since H2 can be put into these categories and I'd say this list could be trimmed down even further. I've been toying around with a Shock Rifle prototype and it's now working as intended but I don't really see where it would fit in the sandbox.

I still don't think you guys need the dmr when you have the pistol being as good as it is.

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54 minutes ago, Arlong said:

In what fashion though? And you just listed games that aren’t too well known anymore man least try listing something more modern so most people could recognize it. So in quake champions you can make another gun look like a different gun based on the skin system?  Dude that’s not even the same thing though? The other utilities all have something different about them. From what I can tell this is simply changing the appearance and nothing else. People also aren’t ******** to know this doesn’t provide the weapon variety they desire. 

It's exactly what you asked for... a game with guns that use the exact same weapon with different sounds and visuals. If you want the option with reduced 'clutter' of course it should just be skins, if you're pretending there's anything other than that (see loadout options where there's zero difference in the weapon properties) it's disingenuous and will be seen instantly by the community as so. Quake champions also utilities loadouts in the form of character and spawning weapon choices, the latter showing the minutiae of weapons only goes so far in impacting the game.

Obviously there is a lot more stock in the 'utility weapon' of Halo but weapon redundancy is an overplayed non-issue for the most part. The quality and balance of the weapons is really what matters, I'll take the chance on several utility weapons in the hope we find a low AA/BM/kill time option rather than focus on one and have it potentially be shit. The idea of the developer wasting resources which was also a concern is kind of lost as well with the fact they've taken six billion years to release this next game and it SHOULD be a rolling title with proper after release support (incentivised by all that juicy skin skrilla).

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2 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Weaker, faster spawning OS via custom, and a Needler.

It ain't Halo without a Needler.

They have the first thing.

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3 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Weaker, faster spawning OS via custom, and a Needler.

It ain't Halo without a Needler.

We actually have custom setup as single-layer OS. Issue is that by design you can't stack OS and custom and much worse there's also a bug where custom just won't give you more shields if you've picked up OS within the last 45 seconds, even if you lost all of it. Bummer.

As for the Needler, I just don't know what it's supposed to do. Sitri had the idea of making it shoot all needles at once, kinda like a covenant shotgun that homes in on targets. Idk. I like its aesthetic but I don't know what it could add to the sandbox.

2 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

Well, here's an idea I've been toying with, kinda radical but bear with me.

Take the model of the Carbine, or in this case the Needle Rifle, right?  Give it a significantly slower firing rate / killtime compared to the utility BUT make it do 20-33% direct health damage each shot, completely bypassing shields, maybe with damage done to health dependent on bodyshots vs headshots so you're not just going for bodyshots all the time (it wouldn't ever be a one-headshot kill).  So it's good for cover-based attrition or paired with certain weapons like the Sniper which does full shield and half health damage (debuff the enemy team so the Sniper can get easy picks), really good at countering OS users provided you can drag out the fight, but not great in direct combat overall.  And the constant health drain will encourage going for medkits far more often, making more than just shields matter for once. 

I think that would be a pretty unique niche.

Though what I can't answer is would it be ultimately annoying having to constantly manage health, would it ultimately promote or harm camping (on one hand you can't stay in one spot if your underlying health is constantly being drained by someone else, on the other hand the design of the weapon promotes more passive pop in and out of cover play), and where exactly would it slot in power-wise?  Would definitely need to be playtested.

What inspired the idea:
1.  Wanting to make unique game systems to Halo more relevant, in this case relationship between shields and health that has always remained largely irrelevant, with shields in most of the games basically just being the health instead of something separate.
2.  Wanting to redesign currently existing, bland weapons as something more meaningful.

This is actually interesting. There's a flag (checkbox) in Reach's weapons to make them ignore shields but sadly doesn't work. Maybe one day.

Another idea for the NR/Carbine that has been floating around is corrosive damage that leaves the enemy waiting for shields longer. This can actually be setup by making it supercombine in just one shot and also against shields. Sort of pointless in the grand scheme of things, but if the weapon had to be there for lore reasons that's a trait I would go for.

41 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

I still don't think you guys need the dmr when you have the pistol being as good as it is.

I thought so too and I wouldn't mind it being removed, but I was honestly suprised how well it fits. It being hitscan vs the projectile pistol but doing less DPS is a solid niche. Kind of pointless? Maybe. But people do actually use it and it's not a flat upgrade like H5's DMR so it's fine in my book.

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1 hour ago, careh said:

It's exactly what you asked for... a game with guns that use the exact same weapon with different sounds and visuals. If you want the option with reduced 'clutter' of course it should just be skins, if you're pretending there's anything other than that (see loadout options where there's zero difference in the weapon properties) it's disingenuous and will be seen instantly by the community as so. Quake champions also utilities loadouts in the form of character and spawning weapon choices, the latter showing the minutiae of weapons only goes so far in impacting the game.

Obviously there is a lot more stock in the 'utility weapon' of Halo but weapon redundancy is an overplayed non-issue for the most part. The quality and balance of the weapons is really what matters, I'll take the chance on several utility weapons in the hope we find a low AA/BM/kill time option rather than focus on one and have it potentially be shit. The idea of the developer wasting resources which was also a concern is kind of lost as well with the fact they've taken six billion years to release this next game and it SHOULD be a rolling title with proper after release support (incentivised by all that juicy skin skrilla).

I still think you’re missing the point of what people want from the halo video games. They want weapon variety and the niche differed such as rate of fire, range, make all the difference. In quake there, they’re not changing the weapons properties or sounds etc. but a DMR, BR, DMR, Carbine, and LR all have something different which makes them worth picking up(although since h5s TU which nerfed them all very hard then this isn’t the case). Halo is so spoiled by a utility weapon that the thought of upgrades on the map is such a bad thing is kinda ridiculous. People like using weapons on the map and not having the utility be the end all. In h5 I didn’t feel like I was wrong for using my pistol against a guy with a BR. To this day all the Nerfs needed for auto aim nerfs and range, as well as a buff to the pistol to reduce its TTK. Tbh it’s also why we need to go back to projectile shooting. 

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3 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Weaker, faster spawning OS via custom, and a Needler.

It ain't Halo without a Needler.

BuT tHe NeEdLeR iSn'T CoMpeTiTivE 

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29 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I still think you’re missing the point of what people want from the halo video games. They want weapon variety and the niche differed such as rate of fire, range, make all the difference. In quake there, they’re not changing the weapons properties or sounds etc. but a DMR, BR, DMR, Carbine, and LR all have something different which makes them worth picking up

But how does it add "variety" to have a gun that does basically the same thing and is just a RoF/shots to kill variation of it? Is using a Carbine instead of a BR really a significant different that makes people feel empowered?

Quote

(although since h5s TU which nerfed them all very hard then this isn’t the case). Halo is so spoiled by a utility weapon that the thought of upgrades on the map is such a bad thing is kinda ridiculous. People like using weapons on the map and not having the utility be the end all. In h5 I didn’t feel like I was wrong for using my pistol against a guy with a BR. To this day all the Nerfs needed for auto aim nerfs and range, as well as a buff to the pistol to reduce its TTK. Tbh it’s also why we need to go back to projectile shooting.  

I see this all the time lately. "You are just afraid of power items", usually used by AR defenders. Yes there should be items on the map, and yes they should be powerful. But they still need to be balanced. Items that are flat upgrades and could be called "game changers" are usually highly contested and risky to acquire (OS, Camo, Rockets). Other power items are super situational and should be good within their niche, but not outside of it. Weapons like the Shotgun, Sniper and GL are very good in their intended role but if you have that weapon out in the wrong situation you're toast. That's Halo in a nutshell.

Problems arise when items are not contested, take almost no skill to use effectively AND are flat upgrades over the starting weapon. Prime examples of this are the H5 vanilla SMG, Storm Rifle, Carbine and BR. You do not need to earn these weapons and yet you have a massive advantage against spawners.

The utility vs pickup balance is very delicate and it doesn't help that most Halo games fell flat on their face in this regard. If the utility is too strong, you end up with either a "one-gun game" (side note this has never actually happened in Halo outside of 343's piss poor attempts at recreating the CE gameplay in MCC, CEA and H5 throwback). If the utility is too weak you end up with a completely random fuckfest where you might as well be playing Fiesta (vanilla H5). Somewhere in between is where Halo plays best.

25 minutes ago, OG Nick said:

BuT tHe NeEdLeR iSn'T CoMpeTiTivE 

I'm not going full MLG sweat here and just disregarding the weapon because it's purple. I'd love to include more weapons, but I really don't see what the Needler brings to the table. I guess it's role is killing people that lack awareness and aren't paying attention so you can kill them via supercombine before they can turn around?

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12 minutes ago, Basu said:

Is using a Carbine instead of a BR really a significant different that makes people feel empowered?

In conjunction with a crisp strafe and descope?  There absolutely are significant differences between a fast firing semi automatic and a slow firing burst.  

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25 minutes ago, Boyo said:

In conjunction with a crisp strafe and descope?  There absolutely are significant differences between a fast firing semi automatic and a slow firing burst.  

But would there ever be a situation where you would have your BR out and say "Hey, this is the perfect situation for a Carbine" and actually switch to your Carbine? Right now, they're different for the sake of difference without being different enough to actually merit "strategy" (in the loosest sense of the word) around that difference. I think that's the big issue I see–why do we bother having weapons that are just ever so slightly different if that difference doesn't change how people play? Might as well lean into making the weapons in each "category" functionally the same.

I will say though, I think the idea you guys were talking about above with making those categories themed according to the map is way better than the loadout concept I was thinking of. Pretty much the same idea, but avoids the concept of loadouts all together.

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56 minutes ago, Basu said:

 

I'm not going full MLG sweat here and just disregarding the weapon because it's purple. I'd love to include more weapons, but I really don't see what the Needler brings to the table. I guess it's role is killing people that lack awareness and aren't paying attention so you can kill them via supercombine before they can turn around?

I was more poking fun at the sentiment of "if it isn't competitive take it out" that some people hold

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

But how does it add "variety" to have a gun that does basically the same thing and is just a RoF/shots to kill variation of it? Is using a Carbine instead of a BR really a significant different that makes people feel empowered?

Quote

Yes actually the differences may be minuscule but it’s at the end of the day “different”. People enjoy variety for the sake of variety. It’s human nature to want variety. And that variety needs to be something different. A rate of fire, a different way of firing, but different, and that difference needs to be effective combat wise. In call of duty there’s many autos, shot guns, etc but why don’t people choose the most powerful every time? Because of variety. And each gun has something different. Rate of fire, damage, range etc. 

2 hours ago, Basu said:

The utility vs pickup balance is very delicate and it doesn't help that most Halo games fell flat on their face in this regard.

It’s fair to note that the developers bungee nor 343 have ever acknowledged a utility weapon in the game, this is something the competitive community came up with. 
 

let’s look at gold pro settings for a second here and let’s look at the fact everything has a use. Even the DMR. In terms of ttk and power the 3 shot projectile pistol and 4 sk hitscan DMR aren’t too different are they? People want want variety that matters in some way, and if going from a magnum to using a long range dmr then that shouldn’t Be wrong. A persons aim abilities will triumph as long as the pistol is like CE or h5s. The only problem with earlier h5 was the guns had massive auto aim compared to the pistol. 

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