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Halo Infinite Discussion

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13 hours ago, SpitFlame said:

Well sure, it's no Gary's Mod, but I've seen some pretty incredible things come out of the Forge community. It's a huge asset to Halo, and 5 has the best Forge in the series.

I always feel weird about forge because a lot of console Halo players think its great and then if you use actual map editors you realize it just hinders creative people and its something we reallyyyyyy should move past. The only upside it has is for the extremely casual user to plop some boxes down with but when you get beyond that and into really trying to make maps its just not so great at best. Any power user that will take the time to learn to use everything would be better off with real editors in any scenario

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1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

I always feel weird about forge because a lot of console Halo players think its great and then if you use actual map editors you realize it just hiders creative people and its something we reallyyyyyy should move past. The only upside it has is for the extremely casual user to plop some boxes down with but when you get beyond that and into really trying to make maps its just not so great at best. Any power user that will take the time to learn to use everything would be better off with real editors in any scenario

Are map editors doable on console? 

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40 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Are map editors doable on console? 

 

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4 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I always feel weird about forge because a lot of console Halo players think its great and then if you use actual map editors you realize it just hiders creative people and its something we reallyyyyyy should move past. The only upside it has is for the extremely casual user to plop some boxes down with but when you get beyond that and into really trying to make maps its just not so great at best. Any power user that will take the time to learn to use everything would be better off with real editors in any scenario

In that case, Halo's graphics are bad because they're not as good as the latest PC exclusive. The writing isn't as good as Mass Effect. The campaigns, from CE to 5, aren't as good as BioShock. Customization isn't as good as Deus Ex. Multiplayer isn't as skill-based as CS:GO.

You can't put something down by holding it to a higher standard, because there will almost always be a higher standard. Forge is good for what it is, to build arena maps, or infection maps, or new gametypes, of what have you. Halo doesn't need a fullblown map editor.

I'm just saying, if there's anything you should be criticizing Halo 5 for, it's not its Forge mode. There's plenty of other things it should be prioritizing to improve.

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At least on PC they should just released the full map editor and ideally utilize the steam workshop. Forge is good to quickly fix stuff like items/timers or objective placement, but as a full level editor it's needlessly inefficient. So ideally we should have both, especially if they want to be taken seriously as a PC game. On console sure, Forge is still fairly unique and ahead of the curve aside from games like Far Cry and Murder Miners maybe. 

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12 hours ago, Arlong said:

Are map editors doable on console? 

I wouldn't even bother with that. Imo the correct route is just an official editor on PC where you can upload to your own allocated file share with perhaps a fee for more storage space in their cloud to be downloaded onto your xbox or PC later

@SpitFlame Sure you can. Its not like map editors are revolutionary or anything. We just have a super bad one and its normalized because the console population doesn't know any better and its different for them. Its not like I'm comparing it to the single best editor ever and calling it bad. Its just not good in a very broad sense when compared to tools that work. For a comparison its not like I'm complaining we have a normal car and call it shit by comparing it to a super car its more like I'm comparing a go kart to the Toyota parked outside. The kart can be fun to drive around but when I'm really needing to get somewhere I'd prefer a real car. Forge is great for playing around in game and if you try really hard you can make some cool stuff with it but its just a handicap at that point

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13 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Pretty unnecessary statement. Can compare anything that's decent to something that's better in this way to make it sound negative.

Compared to most PC specs my phone is closer to a joke than amazing.

Compared to most mansions my house is closer to a joke than amazing.

Compared to most athletes my 10km time is closer to a joke than amazing.

Just seems like unnecessary negativity to what is a pretty cool and unique console game tool.

You are missing the point here, why make a weird and janky map editor when small indie games have shown that it's not hard to ship something better than that, I bought Reflex Arena for 10 bucks on steam and it has a better level editor than forge despite the studio only having a single programmer and the game barely having any sales compared to Halo.
You act like I make an unfair comparison by mentioning phones vs. PCs and houses vs. mansions but realistically 343 has way more than a single programmer and charges 60 bucks for their game, not 10. Kinda easy to see how it's more fair to compare what we get in Halo Sprintfinite to the regular (and probably smaller than 343) PC title than your examples are. I know big game franchises usually don't do that stuff because people buy anyways but at least Halo doesn't have to fear lower sales handing out a level editor since they don't have a 1 year release cycle like CoD.

Call it unnecessarily negative but I think moving on to better level editors could be quite big for Halo since you would see a lot more user created content that can keep the game relevant, and with a good server browser it can make people stick around rather than moving on to the newest hype.
You could argue for a relatively close to H5 forge that is free with the normal game and easier/more intuitive to use if you are worried about accessability (still need some basic shit like undo/redo and a lot more ofc) and seperate a more advanced level editor with proper terrain tools as a DLC.

But since Halo has always been a game people buy for the name anyways and the percentage of players that actually use forge for more than being silly with friends is very low we will probably not see anything like that.

10 hours ago, SpitFlame said:

In that case, Halo's graphics are bad because they're not as good as the latest PC exclusive. The writing isn't as good as Mass Effect. The campaigns, from CE to 5, aren't as good as BioShock. Customization isn't as good as Deus Ex. Multiplayer isn't as skill-based as CS:GO.

You can't put something down by holding it to a higher standard, because there will almost always be a higher standard. Forge is good for what it is, to build arena maps, or infection maps, or new gametypes, of what have you. Halo doesn't need a fullblown map editor.

I'm just saying, if there's anything you should be criticizing Halo 5 for, it's not its Forge mode. There's plenty of other things it should be prioritizing to improve.

I said if you have a map editor give us a decent map editor, nothing more.
You can drown every criticism in those meme-like lists saying "but other things could also be improved and if you add all of them up it's not realistic anymore", and nobody ever said that. If you think Halo entering the PC realm doesn't justify asking for a better editor than H5 forge then you most likely just don't care or have not used forge / other level editors enough to see how big the gap in between really is.

"You can't put something down by holding it to a higher standard," - Nice logic, I guess we can never criticise anything anymore since we can't compare to other standards. Sure after your listing it might sound reasonable to say that to you but you forget that I was talking about a level editor that already is a feature where you brought up examples nobody asked for and nobody thinks would be realistic.

"Forge is good for what it is, to build arena maps" - Not really, I mean if you only ever used Halo forge H5 is the best I guess BUT pretty much EVERY tool in the industry to build arena maps is better than forge, including tools like trenchbroom 2 for the original Quake which is a game from 1996.
And I would say it's fair to compare a game like Halo to that given that they have more budget and manpower and already subscribed to having a map editor in their game. With your logic I could have said "well Reach forge is already way better than Halo 3 forge, you can build arena maps so it does what it is good for" and just like that H5 forge would have never been a thing.

And trust me I am criticizing Halo 5 for more than just forge, but defending it against better level editors way smaller studios have created seems not that reasonable. I would assume both of you 2 have not actually invested time into making maps, doesn't mean you cannot talk about it but I think it's time to bust out of this "best forge ever" circlejerk and compare to realistic industry standards instead.

@Snipe Three yes.

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Halo is big vidya games. It should feature shit in line with that. 
 

also simply not having features previous games had is not okay. Ce had a map editor. H2 had clanning. H3 u can view films with friends. H3 had 3 total rankings with open api that allowed for stat tracking that has yet to be repeated. 1-4 had LAN.  Mcc is a fucking mess ui wise compared to h2-hr. 
 

while u can cut features and still do well, its also a lot easier to succeed if one doesnt cut features.  

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Alright, well let me play devil's advocate and challenge some of these claims while providing a different perspective (as I copiously speak out of my ass so forgive me in advance).

Forge is actually extremely efficient.

When I download a Forge map, I'm basically only downloading a set of instructions on how to arrange specific pre-existing objects on an existing map, to form a new "map".  I already have all the assets that are needed in order to create the "map", and other than that I'm not installing any new data onto my system.  It' a clever way of providing map variety while keeping file sizes to a minimum.  Look into your Reach folder and you'll notice Asylum, Paradiso, Cage, etc. etc. are only like 30kb, compared to the actual maps which range from 300-500Mb in size.  I'm not redownloading forge world every time I play some radically different variant of it.  I would assume Halo 5 forge map sizes are significantly larger due to the enhanced options, but I doubt they're still anywhere near as large as a custom map from even Halo Ce is, despite still looking many more times detailed..  I would love someone to screen cap their Halo 5 PC Forge folder and prove me right/wrong.

When I download something from a true editor, I'm downloading an actual map file made from scratch, and all the custom geometry and any custom assets (unique models, textures, sounds, etc) that entails. Anything remotely modern looking will be a few hundred megabytes, if not upwards of a gigabyte. Imagine doing that again and again and again.  Yeah it's feasible for games like Halo Ce or equivalent style maps where all the actual maps are literally a tenth the size of Reach's because of the vast difference in level of graphical detail, but we're discussing 2020 games here are we not?  Even Infinity is only 17Mb compared to Reflection in Reach which is 267Mb...and again that's a 2011 game, modern maps are bigger even still.  Hell, BIGASS and COLDSNAP from Custom Edition are still smaller in file size than Reflection is...that is how much difference level of detail makes.

Arena maps are not BTB or Campaign maps.  They're almost all geometrically simple, with the only fine editing being visual details.  And even then there's a lot you can do to make a good looking map in Halo 5 for a fraction of the size.  Forge is entirely adequate for making clones of Midship, Wizard, Pit, etc...at least on a purely functional level.  There's a lot you can do to make good looking forge maps too as seen with Halo 5...obviously not as good looking as maps made from a dedicated editor will ever be, but still acceptable.

And since maps are made consisting solely of objects it's extremely easy to make edits to the map itself.  If I don't like specifics about someone else's map I can open it up and start swiftly making changes, by simply deleting or placing objects and saving that new set of instructions.  I don't need to have actual access to their original .3DS file before it was converted into a .map file and start painstakingly working on them in some dedicated 3D modeling software, then recompiling that as an all new map. Hell even something as simple as moving a weapon or changing it's spawn time would require an all new map file (assuming forge and custom editor don't exist in the same game).  Even if you accept no other argument put forward here you absolutely can not deny this to be the case.

 

...but yes obviously dedicated map making programs are superior from a pure capability standpoint.

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12 minutes ago, Ramirez77 said:

Alright, well let me play devil's advocate and challenge some of these claims while providing a different perspective (as I copiously speak out of my ass so forgive me in advance).

Forge is actually extremely efficient.

When I download a Forge map, I'm basically only downloading a set of instructions on how to arrange specific pre-existing objects on an existing map, to form a new "map".  I already have all the assets that are needed in order to create the "map", and other than that I'm not installing any new data onto my system.  It' a clever way of providing map variety while keeping file sizes to a minimum.  Look into your Reach folder and you'll notice Asylum, Paradiso, Cage, etc. etc. are only like 30kb, compared to the actual maps which range from 300-500Mb in size.  I'm not redownloading forge world every time I play some radically different variant of it.  I would assume Halo 5 forge map sizes are significantly larger due to the enhanced options, but I doubt they're still anywhere near as large as a custom map from even Halo Ce is, despite still looking many more times detailed..  I would love someone to screen cap their Halo 5 PC Forge folder and prove me right/wrong.

When I download something from a true editor, I'm downloading an actual map file made from scratch, and all the custom geometry and any custom assets (unique models, textures, sounds, etc) that entails. Anything remotely modern looking will be a few hundred megabytes, if not upwards of a gigabyte. Imagine doing that again and again and again.  Yeah it's feasible for games like Halo Ce or equivalent style maps where all the actual maps are literally a tenth the size of Reach's because of the vast difference in level of graphical detail, but we're discussing 2020 games here are we not?  Even Infinity is only 17Mb compared to Reflection in Reach which is 267Mb...and again that's a 2011 game, modern maps are bigger even still.  Hell, BIGASS and COLDSNAP from Custom Edition are still smaller in file size than Reflection is...that is how much difference level of detail makes.

Arena maps are not BTB or Campaign maps.  They're almost all geometrically simple, with the only fine editing being visual details.  And even then there's a lot you can do to make a good looking map in Halo 5 for a fraction of the size.  Forge is entirely adequate for making clones of Midship, Wizard, Pit, etc...at least on a purely functional level.  There's a lot you can do to make good looking forge maps too as seen with Halo 5...obviously not as good looking as maps made from a dedicated editor will ever be, but still acceptable.

And since maps are made consisting solely of objects it's extremely easy to make edits to the map itself.  If I don't like specifics about someone else's map I can open it up and start swiftly making changes, by simply deleting or placing objects and saving that new set of instructions.  I don't need to have actual access to their original .3DS file before it was converted into a .map file and start painstakingly working on them in some dedicated 3D modeling software, then recompiling that as an all new map. Hell even something as simple as moving a weapon or changing it's spawn time would require an all new map file (assuming forge and custom editor don't exist in the same game).  Even if you accept no other argument put forward here you absolutely can not deny this to be the case.

Of course forge maps are easier to download and play. I think that is a bonus but it comes with the drawback of not actually getting the best maps we could have. What we're talking about is dev quality competitive maps to download seasonally and I don't think that's a big ask for most people with functional internet. 343 is usually (very) slow to implement good/new maps into actual MM so this would on similar timelines to releasing their own map packs into MM and not some people randomly cruising through having to download 4 maps a day with 3Mb down and hating the game for it

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5 minutes ago, Ramirez77 said:

Alright, well let me play devil's advocate and challenge some of these claims while providing a different perspective (as I copiously speak out of my ass so forgive me in advance).

Forge is actually extremely efficient.

When I download a Forge map, I'm basically only downloading a set of instructions on how to arrange specific pre-existing objects on an existing map, to form a new "map".  I already have all the assets that are needed in order to create the "map", and other than that I'm not installing any new data onto my system.  It' a clever way of providing map variety while keeping file sizes to a minimum.  Look into your Reach folder and you'll notice Asylum, Paradiso, Cage, etc. etc. are only like 30kb, compared to the actual maps which range from 300-500Mb in size.  I'm not redownloading forge world every time I play some radically different variant of it.  I would assume Halo 5 forge map sizes are significantly larger due to the enhanced options, but I doubt they're still anywhere near as large as a custom map from even Halo Ce is, despite still looking many more times detailed..  I would love someone to screen cap their Halo 5 PC Forge folder and prove me right/wrong.

When I download something from a true editor, I'm downloading an actual map file made from scratch, and all the custom geometry and any custom assets (unique models, textures, sounds, etc) that entails. Anything remotely modern looking will be a few hundred megabytes, if not upwards of a gigabyte. Imagine doing that again and again and again.  Yeah it's feasible for games like Halo Ce or equivalent style maps where all the actual maps are literally a tenth the size of Reach's because of the vast difference in level of graphical detail, but we're discussing 2020 games here are we not?  Even Infinity is only 17Mb compared to Reflection in Reach which is 267Mb...and again that's a 2011 game, modern maps are bigger even still.  Hell, BIGASS and COLDSNAP from Custom Edition are still smaller in file size than Reflection is...that is how much difference level of detail makes.

Arena maps are not BTB or Campaign maps.  They're almost all geometrically simple, with the only fine editing being visual details.  And even then there's a lot you can do to make a good looking map in Halo 5 for a fraction of the size.  Forge is entirely adequate for making clones of Midship, Wizard, Pit, etc...at least on a purely functional level.  There's a lot you can do to make good looking forge maps too as seen with Halo 5...obviously not as good looking as maps made from a dedicated editor will ever be, but still acceptable.

And since maps are made consisting solely of objects it's extremely easy to make edits to the map itself.  If I don't like specifics about someone else's map I can open it up and start swiftly making changes, by simply deleting or placing objects and saving that new set of instructions.  I don't need to have actual access to their original .3DS file before it was converted into a .map file and start painstakingly working on them in some dedicated 3D modeling software, then recompiling that as an all new map. Hell even something as simple as moving a weapon or changing it's spawn time would require an all new map file (assuming forge and custom editor don't exist in the same game).  Even if you accept no other argument put forward here you absolutely can not deny this to be the case.

You're spot on.  Forge's biggest strength is that you're just downloading a set of numbers that are telling you where assets are located on the canvas on an XYZ and rotational coordinate, and whatever attributes are assigned to them.  Kilobytes of data.

 

To push this even further, there's no functional difference between that and a full editor beyond specific tools, and the bigger problem - limitations.  If Forge removed the object limit and let forgers determine where they want their own cutoff point to be and had simple scaling tools (which would cost effectively nothing on file size since again, you're just adding a few digits to the file to remember the scaling of the object) Forge would be on par with anything short of a full editor like Unreal Engine. And the lighting engine in Halo 5 blows chunks, but I imagine that'll be addressed. 

-Basic performant tools (culling zones, LOD settings per object)

-Remove arbitrary object limit

-Object scaling

-Not dogshit textures like Halo 5

 

 

Once those are implemented, which are really simple requests tbh, there's no reason that a forge map should look anything short of a dev map in the right hands.  Honestly. And so long as all the assets in forge are included in every copy of Infinite the file size is still in the KB territory.

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1 hour ago, Ramirez77 said:

Alright, well let me play devil's advocate and challenge some of these claims while providing a different perspective (as I copiously speak out of my ass so forgive me in advance).

Forge is actually extremely efficient.

When I download a Forge map, I'm basically only downloading a set of instructions on how to arrange specific pre-existing objects on an existing map, to form a new "map".  I already have all the assets that are needed in order to create the "map", and other than that I'm not installing any new data onto my system.  It' a clever way of providing map variety while keeping file sizes to a minimum.  Look into your Reach folder and you'll notice Asylum, Paradiso, Cage, etc. etc. are only like 30kb, compared to the actual maps which range from 300-500Mb in size.  I'm not redownloading forge world every time I play some radically different variant of it.  I would assume Halo 5 forge map sizes are significantly larger due to the enhanced options, but I doubt they're still anywhere near as large as a custom map from even Halo Ce is, despite still looking many more times detailed..  I would love someone to screen cap their Halo 5 PC Forge folder and prove me right/wrong.

When I download something from a true editor, I'm downloading an actual map file made from scratch, and all the custom geometry and any custom assets (unique models, textures, sounds, etc) that entails. Anything remotely modern looking will be a few hundred megabytes, if not upwards of a gigabyte. Imagine doing that again and again and again.  Yeah it's feasible for games like Halo Ce or equivalent style maps where all the actual maps are literally a tenth the size of Reach's because of the vast difference in level of graphical detail, but we're discussing 2020 games here are we not?  Even Infinity is only 17Mb compared to Reflection in Reach which is 267Mb...and again that's a 2011 game, modern maps are bigger even still.  Hell, BIGASS and COLDSNAP from Custom Edition are still smaller in file size than Reflection is...that is how much difference level of detail makes.

Arena maps are not BTB or Campaign maps.  They're almost all geometrically simple, with the only fine editing being visual details.  And even then there's a lot you can do to make a good looking map in Halo 5 for a fraction of the size.  Forge is entirely adequate for making clones of Midship, Wizard, Pit, etc...at least on a purely functional level.  There's a lot you can do to make good looking forge maps too as seen with Halo 5...obviously not as good looking as maps made from a dedicated editor will ever be, but still acceptable.

And since maps are made consisting solely of objects it's extremely easy to make edits to the map itself.  If I don't like specifics about someone else's map I can open it up and start swiftly making changes, by simply deleting or placing objects and saving that new set of instructions.  I don't need to have actual access to their original .3DS file before it was converted into a .map file and start painstakingly working on them in some dedicated 3D modeling software, then recompiling that as an all new map. Hell even something as simple as moving a weapon or changing it's spawn time would require an all new map file (assuming forge and custom editor don't exist in the same game).  Even if you accept no other argument put forward here you absolutely can not deny this to be the case.

 

...but yes obviously dedicated map making programs are superior from a pure capability standpoint.

Extremely efficient in making small files.
Extremely inefficient in making maps.

I would prefer something decent and just downloading a few hundred Mb from the workshop every now and then over being able to celebrate that map versions are 30kb, it's 2020 and you can buy a 1Tb SSD for 100 bucks. Your argument with asset locations can still apply tho, nobody said a full editor cannot make use of assets available to the client already and honestly having more and more assets tied to the base game means you are giving up that space anyways since you downloaded them even if no map uses them at all.

Honestly with an editor like the one in Reflex Arena it's way easier to change things than with forge since you can no clip through walls, have group select and the brushes are just 3D objects everybody can edit. You don't seem to realize that some editors being inconvenient means all full editors have to be more inconvenient than forge - I would say it's the other way around even.
You can easily have a tag system to have n weapon layouts saved on the same map file, even slightly different geometry can be loaded based on the gametype, all this stuff is fairly basic and not something that is somehow exclusive to forge.
The editors you might be thinking about are used by game devs that finish maps and know they don't have to be easy to modify later on, but there is no reason to believe you cannot just make an editor that has easy modifying etc. build into it...

1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

You're spot on.  Forge's biggest strength is that you're just downloading a set of numbers that are telling you where assets are located on the canvas on an XYZ and rotational coordinate, and whatever attributes are assigned to them.  Kilobytes of data.

 

To push this even further, there's no functional difference between that and a full editor beyond specific tools, and the bigger problem - limitations.  If Forge removed the object limit and let forgers determine where they want their own cutoff point to be and had simple scaling tools (which would cost effectively nothing on file size since again, you're just adding a few digits to the file to remember the scaling of the object) Forge would be on par with anything short of a full editor like Unreal Engine. And the lighting engine in Halo 5 blows chunks, but I imagine that'll be addressed. 

-Basic performant tools (culling zones, LOD settings per object)

-Remove arbitrary object limit

-Object scaling

-Not dogshit textures like Halo 5

 

 

Once those are implemented, which are really simple requests tbh, there's no reason that a forge map should look anything short of a dev map in the right hands.  Honestly. And so long as all the assets in forge are included in every copy of Infinite the file size is still in the KB territory.

What else than a set of numbers would any download be?
Again keeping it down to kilobytes shouldn't be the main focus in a 2020 shooter that probably takes up around 100 Gb on your hard drive anyways. If megabyte sized maps make you struggle you probably should have invested into another hard drive and not a Halo game.

And while UE is a good editor I think that shouldn't be the gold standard to compare to for forge. Yeah give us scaling, undo/redo, no clip, no object limitations etc. but something like the ability to spawn custom brushes and being able to texture them would be way better than having to tetris any structure from predetermined blocks. In UE that is possible but would mean it's hard to edit for other people afterwards, or maybe not that intuitive I should say.
Being able to jump in and out of the game is def good to quickly test what you are doing but sadly H5 didn't allow that with customized movement values which made it a total pain in the ass to test maps designed about non default movement physics.

I think they should work towards something that is a compromise between accessable and powerful while keeping things easy to modify for anybody that would open the map in the editor again. It might need some more changes than you all are suggesting but there is no reason it should be out of reach for a studio their size.

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57 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Extremely efficient in making small files.
Extremely inefficient in making maps.

I would prefer something decent and just downloading a few hundred Mb from the workshop every now and then over being able to celebrate that map versions are 30kb, it's 2020 and you can buy a 1Tb SSD for 100 bucks. Your argument with asset locations can still apply tho, nobody said a full editor cannot make use of assets available to the client already and honestly having more and more assets tied to the base game means you are giving up that space anyways since you downloaded them even if no map uses them at all.

Honestly with an editor like the one in Reflex Arena it's way easier to change things than with forge since you can no clip through walls, have group select and the brushes are just 3D objects everybody can edit. You don't seem to realize that some editors being inconvenient means all full editors have to be more inconvenient than forge - I would say it's the other way around even.
You can easily have a tag system to have n weapon layouts saved on the same map file, even slightly different geometry can be loaded based on the gametype, all this stuff is fairly basic and not something that is somehow exclusive to forge.
The editors you might be thinking about are used by game devs that finish maps and know they don't have to be easy to modify later on, but there is no reason to believe you cannot just make an editor that has easy modifying etc. build into it...

What else than a set of numbers would any download be?
Again keeping it down to kilobytes shouldn't be the main focus in a 2020 shooter that probably takes up around 100 Gb on your hard drive anyways. If megabyte sized maps make you struggle you probably should have invested into another hard drive and not a Halo game.

And while UE is a good editor I think that shouldn't be the gold standard to compare to for forge. Yeah give us scaling, undo/redo, no clip, no object limitations etc. but something like the ability to spawn custom brushes and being able to texture them would be way better than having to tetris any structure from predetermined blocks. In UE that is possible but would mean it's hard to edit for other people afterwards, or maybe not that intuitive I should say.
Being able to jump in and out of the game is def good to quickly test what you are doing but sadly H5 didn't allow that with customized movement values which made it a total pain in the ass to test maps designed about non default movement physics.

I think they should work towards something that is a compromise between accessable and powerful while keeping things easy to modify for anybody that would open the map in the editor again. It might need some more changes than you all are suggesting but there is no reason it should be out of reach for a studio their size.

Well, in most other scenarios you're downloading audio files, textures, materials, customs assets, etc. I understand that those are broken down into numbers but I think you know what I'm getting at, Forge is really light.  Hit a button, hit start and the map starts.  Custom BSP would be nice I suppose but there's nothing that can be accomplished there that can't just as easily be done by scaling a primitive block if we had good scaling options. Perhaps a subtraction tool?  There's a lot I can ask for but I think the ones I laid out earlier are top priority. 

 

I've wanted for Forge to split itself for a while now - a Forge lite for new people to jump in and get their feet wet building zombie towers and split-screen forging with their friends throwing kill balls at each other.  There's value to that.

And then an advanced editor that allows everyone else to do what they'd like without cutting off all newcomers with an insane learning curve.

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Well, in most other scenarios you're downloading audio files, textures, materials, customs assets, etc. I understand that those are broken down into numbers but I think you know what I'm getting at, Forge is really light.  Hit a button, hit start and the map starts.  Custom BSP would be nice I suppose but there's nothing that can be accomplished there that can't just as easily be done by scaling a primitive block if we had good scaling options. Perhaps a subtraction tool?  There's a lot I can ask for but I think the ones I laid out earlier are top priority. 

 

I've wanted for Forge to split itself for a while now - a Forge lite for new people to jump in and get their feet wet building zombie towers and split-screen forging with their friends throwing kill balls at each other.  There's value to that.

And then an advanced editor that allows everyone else to do what they'd like without cutting off all newcomers with an insane learning curve.

A map editor is like building a new map right? Basically with this someone could make a 1:1 guardian or construct remake. We’ve seen these done in halo forge from reach-5(5 obviously being the most accurate) but an editor is like literally making a brand new map? I could be wrong. Im just curious. 

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17 hours ago, SpitFlame said:

The campaigns, from CE to 5, aren't as good as BioShock

From 2 to 5, maybe. CE had the best campaign of any FPS. It's staggering how well the gameplay flows in CE. It beats out 99% of games, period. Unless you wrongly think that plot > gameplay

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2 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

Well, in most other scenarios you're downloading audio files, textures, materials, customs assets, etc. I understand that those are broken down into numbers but I think you know what I'm getting at, Forge is really light.  Hit a button, hit start and the map starts.  Custom BSP would be nice I suppose but there's nothing that can be accomplished there that can't just as easily be done by scaling a primitive block if we had good scaling options. Perhaps a subtraction tool?  There's a lot I can ask for but I think the ones I laid out earlier are top priority. 

 

I've wanted for Forge to split itself for a while now - a Forge lite for new people to jump in and get their feet wet building zombie towers and split-screen forging with their friends throwing kill balls at each other.  There's value to that.

And then an advanced editor that allows everyone else to do what they'd like without cutting off all newcomers with an insane learning curve.

Yeah for me I just want an editor for PC. I'm all for leaving forge as is and improving it for people. I've really wanted to re purpose a lot of how forge functions on console to make a BR where one player is the dedicated builder as a monitor for the team since like 2008 because I think an actual game mode is hidden in there. I still can't believe they made fortnite and it blew up like it did after 17 y/o me was sitting there wanting that game in Halo

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3 hours ago, _Synapse said:

From 2 to 5, maybe. CE had the best campaign of any FPS. It's staggering how well the gameplay flows in CE. It beats out 99% of games, period. Unless you wrongly think that plot > gameplay

The first 6 missions of CE are incredible. The rest are rubbish. The Library makes my brain bleed and the rest are just the first 5 missions with extra steps (minus Silent Cartographer)

Side note: Silent Cartographer is my favourite Halo mission of all time. From the initial beach invasion to the quiet, tense corridor clearing. 15/10.

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13 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

The first 6 missions of CE are incredible. The rest are rubbish. The Library makes my brain bleed and the rest are just the first 5 missions with extra steps (minus Silent Cartographer)

Side note: Silent Cartographer is my favourite of every single Halo mission. From the initial beach invasion to the quiet, tense corridor clearing. 15/10.

Silent Cartographer is probably my favorite Halo mission overall.

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3 hours ago, Arlong said:

A map editor is like building a new map right? Basically with this someone could make a 1:1 guardian or construct remake. We’ve seen these done in halo forge from reach-5(5 obviously being the most accurate) but an editor is like literally making a brand new map? I could be wrong. Im just curious. 

Forge is a map editor, it's just the general term for it.  Same thing. 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Forge is a map editor, it's just the general term for it.  Same thing. 

Oh it is? Then what’s the big deal here? Everyone keeps acting like a map editor is so special? I’ve never been a forger, I’ve seen your shit in h5 and it’s impressive, but at the same time what could a map editor have over forge? Textures, sounds? Like something has to be different right? 

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

Oh it is? Then what’s the big deal here? Everyone keeps acting like a map editor is so special? I’ve never been a forger, I’ve seen your shit in h5 and it’s impressive, but at the same time what could a map editor have over forge? Textures, sounds? Like something has to be different right? 

Well every editor is different. They have different features, different limitations, some are just outright better than others. Forge is a map editor with a good general tool set and exceptional and rapid iteration but it has a LOT of limitations. Object count at 1600 (for reference my last dev maps in unreal were around 30,000 objects), no performance tools to make sure the maps run well, we "have textures" but only 5 of them and they're hideous and you can't scale them. We have blend textures but only 2 of them really and they look like crap. We don't have water. We have time of day control but only in the form of like 3 predetermined sun positions per canvas, we can't actually choose where the light source is located so you have to build around it. The only reason my forge maps look the way they do is because I use a shit ton of tricks to make forge look like that, most maps as you've seen do not. We have scripting but only 26 "channels". We don't have water volumes. We have very few (1) weather options in rain and it's just a 2d screen effect. You can't create or port your own sound fx or assets in forge, which keeps the file size low but leads to a lot of limitations. Limitations basically. But the general tool is there and the ground work is established for promise. Forge is really good at hitting broad strokes. Anything too ambitious or specific and you're screwed. 

 

Far Crys editor is incredibly powerful. Has terrain sculpting, full time of day and weather and wind control. HUGE object limits, brushes that can paint entire forests and foilage in a single stroke. The controls and assets in it kinda suck for doing stuff that's great in Halo, being very specific geometry and shapes. But that's honestly easy to address if they wanted to. It's very powerful. 

 

Professional mits like Unreal and Unity have no limits as they're actual dev kits. You can make your own tools as you need if you have a programmer. 

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1 hour ago, MultiLockOn said:

Well every editor is different. They have different features, different limitations, some are just outright better than others. Forge is a map editor with a good general tool set and exceptional and rapid iteration but it has a LOT of limitations. Object count at 1600 (for reference my last dev maps in unreal were around 30,000 objects), no performance tools to make sure the maps run well, we "have textures" but only 5 of them and they're hideous and you can't scale them. We have blend textures but only 2 of them really and they look like crap. We don't have water. We have time of day control but only in the form of like 3 predetermined sun positions per canvas, we can't actually choose where the light source is located so you have to build around it. The only reason my forge maps look the way they do is because I use a shit ton of tricks to make forge look like that, most maps as you've seen do not. We have scripting but only 26 "channels". We don't have water volumes. We have very few (1) weather options in rain and it's just a 2d screen effect. You can't create or port your own sound fx or assets in forge, which keeps the file size low but leads to a lot of limitations. Limitations basically. But the general tool is there and the ground work is established for promise. Forge is really good at hitting broad strokes. Anything too ambitious or specific and you're screwed. 

 

Far Crys editor is incredibly powerful. Has terrain sculpting, full time of day and weather and wind control. HUGE object limits, brushes that can paint entire forests and foilage in a single stroke. The controls and assets in it kinda suck for doing stuff that's great in Halo, being very specific geometry and shapes. But that's honestly easy to address if they wanted to. It's very powerful. 

 

Professional mits like Unreal and Unity have no limits as they're actual dev kits. You can make your own tools as you need if you have a programmer. 

Hmm ok that’s pretty neat. A dev kit is basically making an actual map Right.

off topic but I really think 343 should of just forked over money to epic and used UE4 to make halo infinite. That engine from what I’ve heard is very good and most programmers love it. Most games I’ve played that use that engine have great performance. And if 343 really did create a new engine then that’s basically time wasted if you ask me.

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22 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Hmm ok that’s pretty neat. A dev kit is basically making an actual map Right.

off topic but I really think 343 should of just forked over money to epic and used UE4 to make halo infinite. That engine from what I’ve heard is very good and most programmers love it. Most games I’ve played that use that engine have great performance. And if 343 really did create a new engine then that’s basically time wasted if you ask me.

Unreal Engine is definitely a solid engine with a lot of advantages, especially if you're already starting.  There's some caveats though.

First of all, using Unreal dictates Microsoft would have to share royalties with Epic.  Standard comes out to 30% of profits I believe for using their engine and selling it on the Epic store but more recently Epic has basically all but mitigated that cost in effort to get dev's to work with them over steam (who takes GLOBS of money from developers for their cut, mind you).  Bigger studios like Microsoft can easily work out publishing deals to mitigate this but ultimately it's still more expensive than the cost of free, which is what they pay for using their own tools.

 

Also there's a lot of advantages to using the tools that have been home grown for the franchise you're working on.  Lots of engines use Havok for physics (including Unreal) but replicating exactly what they've done to it over the past two decades would not be easy, and physics are ultimately one of the biggest factors in making Halo feel like it does.  The lighting engine is also pretty unique and most likely due to Bungie's precedent, Halo still carries a pretty soft color palette and distinct look that no other game can match.  Same goes for Destiny.  Bungie's tools are notoriously awful and slow, but ya know what - they're theirs and they're completely built to deliver exactly what makes Bungie games special.  Even if you took every asset in Destiny and shoved it into Unreal Engine you'd have a difficult time making it look like Destiny, because the way they've built their lighting is very specific to their own style.  Same goes for Halo's physics, it's lighting, it's performance.  There's not many games out there that can come close to Halo's physics but also deliver them very efficiently and network them.  You know how difficult something as simple as an elevator can be if you don't have the tools built?  I wanted one built in the last game I worked on (Unreal Engine 4 mind you).  The first iteration wasn't synced so players who joined late would see the elevator in completely different spots.   The second iteration would crash the game if you stood under it when it landed.  The third iteration looked like a slide show because the rate it synced to the network was too slow.  The fourth iteration would freeze in place if you stood under it and teleporter to the start.  The fifth iteration would disappear if someone used emotes while standing on it moving.

 

Granted a lot of this could just be due to having bad engineers, but the point stands.  Halo does a lot of things right and very well, better than basically any other game in existence.  If you can't trust 343 to simply take what Bungie left and improve on it I certainly wouldn't trust them to start from scratch lol.  They're better off just improving their development tools semi frequently (which they're guilty of not doing until now) and improving the product. 


Plus engine transitions are insanely expensive in dev time. I was at Treyarch when Anthem was first unveiled at E3 and I remember everyone standing around someone's desk watching the reveal asking "Why are we still on Radiant, can we change to Frostbite already" and a production lead chimed in and mentioned it would cost the studio something to the tune of 8 figures and at least ~10 months to rebuild their tools.

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