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Halo Infinite Discussion

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Yeah I restrict myself to games that are fun to me and shooters with recoil usually fall out of that category.
I wouldn't even bother with Halo if people still played oldschool shooters like Q3, but it is what it is, we have to play what the average 12-14 year old likes because that is where the money is at.

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9 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Yeah I restrict myself to games that are fun to me and shooters with recoil usually fall out of that category.
I wouldn't even bother with Halo if people still played oldschool shooters like Q3, but it is what it is, we have to play what the average 12-14 year old likes because that is where the money is at.

Nothing wrong with that. There’s a reason people don’t enjoy those. 

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1 hour ago, Apoll0 said:

 superior mouse input to compensate very precisely.  

Big words coming from someone who is stuck playing 343's games. 

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11 minutes ago, Basu said:

Big words coming from someone who is stuck playing 343's games. 

Damn, I can’t tell if that’s a curse or punishment? 

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Ok next topic, random spread and why it has no place in Halo/what mechanics could be used in its place

Go

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6 minutes ago, Mow said:

Ok next topic, random spread and why it has no place in Halo/what mechanics could be used in its place

Go

You should make a statement like “random spread does not belong in Halo” then show your reasoning through supporting claims like “it reduces player agency”.  Then offer alternate solutions like “projectile weapons” and “crisp strafe”.  

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

@Apoll0

The HMG kills in 3 shots with purely vertical recoil.  You wouldn’t really be compensating for recoil after each shot but after each kill. Aim at the dick, let the recoil work its way up, acquire new dick, repeat.  Even if it was necessary to adjust mid burst, a little downward pressure on the thumbstick isn’t that difficult.  

Well thats the problem.  That recoil serves no purpose other than making headshots easier.  The point if hitting a headshot is that the head is a smaller target.  If you can just aim center mass and let the recoil do the work for you, thats bad design.  Especially in halo since after each shot the reticle returns to center.

26 minutes ago, Basu said:

Big words coming from someone who is stuck playing 343's games. 

lol when the mouse input is shit, i guess nothing else really matters.  The guns are going to feel like shit regardless.

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

You should make a statement like “random spread does not belong in Halo” then show your reasoning through supporting claims like “it reduces player agency”.  Then offer alternate solutions like “projectile weapons” and “crisp strafe”.  

I intend to, just want to see other people's ideas and opinions first, also feel free to make arguments for why random spread or other forms of spread should be in Halo.

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7 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Well thats the problem.  That recoil serves no purpose other than making headshots easier.  The point if hitting a headshot is that the head is a smaller target.  If you can just aim center mass and let the recoil do the work for you, thats bad design

The HMG isn’t headshot capable though...

8 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Especially in halo since after each shot the reticle returns to center.

H2 SMGs have recoil that doesn’t automatically reset.  

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30 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Well thats the problem.  That recoil serves no purpose other than making headshots easier.  The point if hitting a headshot is that the head is a smaller target.  If you can just aim center mass and let the recoil do the work for you, thats bad design.  Especially in halo since after each shot the reticle returns to center.

lol when the mouse input is shit, i guess nothing else really matters.  The guns are going to feel like shit regardless.

I wouldn’t say that’s bad game design but it’s called being smart. That’s also a form of recoil control, figuring out its pattern.

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34 minutes ago, Boyo said:

The HMG isn’t headshot capable though...

H2 SMGs have recoil that doesn’t automatically reset.  

You never said that.  Why would a precision weapon not be headshot capable? And honestly it doesn't matter.  If all you have to do to still hit all 3 shots is aim center-mass.  The recoil isn't really adding anything is it?

19 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I wouldn’t say that’s bad game design but it’s called being smart. That’s also a form of recoil control, figuring out its pattern.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.  Then there is literally 0 thought and no compensation required at all.  If the recoil doesn't actually have a tangible benefit without fucking with the feel of a weapon, it simply isn't necessary.  And it if isn't necessary, it doesn't belong.

 

To be fair, i am not opposed to recoil period.  I just have yet to see an implementation of it in a console/controller-centric game that makes the game better. All the ideas floated around about how to make it work have been tried already and we know how they work out. At best they just kind of... exist and are aesthetic only.  At worst they just make the guns shitty and feel trashy.  You have a lot more options for effectively introducing recoil in a positive way when you use KBM.

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7 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

You never said that.  Why would a precision weapon not be headshot capable? And honestly it doesn't matter.  If all you have to do to still hit all 3 shots is aim center-mass.  The recoil isn't really adding anything is it?

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.  Then there is literally 0 thought and no compensation required at all.  If the recoil doesn't actually have a tangible benefit without fucking with the feel of a weapon, it simply isn't necessary.  And it if isn't necessary, it doesn't belong.

 

To be fair, i am not opposed to recoil period.  I just have yet to see an implementation of it in a console/controller-centric game that makes the game better. All the ideas floated around about how to make it work have been tried already and we know how they work out. At best they just kind of... exist and are aesthetic only.  At worst they just make the guns shitty and feel trashy.  You have a lot more options for effectively introducing recoil in a positive way when you use KBM.

The point of recoil is to do what spread and bloom do. Make it so people can’t cross map people. BUT recoil is something controllable and this means skillful players can figure this out. It does the job better than bloom and spread. 
it doesn’t require pacing. In cod you don’t have average joes cross mapping, the recoil is doing its job. It’s not even super high but it works. 

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6 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Why would a precision weapon not be headshot capable? And honestly it doesn't matter.  If all you have to do to still hit all 3 shots is aim center-mass.  The recoil isn't really adding anything is it?

The HMG, the Heavy Machine Gun, the human turret, isn’t a precision weapon.  It fires accurately but is not headshot capable.  It deals increased damage to vehicles.  3 shot kill in 0.7 seconds.  

Mounted - projectiles begin dropping past medium range 

Detached (hipfire) - vertical recoil, base spread and increasing bloom 

Detached (ADS) - vertical recoil, reduced movement speed 

Vertical recoil requires the user to acquire individual targets instead of just spraying a swath.  Acquire target, dick, belly, chest, acquire new target, adjust aim, repeat.  You gain mobility but lose the ability to effectively fire at one height for extended periods encouraging the user to burst fire.  

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@Apoll0 gamers love shooters and love games with moderate big maps. Getting cross mapped isn’t something like. So games add bloom or RNG spread which pisses off skilled players. Recoil is the best solution because it’s effective but is controllable. 

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4 hours ago, Mow said:

Ok next topic, random spread and why it has no place in Halo/what mechanics could be used in its place

Go

I think the general absence of things like a ton of spread or recoil are what make Halo feel like Halo. Obviously nobody likes anything being random when they come out on the wrong end of it but getting away from that and just looking at how Halo feels in the original trilogy you'll notice there aren't very many mechanics that get in the way of the smooth movement and shooting mechanics. Sure the AR has spread on it, the CE pistol too, as well as things like the Halo 2 SMG having recoil buuuuut how often does anything other than your own input cause your aiming reticle to move? There's no sense of loss of control of your character almost ever. There are no animation locks. Your head doesn't bob while moving. The number of things that actually fight with you over your own character or aiming are very few and far between. Funnily enough almost everything we complain about in later games comes down to something changing that in some fashion. Even seemingly innocent things get blatantly annoying eventually like H2A and the screen shaking during explosions which was probably just intended to look cool

So if we were talking about making a Halo game that was supposed to feel like the older games I don't think you can add anything like what you're suggesting without pissing people off. Your best avenue for balancing weapons aside from blatant spread/recoil on automatics or shotguns to curtail them being too effective at range is likely just rate of fire, magazine size, aim assist, projectile speed and damage per shot. If the balancing weren't terrible the charge on the railgun was a decent attempt. When you go beyond that it won't feel like a Halo game anymore and you start getting things like the Hydra in H5 which I guess wasn't the worst idea but feels very out of place

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3 hours ago, Arlong said:

@Apoll0 gamers love shooters and love games with moderate big maps. Getting cross mapped isn’t something like. So games add bloom or RNG spread which pisses off skilled players. Recoil is the best solution because it’s effective but is controllable. 

Fuck off, Recoil on precision weapons is ass in Halo, have you used the Halo 5 BR? You cannot control it at all.

 

Projectile is the best way to make cross mapping harder, but projectile isn't a fucken annoying mechanic and you can actually compensate for it.

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Yeah, a single shot projectile weapon with a close to 1 second TTK is perfect imo, the projectile mechanic makes cross mapping harder without any sort of random spread, recoil that feels like crap or bloom lottery, idk why it's so hard for them to figure that out.

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5 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Yeah, a single shot projectile weapon with a close to 1 second TTK is perfect imo, the projectile mechanic makes cross mapping harder without any sort of random spread, recoil that feels like crap or bloom lottery, idk why it's so hard for them to figure that out.

Their netcode is garbage, just look at H5 and the blank shots left and right. 343's network engineers probably get cold sweats just hearing the work "projectile". Plus Bungie used the projectile solution for 2 of the trilogy games so obviously 343 can't use it because they have to put their own fucking spin on everything. On the other hand CoD has had projectile weapons in BO4 blackout and IIRC also MW(?) so the change of projectile in the next Halo just increased tenfold.

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The weapon that I don't understand how we haven't seen is the AR that's accurate at a distance with appropriate aim assist values and no spread. Give it a rest with the BR clones for every faction and try something obvious that could actually be balanced and yet different 343. If they're worried about it being too good because of zoom battles just don't give it a zoom function. Even if its not single shot if you changed the difference between headshot damage and body shot damage significantly enough something like that could easily be the most skill based utility weapon we've ever had while looking nothing like anything people imagine. The hard part would be letting it stay automatic while reducing the RoF enough that actually trying to aim and go for headshots would be rewarded and not super random

The whole series is a bunch of long range archtypes for weapons that bungie/343 have tried to somehow turn into mid range guns while they turn ARs into shitty shotguns. Its actually super weird lol. Nobody ever talks about it but bungie cursed us with that AR in CE and how weird that was probably has a lot to do with how they tried to fill the niche in H2 with an SMG instead of an AR because visually it made more sense that way along with dual wielding 

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1 hour ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

Fuck off, Recoil on precision weapons is ass in Halo, have you used the Halo 5 BR? You cannot control it at all.

 

Projectile is the best way to make cross mapping harder, but projectile isn't a fucken annoying mechanic and you can actually compensate for it.

And yet even that doesn’t do the trick all the time. 

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

Their netcode is garbage, just look at H5 and the blank shots left and right. 343's network engineers probably get cold sweats just hearing the work "projectile". Plus Bungie used the projectile solution for 2 of the trilogy games so obviously 343 can't use it because they have to put their own fucking spin on everything. On the other hand CoD has had projectile weapons in BO4 blackout and IIRC also MW(?) so the change of projectile in the next Halo just increased tenfold.

Oh, hey, projectile. The thing that figuratively ruined CoD MP and got changed for BO4's arena to fix hit reg and inconsistency issues that were complained about as a result of its implementation. Totally would work in a game with twice its killtime. 

Think back to Halo 3, where projectile existed. With bad netcode. It wasn't a solution then, it actually just exacerbated many other issues. Offered no legitimate positives, and certainly no positives that couldn't have been or weren't accomplished by other aspects of the game.

1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Yeah, a single shot projectile weapon with a close to 1 second TTK is perfect imo, the projectile mechanic makes cross mapping harder without any sort of random spread, recoil that feels like crap or bloom lottery, idk why it's so hard for them to figure that out.

 

2 hours ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

Projectile is the best way to make cross mapping harder, but projectile isn't a fucken annoying mechanic and you can actually compensate for it.

Okay, so, to both of you. You and someone are across the map from one another. You're not engaging in a fight, you just see someone walking to the right of your FoV. You fire, leading ahead of them. In between the time where the projectile comes out of the gun and hits the enemy, they get occupied by a more near engagement, and reverse course, stepping back half a foot, and walking out of your bullet's path as it hits the wall behind them. How is that something you can compensate for when you're relying on the enemy's unknown (to you) movement patterns to determine whether or not you hit them. You can't entirely compensate for unknown factors. You'll only know results in hindsight, after you fire, not before. That's just inconsistent. And out of your control.

On top of that, you're essentially rewarding people for aiming off target, and also to lead on a game with aim assist. Why do we wanna enforce that knowing the above.

Point more so is, you can make cross mapping harder without making your fights more random or inconsistent. Just make the AA range shorter. IF you wanna gimp your players that is. Halo 5's pistol is the most consistent utility weapon we've ever had and people can't crossmap with it, and the RRR happens to be perfect for not being absolutely lasered by kids across the map from you, even on Arena maps, while being able to provide enough range for most engagements so you're not constantly within shitting distance of one another.

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Do we really need another hitscan vs projectile debate? I think the camps of "hate it", "love it" and "would love it if the netcode wasn't dogshit" still exist and haven't moved an inch since the last one.

I actually didn't know that BO4 tried to implement projectile into Arena, that's interesting. Although to be fair Treyarch hasn't made a game with good netcode yet, jesus christ I remember BO1/BO2 were total nightmares outside of LAN.

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Do we really need another hitscan vs projectile debate? I think the camps of "hate it", "love it" and "would love it if the netcode wasn't dogshit" still exist and haven't moved an inch since the last one.

I actually didn't know that BO4 tried to implement projectile into Arena, that's interesting. Although to be fair Treyarch hasn't made a game with good netcode yet, jesus christ I remember BO1/BO2 were total nightmares outside of LAN.

I mean they’re actually pretty good. Especially compared to halo.

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Projectile is cool for alien weapons but honestly at this point I feel it's utility is compromised by it's practical absence at closer ranges, and frustratingly incalculable nature at longer ranges.

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9 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

frustratingly incalculable nature at longer ranges.

Ah fuck.  I can’t believe you’ve done this.  

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