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Halo Infinite Discussion

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13 minutes ago, Mow said:

How about the ADS perhaps slowing your movement speed as a trade off for a tighter spread? 

That could work to prevent players from running around ADSed the whole time.  

What kind of killtime are you imagining on the HMG?  I see the utility as a 4 shot kill in 1.0 seconds so the HMG would be a 3 shot kill in ~0.7-0.8 seconds.  

While mounted, the HMG fires projectiles that are accurate to medium range then begin dropping.  Once detached, vertical recoil kicks the reticle upward with each shot.  Projectile drop and vertical recoil prevent the weapon from becoming a laser beam.  

 

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

If your goal was to make the detached human turret a competitively viable weapon, how would it behave?

I would delete it before some dev turns it into the SAW 2.0. That shit would be beautiful when things like that just don't exist lol

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9 minutes ago, Boyo said:

That could work to prevent players from running around ADSed the whole time.  

What kind of killtime are you imagining on the HMG?  I see the utility as a 4 shot kill in 1.0 seconds so the HMG would be a 3 shot kill in ~0.7-0.8 seconds.  

While mounted, the HMG fires projectiles that are accurate to medium range then begin dropping.  Once detached, vertical recoil kicks the reticle upward with each shot.  Projectile drop and vertical recoil prevent the weapon from becoming a laser beam.  

 

Honestly I'm not too sure, I just like throwing random ideas out there every now and then, but one thing I definitely don't see discussed enough is recoil and spread's place in Halo. Personally I think spread, or at least random spread, has no place in Halo and I'm not sure why it doesn't get talked about more.

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Just now, Mow said:

Honestly I'm not too sure, I just like throwing random ideas out there every now and then, but one thing I definitely don't see discussed enough is recoil and spread's place in Halo. Personally I think spread, or at least random spread, has no place in Halo and I'm not sure why it doesn't get talked about more.

I’m with ya on no random spread.  On a weapon like the detached HMG, that isn’t headshot capable, vertical recoil is ok because is adds a minor element of recalibration, if not after each shot then at least after each kill.  Projectile drop works to limit effective range while also allowing for indirect fire in certain scenarios (you fire just over a hill from a good distance back, the projectile clears the hill and begins dropping on the other side, allowing you to potentially hit a target that you couldn’t see from where you fired).  

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Recoil is a shit mechanic imo, I would rather have some random spread on autos if we have to have them.

That said I would remove the detaching of turrets so they can fit into their role better, if you can detach them and have no movement debuff and stay first person they are literally just another auto weapon. Stationary turrets should mainly be for BTB and so on, with no detaching they could be one of the anti vehicle tools you place at bases for CTF or assault since weapons like rocket launchers always have a possibility to get stolen by the enemy team.

I wouldn't even be too mad at a turret player being able to mark enemy vehicles for 10 seconds by aiming on them, could encourage using it without making the damage scale too much. Probably also projectiles.

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1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

if you can detach them and have no movement debuff and stay first person they are literally just another auto weapon

Yes and no.  First, I wouldn’t have so many human autos.  No smg, no saw.  You’d have the AR and the HMG.  

1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Stationary turrets should mainly be for BTB and so on, with no detaching they could be one of the anti vehicle tools you place at bases for CTF or assault since weapons like rocket launchers always have a possibility to get stolen by the enemy team.

True.  That’s why the human turret would be the only detachable turret.  This allows turrets to play a role in arena games as well as BTB games.  The HMG is a unique pick up that no traditional weapon can replicate.  This opens the door for different mechanics, like ADS to be applied to it.  Halo has never captured the feeling that other games can give when you’re firing a giant machine gun.  I think a detachable HMG is a great way to have a unique automatic power weapon that gives players that feeling.  

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7 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Recoil is a shit mechanic imo, I would rather have some random spread on autos if we have to have them.

That said I would remove the detaching of turrets so they can fit into their role better, if you can detach them and have no movement debuff and stay first person they are literally just another auto weapon. Stationary turrets should mainly be for BTB and so on, with no detaching they could be one of the anti vehicle tools you place at bases for CTF or assault since weapons like rocket launchers always have a possibility to get stolen by the enemy team.

I wouldn't even be too mad at a turret player being able to mark enemy vehicles for 10 seconds by aiming on them, could encourage using it without making the damage scale too much. Probably also projectiles.

Recoil is meant to make it so an AR isn’t melting across map. I feel splitgate had a good balance where the auto was strong but the pistol was better. 

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6 hours ago, Arlong said:

Recoil is meant to make it so an AR isn’t melting across map. I feel splitgate had a good balance where the auto was strong but the pistol was better. 

Displacing the crosshair with recoil just feels very bad to me, I would rather have my crosshair where I want it to be and adjust other gun stats to make it not that OP, usually weapons with a fast RoF are harder to aim because of the tracking but playing with controllers it doesn't feel hard at all.
I think I would personally just not really have all automatic weapons from the recent games, maybe just the AR to have 1 weapon in this class, I would even be fine with a low spread just needs low enough aim assist and bullet magnetism to not become too easy close range, again projectiles can help with cross mapping too, I think I would mostly work with projectiles and only have hitscan for very specific guns like sniper, spartan laser, sentinel beam, etc.

Who knows, with a specific fire rate and projectiles one might even be able to have automatic weapons that shoot dead center and have no recoil, but I feel like we will never see a lot of weapon fine tuning like this, only genre I really saw that in are arena shooters which don't seem to care if there are easy to use weapons for beginners (not saying the weapons in Halo are that hard).

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19 hours ago, Arlong said:

Stop thinking every weapon needs to be good for competitive 

Ideally they should be.  Adding throwaway crutch weapons is pointless to me.

19 hours ago, Boyo said:

If your goal was to make the detached human turret a competitively viable weapon, how would it behave?

It's design is inherently at odds with competitive gameplay.  Not much I can do without fundamentally redesigning the entire gun.

I guess I would (as per usual Ce basis):

-Make it pinpoint accurate, but relatively slow projectile speed to limit range and impose challenge.  Also with slower firing, higher damage bullets instead of high fire rate, low damage bullets.

-Give it a half second spin up time before firing. Player moves at normal speed while not firing but instantly slows down while gun is spinned up.  Can NOT be spun up indefinitely, there is no dedicated spin up button, can only be spun up before firing.

-Make it absolutely shred enemies in another half second killtime once it starts firing.

-Only allow for about a full second of sustained fire before overheating.

-When detached only carries enough ammo for about four kills.

So it can melt when used properly, and is still likely easier to aim than a BR, but at least requires proper timing and positioning to use to max effectiveness and isn't just a brainless hold right trigger spam cannon.  And has actual counterplay with people abusing the charge time/overheat.

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@Ramirez77 I agree with pretty much everything, except:

2 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

Give it a half second spin up time before firing. Player moves at normal speed while not firing but instantly slows down while gun is spinned up.  Can NOT be spun up indefinitely, there is no dedicated spin up button, can only be spun up before firing.

First, let’s look at what “spin up” actually is.   It is a charge time before firing an automatic weapon.  It’s more Spartan Laser and less Sentinel Beam.  A period of no damage is followed by a period of high damage vs a steady stream of damage.*

Now you are going to tie movement speed in with spin up.  So as soon as RT is pressed, the user will be temporarily slowed (even if you just tapped RT it would take a half second or so for the barrels to stop spinning and movement to return to normal).**

I think an ADS system could work better than spin up here.  With spin up you get no projectiles, followed by high DPS projectiles.  With ADS you get instant access to inaccurate projectiles, delayed access to accurate projectiles, and a reason as to why the player’s movement speed has been reduced.***

***ADS is more intuitive than spin up as to why the player’s movement speed has been reduced.  There is a significant shift in the position of the weapon model and a slight zoom.  The giant iron sights atop a massive gun taking up the entire bottom of the screen let players know why they are moving slower.  A barrel spinning reducing movement speed?  Doesn’t really make sense.  Additionally, slower movement could be seen as aiding in finer aiming while ADSed, slower movement with spin up is just pure punishment.  

**Switching between hipefire and ADS and vice versa occurs near instantly and the player is in control of it.  Spin up is slow and the player is not in control of it.  When movement speed is tied to spin up and not ADS, players lose control of their movement, moving in seemingly weird, jerky bursts of speed as the barrel finally stops spinning.  ADS is smooth because the player is in control.  

*Spin Up is infuriating.  Having a giant machine gun but when you pull the trigger it doesn’t fire?  That’s wack, Jack.  And, with all else being equal, a longer time on target requires more skill so just take whatever the spin up time was, add it to the killtime, and make that the new killtime without spin up.  

If the Magnum kills in 4 shots in 1.0 seconds, the HMG should kill in 3 shots in like 0.7 seconds, right?

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21 hours ago, Arlong said:

Stop thinking every weapon needs to be good for competitive 

2 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

Ideally they should be.  Adding throwaway crutch weapons is pointless to me.

Competitive is 4v4, how is adding something for 8v8 a throwaway crutch weapon? Are wraiths also pointless because they don't do anything for competitive?

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2 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Competitive is 4v4, how is adding something for 8v8 a throwaway crutch weapon? Are wraiths also pointless because they don't do anything for competitive?

A Plasma Pistol is viable in arena games because it can strip shields as well as in vehicular games because it can stun vehicles.  Ideally, most weapons would have some kind of functionality in both arena and BTB.  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Boyo said:

A Plasma Pistol is viable in arena games because it can strip shields as well as in vehicular games because it can stun vehicles.  Ideally, most weapons would have some kind of functionality in both arena and BTB. 

I mean I get what you mean, if you can make it work in both that's a nice bonus but one shouldn't restrict the sandbox to ideas that only work in both, that is the point I am trying to make. Forcing a turret to work in 4v4s is not the best idea imo, we don't really need it there if you ask me.
Personally think turret fits better into a sandbox that has vehicles present and generally could be stronger if it shoots projectiles with high damage which sounds too cheesy for small arena like maps where most ranges wouldn't mean you have to lead the shots too much.

4 minutes ago, Basu said:

Competitive BTB is a thing, well used to be at least. 

Right, and I am one of the people who does think it can be interesting, however with what I said above it might be more clear what I meant.
Just saying some stuff is specific for BTB like wraiths for example, and I think turrets could be more unique if they were only around in BTB because one doesn't have to balance them to work on smaller maps with more chokepoints. (And ofc you could still place them there with forge but with some of the ideas I had in mind they would probably be too strong in 4v4s).

Generally if you see what @Boyo said it also sounds like he wants it to be stronger and I agree with that. Guess we disagree about where their place really is at.

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19 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

turret fits better into a sandbox that has vehicles present and generally could be stronger if it shoots projectiles with high damage

The HMG’s projectiles could have a vehicle damage modifier that causes them to deal increased damage to vehicles without being overpowered against infantry.  Compared to a standard hand weapon, bullets from a Heavy Machine Gun shredding vehicles would be more balanced and make more sense.  

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26 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

too cheesy for small arena like maps where most ranges wouldn't mean you have to lead the shots too much.

Well, there would be two levels of projectile compensation necessary, leading the projectile at closer ranges and accounting for projectile drop at longer ranges.  Projectile drop would really only come into significant play on BTB maps.

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Recoil is such a different experience on PC then it is on console.  On console, its just fucking annoying.  I think its kind of fun to learn the recoil pattern and how hard it hits on PC, since you can use the superior mouse input to compensate very precisely.  On console... its just annoying.  Thumbsticks simply aren't precise enough to compensate properly.  With some weapons that kick hard you simply can't compensate fast enough so the weapon always feels like its fighting you instead of being an extension of yourself.

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@Apoll0

The HMG kills in 3 shots with purely vertical recoil.  You wouldn’t really be compensating for recoil after each shot but after each kill. Aim at the dick, let the recoil work its way up, acquire new dick, repeat.  Even if it was necessary to adjust mid burst, a little downward pressure on the thumbstick isn’t that difficult.  

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41 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Recoil is such a different experience on PC then it is on console.  On console, its just fucking annoying.  I think its kind of fun to learn the recoil pattern and how hard it hits on PC, since you can use the superior mouse input to compensate very precisely.  On console... its just annoying.  Thumbsticks simply aren't precise enough to compensate properly.  With some weapons that kick hard you simply can't compensate fast enough so the weapon always feels like its fighting you instead of being an extension of yourself.

This is why we have something like cod levels of recoil. Honestly it’s not hard to control, it’s easy to learn. Too many of you act like most games have Pubg levels of recoil. 
heck’s the BR in halo 5 has vertical recoil and it’s the easiest thing to control. Analog sticks have aim assist which assists in this so it’s perfectly ok. 

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5 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

I've been playing a lot of Destiny 2 lately any holy shit is recoil and flinch the most annoying thing in history. 

Maybe you just suck? The recoil in Destiny 2 isn’t even high, and it has a crap ton of AA. 

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1 hour ago, Apoll0 said:

Recoil is such a different experience on PC then it is on console.  On console, its just fucking annoying.  I think its kind of fun to learn the recoil pattern and how hard it hits on PC, since you can use the superior mouse input to compensate very precisely.  On console... its just annoying.  Thumbsticks simply aren't precise enough to compensate properly.  With some weapons that kick hard you simply can't compensate fast enough so the weapon always feels like its fighting you instead of being an extension of yourself.

This is very true, controllers just don't really allow precise adjustments in such small time scales.

But then again the PC shooters I love the most are arena shooters and there is just something really special about games like Quake 3 Arena where no weapon has any sort of recoil whatsoever, I am sure many will disagree but I always liked what Halo CE and Reach gold pro did with faster items because it felt closer to an arena shooter than H2&H3, and ideally I would like to also keep that feeling of your crosshair not being moved by anything but the player itself.

That was specifically for Halo tho, I generally agree that recoil can be nice depending on the game (for example CS), but never played a console game where recoil didn't feel out of place.

25 minutes ago, Arlong said:

This is why we have something like cod levels of recoil. Honestly it’s not hard to control, it’s easy to learn. Too many of you act like most games have Pubg levels of recoil. 
heck’s the BR in halo 5 has vertical recoil and it’s the easiest thing to control. Analog sticks have aim assist which assists in this so it’s perfectly ok. 

Right, but what is the point of it then? I am just saying that in my vision for Halo recoil shouldn't exist so for me this is not "perfectly ok".
And if 343 already goes with "immersion" why can a spartan flip a fucking scorpion tank but not control a battle rifle in his hands to the level where the recoil completely gets negated?

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18 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

This is very true, controllers just don't really allow precise adjustments in such small time scales.

But then again the PC shooters I love the most are arena shooters and there is just something really special about games like Quake 3 Arena where no weapon has any sort of recoil whatsoever, I am sure many will disagree but I always liked what Halo CE and Reach gold pro did with faster items because it felt closer to an arena shooter than H2&H3, and ideally I would like to also keep that feeling of your crosshair not being moved by anything but the player itself.

That was specifically for Halo tho, I generally agree that recoil can be nice depending on the game (for example CS), but never played a console game where recoil didn't feel out of place.

Right, but what is the point of it then? I am just saying that in my vision for Halo recoil shouldn't exist so for me this is not "perfectly ok".
And if 343 already goes with "immersion" why can a spartan flip a fucking scorpion tank but not control a battle rifle in his hands to the level where the recoil completely gets negated?

1. No one knows.

2. You obviously don’t play many games if that’s your opinion on recoil. 
 

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