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Am I the only one who has no earthly idea as to what this means?

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9 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Am I the only one who has no earthly idea as to what this means?

Basically the debate is should Halo Infinite have Hitscan or Projectile aiming, and what should the ttk (time to kill) be. There could be other points I missed, I don't want to pretend to be an expert but:

3sk = 3 shot kill

Hitscan = bullet goes where you're aiming

Projectile = you may have to put your cursor where the player is going to be depending on how far away you are 

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2 hours ago, Silos said:

I felt this was slightly different than the Beast/Ruddler debate. The point about needing extra indicators to show where bullets land is true, and your feelings about shooting not feeling good when projectile is fair as well even if I disagree. I'm not about to argue what you enjoy. As for networking, yeah it's a concern. All I can say is hopefully it's good if we get projectile.

For needing to slow down bullets though. I'm not necessarily imagining needing to have serious lead for every kill. Like Prisoner I don't lead a ton if at all depending on how far apart I am from my opponent. But I don't mind having some maps with long sightlines where you do have to lead, like Hang 'Em High.

Would that be a decent compromise? Fast bullets for close range but some long range maps that make it a factor. Or is projectile bullets just not something you'd ever want?

If the netcode is good enough then yeah I could live with that. Big if though.

My point about the tracer rounds and hit effects still stands though and this is especially important if you want people to learn how to lead correctly instead of just guessing and spamming shots. It's not an impossible task, but I do wonder if it's ultimately worth the tradeoff. We're basically weighing possibly increased skill ceiling vs potentially wonky hitreg and more work for the developer.

I just wish 343 would get off their asses already and fix the CE hitreg so we could have a more realistic discussion instead of having so much "what if?" going around. I just have too many Halo matches under my belt with bad ping and hosts/servers acting up to consider this a solid idea moving forward.

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12 minutes ago, JordanB said:

Basically the debate is should Halo Infinite have Hitscan or Projectile aiming, and what should the ttk (time to kill) be. There could be other points I missed, I don't want to pretend to be an expert but:

3sk = 3 shot kill

Hitscan = bullet goes where you're aiming

Projectile = you may have to put your cursor where the player is going to be depending on how far away you are 

Thanks.  Can you parse this?

 

30 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I should've reiterated and said they're taking a few shots over the perfect kill time. Obviously no one in nearly any Halo is hitting consistent 4s or 5s. Which was my main point in saying going for a weapon based on an inconsistent ratio isn't as good as "I want a weapon that kills in X amount of seconds and is difficult to use".

Aaaaaaaaand while I get it's hyperbolic, the application of predictions, hypotheses, and guesses in the real world differs from that of the gaming world. 

 

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I gotta agree with beast, hitscan isn’t just magically less skilled. You still must predict how this persons going to strafe and adjust your reticule depending how they move. I like beasts points and I think Basu mentioned something earlier on projectile at range above 50 ping is just unplayable, and from someone who plays pubg(NA west is 90-100 ping) I agree with that statement.

reach v7 didn’t have some absurd bullet mag or aim assist, especially when you compare it too the likes of h4&5. And beast I’d say probably can say it was good at range. 

Hey can some of you stop comparing games on lan? It’s literally the most pointless thing ever because a game will play better on lan every time. If you can find me a game that doesn’t I’ll wait. A games movement, shooting, registration will always be different vastly because of online play. Hitscan was created so online play wouldn’t be utter dog shit, and so lag compensation doesn’t make everything play super awful. 

Hey why are you guys so obsessed with projectile anyway? Halo doesn’t have bullet drop or anything(this is usually why people want projectile so you must account for bullet drop at range) so what’s really going on here? You want to feel better at predicting people? The only real mental clarity that should go into the game is predicting how the pushes, the weapon & power up timing, etc. why shouldn’t my gun skill be all physical? Is that actually a bad thing? You think shroud or ninja or someone is really predicting how someone is moving? No it’s muscle memory and everything like that. It’s 90% physical and that tincy bit of mentally that goes into it.

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56 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Thanks.  Can you parse this?

 

 

They're discussing the perfect ttk vs the average ttk. So for example, in Halo CE a perfect kill is 3 shots with the Magnum. But it's very hard to get a perfect kill. The (apparent) average is a 6sk. That means the average kill is twice as long as a perfect kill. Let's say this number is 0.6 seconds longer. 

In a game like Halo 5, a perfect kill is a 5sk, but the average might be a 8sk. This number is also 0.6 seconds longer. But it isn't comparable exactly bec it's not double the time like it in in CE. 

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Which would hinder an aimbot more, hitscan or projectile?

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11 minutes ago, JordanB said:

They're discussing the perfect ttk vs the average ttk. So for example, in Halo CE a perfect kill is 3 shots with the Magnum. But it's very hard to get a perfect kill. The (apparent) average is a 6sk. That means the average kill is twice as long as a perfect kill. Let's say this number is 0.6 seconds longer. 

In a game like Halo 5, a perfect kill is a 5sk, but the average might be a 8sk. This number is also 0.6 seconds longer. But it isn't comparable exactly bec it's not double the time like it in in CE. 

Some of you guys dig too deep into ttk tbh.

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

Which would hinder an aimbot more, hitscan or projectile?

And my answer is does it matter? People aimbot on projectile shooters just fine as seen in apex and pubg. 

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1 minute ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

And my answer is does it matter? People aimbot on projectile shooters just fine as seen in apex and pubg. 

Why would you bother to respond to a simple question if you weren’t going to answer it?

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Just now, Boyo said:

Why would you bother to respond to a simple question if you weren’t going to answer it?

Ok hitscan. Now answer mine does it matter? 

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Just now, Fixaimingsorry said:

Ok hitscan. Now answer mine does it matter? 

Yes, it does matter.

If a computer can aim better using one method, what does that tell us about the other method?

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4 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Yes, it does matter.

If a computer can aim better using one method, what does that tell us about the other method?

Nothing actually. The reason aimbot is worse via projectile is because the aimbot still needs to compensate for bullet drop(whom isn’t a mechanic that can be done via hitscan).  By worse I mean less effective than it is on hitscan

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1 minute ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Nothing actually. The reason aimbot is worse via projectile is because the aimbot still needs to compensate for bullet drop(whom isn’t a mechanic that can be done via hitscan). 

Bullet travel time and projectile drop have nothing to do with one another.  Why is it easier for a computer to aim on hitscan vs projectile?

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6 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Bullet travel time and projectile drop have nothing to do with one another.  Why is it easier for a computer to aim on hitscan vs projectile?

Tbh I don’t know the answer to that, I do not have a degree in computer science. What I know is it’s easier. The Aimer tracks you regardless of projectile or hitscan. But projectile can make the bullets have a more difficult time hitting you because the computer can’t predict the bullet travel. Aimbot is simply the Aimer going hand in hand, but the bullet mechanics aren’t taken into account every time.(sometimes they are though)  bruh are you trying to make projectile jist look more skilled when comparing their aimbot differences? 

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Just now, Fixaimingsorry said:

Tbh I don’t know the answer to that, I do not have a degree in computer science. What I know is it’s easier. The Aimer tracks you regardless of projectile or hitscan. But projectile can make the bullets have a more difficult time hitting you because the computer can’t predict the bullet travel. Aimbot is simply the Aimer going hand in hand, but the bullet mechanics aren’t taken into account every time.(sometimes they are though) 

Are you saying that there is more of a “human element” involved when firing projectiles vs hitscan bullets?

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25 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Are you saying that there is more of a “human element” involved when firing projectiles vs hitscan bullets?

Yes I am somewhat. What are you trying to say here? Like I’m sure I know, but I want to be sure here. If you look at aimbotters on apex legends because of the projectile shooting mechanics the aimbot isn’t 100% effective but it’s still 95% effective! 

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2 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Some of you guys dig too deep into ttk tbh.

I mean it does matter though lol

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38 minutes ago, JordanB said:

I mean it does matter though lol

Idk not really. Like considering how skilled apex is, clearly a long TTK isn’t the issue with being able to defeat two opponents by yourself, which is usually the basis of the reason for a low perfect ttk. One of you stated you like this enough because it’s fast enough to kill two opponents(or one of them) before they could react. With a higher ttk this isn’t completely possible. I think h5 ttk was fast enough, but then someone mentions the moment someone is shot they thrust, which is why if thruster stays in halo it honestly needs a NeRf. Like a small side step on Nerf. That way thruster isn’t a running away mechanic, isn’t a melee noob mechanic, is strafe dependent only, would please the idiots who say halo needs to change.

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I like the idea of a thruster that’s not big like the current, and only allows you to move to the sides. Why do you hate thruster? Many here hate it for the same reason we hated sprint, because it was a get out of jail free card. Looking back with the nerfed sprint, this would of played fine had its nerf not been negated by the thruster. If thruster was side only it wouldn’t be so op. 

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Do you think many don’t play quake because of the high skill gap? Was reading the apex forums and guys thread is about wanting them to not remove heal hopping. He makes a note how exploits can be skilled and mentions halo 2s button glitches and speed runners. One guy counters him by saying you shouldn’t cater to the 1%.

First of all its not bhopping heals.  its HEAL HOPPING.  and its an exploit.  I don't see any streamers in this game bhopping unless healing.

 

And "Normies" are what make games.    Is it good business sense to make a game just for the 1% of players?  Anything can be competitive and these pro players will play whatever they are paid to play.  Which is whatever is popular.

Quake died because of the enormous skill gap, and unlike counterstrike,   they didn't have auto balanced team mods on pubs  or community run leagues for all skill levels.   They tried to implement these things in  quakelive,  many years later too late,  and they catered to the "pro" players  allowing them to undermine their own rules by  stacking teams, smurfing and tier slumming matches.    They felt too entitled to stomp noobs and I see a trend happening here.

IDDQD is for removing HEAL HOPPING,  because the devs said it was unintended.  And a real pro should suck it up and adapt to the the rules,  thats why they are pros is what he said.   IMO, it won't change how good they are.

Shroud,  Mendoukisaii,  dizzy.  I consider them pro streamers.  They just want w/e is in the best interest for their stream money.  They are for kill points,   heal hopping,   peacekeeper fast reload etc....   Simply because it makes their stream more exciting, something to stand out and talk about,  and they want that extra crutch for showing off against newb players.

There are many examples of mechanics in this game that are done much better by the pros then amateurs.  Including movement regardless of heal hopping.”

 

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There are any number of reasons why people don't play Quake.  If the skillgap alone were an issue we wouldn't see people playing other competitive games.

I think the most damning thing about the Quake franchise is that it's purely competitive. Like if you want to relax in Quake...you just stop playing Quake. There's serious modes then slightly less modes like instagib which are still pretty sweaty in their own right.  Due to the design there's few if any "lmfao what the shit just happened" moments in the game either.  It's just pure sweat.

Team Fortress 2 at it's core is very similar skill-gap wise (Quake fans will deny this up and down but at it's core it shares many of the same learned and applied skills) ...except it also has a much more accessible skill floor and a million different goof off modes and gameplay aspects for casual minded gamers to enjoy.  Hence why Quake is at 600 players and TF2 has maintained above 50k for over a decade now.  Even CSGO at least has things like Surf and 16v16 cs_office going for it.

For Quake the skillgap is also less mental and more strictly twitch in nature as well, not much room for a thinker to excel over someone with great reflexes.  Well okay that's not entirely accurate, there are plenty of mental aspects to Quake's skillgap, the problem is they're just cryptic and unintuitive for anyone who isn't already familiar with the game.  Knowing where to hold, what traps to set, what weapons to use, where to attack, etc. in a game like Rainbow Six or CS is common everyday reasoning, it follows from sensible real life experience.  Whereas in Quake or similar games it's like "okay if I rocket jump to X I'll be in position to spawn my teammate at Y and also drop right on top of the mini healths while skipping the +50 health because I'm at 80/100 and it doesn't overheal like the minihealths do and-"  you see my point, it's all intricate knowledge of game mechanics instead of intuitive, familiar reasoning.

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I'm still hoping for DOOM Eternal MP to revive the AFPS genre. I think many people are bored of Military shooters and Battle Royale by now and Arena shooters might make a comeback, there just needs to be one solid game with a good dev behind it and tons of hype and marketing. 

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5 hours ago, Basu said:

I'm still hoping for DOOM Eternal MP to revive the AFPS genre. I think many people are bored of Military shooters and Battle Royale by now and Arena shooters might make a comeback, there just needs to be one solid game with a good dev behind it and tons of hype and marketing. 

Bored of Brs? Yeah nope. So far doesn’t look like it. And the people who say they want Brs to die usually suck at them!  Deep down arena FPS won’t ever come back unless it’s really good, like halo 2/3 good. 

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