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Halo Infinite Discussion

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4sk with headshot in 1.0 seconds

8sk with bodyshots in 2.3 seconds

2 shot plus melee in ~0.5 seconds

Projectile

2x scope

large reticle but fires down the center every time

16 shot mag 

There’s your perfect utility.

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Projectile as a mechanic is fine. Historically it's been borked because of things like bad netcode. I don't remember having any problems on the original CE. Also if MCC CE is any indication, hitscan isn't actually solving the inconsistency problem.

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1 hour ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Alright where are we pulling these numbers from lmao. Where is the data showing the "average ttk" in every game? And how different are those numbers in actual high level matches compared to overall? You can't just say numbers and go from there. 

 

We counted grand finals one day. Watch beachlan 7 gf then watch 2010 h3 championship gf. Count how many times it takes one person on the losing team to die. Dont include the times when they get their shield back. Keep a seperate tally for nade/sniper asissts as a dif comparison  

halo is a guessing game. Thats half the reason why its played to 50 kills and not 4. The other half is execution. Actually every game is a guessing game. Dota, csgo, any fighting game. Tic tac toe is not a guessing game and its a bad game.

a worse player overall can beat wabetter player in any game. I can score on Lebron eventually, and thats okay. It just means im the better player in the moment. 

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8 minutes ago, Riddler said:

We counted grand finals one day. Watch beachlan 7 gf then watch 2010 h3 championship gf. Count how many times it takes one person on the losing team to die. Dont include the times when they get their shield back. Keep a seperate tally for nade/sniper asissts as a dif comparison  

halo is a guessing game. Thats half the reason why its played to 50 kills and not 4. The other half is execution. Actually every game is a guessing game. Dota, csgo, any fighting game. Tic tac toe is not a guessing game and its a bad game. 

It's not guessing where your bullets go lmao. Let's play full bloom Reach that's a guessing game x1000. Projectile just makes long range a literal guessing game. It functions almost like bloom. Regardless of your aim skill it's entirely based on where the enemy moves. Tracking aim skill is a massive thing and is perfectly fine as the primary factor with your spawn weapon. 

And lol that's such a small sample size and doesn't take into consideration any other factors. The main reason past halo games have a tho issue is because they're 3 round bursts and you can facepaint people. Single fire makes a huge difference. Past halo games have been ass because of that and insane aim assist but it doesn't make projectile the answer. 

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7 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

It's not guessing where your bullets go lmao. Let's play full bloom Reach that's a guessing game x1000. Projectile just makes long range a literal guessing game. It functions almost like bloom. Regardless of your aim skill it's entirely based on where the enemy moves. Tracking aim skill is a massive thing and is perfectly fine as the primary factor with your spawn weapon. 

And lol that's such a small sample size and doesn't take into consideration any other factors. The main reason past halo games have a tho issue is because they're 3 round bursts and you can facepaint people. Single fire makes a huge difference. Past halo games have been ass because of that and insane aim assist but it doesn't make projectile the answer. 

Its still guessing but is predicting. U cant predict bloom. U also arent constantly strafing. People form habits, and u outplay them by predicting what they’ll do. U like crouching right? If the crouch/uncrouch animation is less than 12 frames to get out of crosshair (it is in ce/h5) its literally unreactable and its just guessing/predicting too regardless of projectile or hitscan. 

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1 minute ago, Riddler said:

Its still guessing but is predicting. U cant predict bloom. U also arent constantly strafing. People form habits, and u outplay them by predicting what they’ll do. U like crouching right? If the crouch/uncrouch animation is less than 12 frames to get out of crosshair (it is in ce/h5) its literally unreactable and its just guessing/predicting too regardless of projectile or hitscan. 

It's not predicting lmao it's literally putting your reticle near the guy and spamming your trigger hoping you hit your shots. That's how it always works. You might like to praise yourself and think "I did that on purpose" but it's all entirely up to chance. It's inconsistent and that's the point. It's not needed and isn't inherently more skillful than hitscan like you guys keep saying. Making things hitscan isn't "dumbing shooting down" and that's the point. 

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Feel free to analyze the whole top 8 of beachlan and the 2010 championship but it is the general consensus that its 4-5 shots in those games and 5-7 in ce. Like yes theres other factors but they shouldnt be excluding. No game is an octagon game. 

 

Single fire and burst do make a huge dif and so do projectile and hitscan but no one is arguing for them. Thats deflecting the whole point which was we want a fast perfect ttk and a longer avg ttk, and that fast perfect ttk doesnt mean u have a long avg ttk

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2 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

It's not predicting lmao it's literally putting your reticle near the guy and spamming your trigger hoping you hit your shots. That's how it always works. You might like to praise yourself and think "I did that on purpose" but it's all entirely up to chance. It's inconsistent and that's the point. It's not needed and isn't inherently more skillful than hitscan like you guys keep saying. Making things hitscan isn't "dumbing shooting down" and that's the point. 

I do think that and its true. Every long range hang em battle is me thinking “hes gunna strafe right, he didnt, hes gunna stand still, he didnt, adjust every time.” Same with my strafe.  

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5 minutes ago, Riddler said:

I do think that and its true. Every long range hang em battle is me thinking “hes gunna strafe right, he didnt, hes gunna stand still, he didnt, adjust every time.” Same with my strafe.  

Yea and it's still just you shooting hoping your shots hit lmao that's literally proving my point. It's guesswork. And I don't like that. And it's not inherently more skillful than hitscan. You literally proved the point. 

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2 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Yea and it's still just you shooting hoping your shots hit lmao that's literally proving my point. It's guesswork. And I don't like that. And it's not inherently more skillful than hitscan. You literally proved the point. 

It is more skillful because its two elements. Its literally mechanical plus mental where hitscan is just mechanical. If im 50% accurate and ur 50% accurate, we’re going 50:50 every time. If we add i can predict u better im winning more than 50% of the time. Yes i broke it down this simple because u cant quantitate it any other way. 

 

Its the same argument for powerups and weps again lol. It adds another element which separates people skillwise even more. 

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Hitscan relies only on physical skill.

Projectile requires mental skill, like predictive capabilities, as well a physically being capable of placing your reticle where you want it.

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Lmao there's no mental skill in hitscan? This argumentis done you guys are actually delusional. And no you can't break it down like that lmao it's nowhere near that quantifiable. Stop. Seriously this seems like some ego thing where you like it more so you talk about how much more skillful it is  it's not. 

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2 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Lmao there's no mental skill in hitscan? This argumentis done you guys are actually delusional. And no you can't break it down like that lmao it's nowhere near that quantifiable. Stop. Seriously this seems like some ego thing where you like it more so you talk about how much more skillful it is  it's not. 

Almost as bad as saying OW requires no aiming skill. LOLZ

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5 minutes ago, NeverGoFullCanc said:

Almost as bad as saying OW requires no aiming skill. LOLZ

When characters like Mercy Winston and Symmetra exist and Hanzo's arrows have massive hitboxes then yeah valid statement OW doesn't require a whole lot of gunskill aside from a few key heroes.

On hitscan vs projectile: I have yet to play a game with projectile that is 1) satisfying to shoot in and 2) has decent netcode. Projectile also requires changes such as using tracer rounds so you can actually see the projectiles, some sort of hit sound/effect etc. to confirm sucessful hits and it has to clearly convey to the player which guns have X bullet velocity. Not an easy task.

And given how shitty H5's servers are, I really really don't want Infinite to use projectiles on top of that garbage. Projectile makes any game with players >50ms ping completely unplayable. I'm also inclined to agree with Beast here, while it may be a skill to master in theory, in reality it's often just guesswork and spamming bullets ahead of running targets. Plus this "skill" only really affects cross-mapping and BTB maps anyways. If you want projectile to affect gunfights on maps like Midship (not the H5 atrocity, the actual Middy) you'd have to make bullets travel so slowly that it becomes comical and just to force leading as a skill? Idk guys I'd rather just have a consistent, low aim assist hitscan rifle with a x2 zoom than experimenting with stuff like that in order to maybe force another layer of skill into the game.

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Is predicting a strafe guesswork is pattern recognition?

Daigo is one of, if not the greatest fighting game player ever. He's known for reading his opponent's actions and predicting what they will do. Is that guesswork or skilled prediction?

When my friend jumps in Halo 1 when he's one shot and I predict it because I know he plays a lot of other Halos so I aim up after my second shot hits, is that skilled prediction or guesswork?

When this same friend kills me in Halo 5 because I have a bad habit of thrusting in the opposite direction I jump in and he predicts that and lines up his reticule for the thrust, is that skilled pattern recognition or guesswork?

I don't feel too strongly about hitscan or projectile. I think you can have a more skillful predictive element with projectile but I can enjoy a game with hitscan. I definitely think strafe recognition is a thing though.

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2 minutes ago, Basu said:

When characters like Mercy Winston and Symmetra exist and Hanzo's arrows have massive hitboxes then yeah valid statement OW doesn't require a whole lot of gunskill aside from a few key heroes.

On hitscan vs projectile: I have yet to play a game with projectile that is 1) satisfying to shoot in and 2) has decent netcode. Projectile also requires changes such as using tracer rounds so you can actually see the projectiles, some sort of hit sound/effect etc. to confirm sucessful hits and it has to clearly convey to the player which guns have X bullet velocity. Not an easy task.

And given how shitty H5's servers are, I really really don't want Infinite to use projectiles on top of that garbage. Projectile makes any game with players >50ms ping completely unplayable. I'm also inclined to agree with Beast here, while it may be a skill to master in theory, in reality it's often just guesswork and spamming bullets ahead of running targets. Plus this "skill" only really affects cross-mapping and BTB maps anyways. If you want projectile to affect gunfights on maps like Midship (not the H5 atrocity, the actual Middy) you'd have to make bullets travel so slowly that it becomes comical and just to force leading as a skill? Idk guys I'd rather just have a consistent, low aim assist hitscan rifle with a x2 zoom than experimenting with stuff like that in order to maybe force another layer of skill into the game.

Amen brother. 

Also the overwatch thing is justa dumb meme thing with him we have already explained how that's a misquote and why we laugh at OW shooting skill. Fun fact: the meta at the time of us saying OW requires minimal aim skill was 4 tank 2 heals. So think about that. 

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9 minutes ago, Riddler said:

It is more skillful because its two elements. Its literally mechanical plus mental where hitscan is just mechanical. If im 50% accurate and ur 50% accurate, we’re going 50:50 every time. If we add i can predict u better im winning more than 50% of the time. Yes i broke it down this simple because u cant quantitate it any other way. 

 

Its the same argument for powerups and weps again lol. It adds another element which separates people skillwise even more. 

The addition of something does not equate to added skill. It just adds a variable. Variables aren't inherently skillful. Like a jetpack in Reach

And let's not even get started on power weapons, lol. Last time we argued this, we literally argued into a stalemate of admitting power weapons were easy, while also acknowledging that the act of timing and obtaining them isn't exactly a skill, either. I could go for another round of it, but obtaining or using a rocket launcher does not separate you from a lesser, or stronger player, lol. Nothing about it is skillful.

2 minutes ago, Silos said:

I think you can have a more skillful predictive element.

"Skillful predictive" is an oxymoron, and "guesswork" and "prediction" are synonyms. You can't have a skillcurve in guessing.

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9 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Amen brother. 

Also the overwatch thing is justa dumb meme thing with him we have already explained how that's a misquote and why we laugh at OW shooting skill. Fun fact: the meta at the time of us saying OW requires minimal aim skill was 4 tank 2 heals. So think about that. 

You ever look back at times in your life appreciate the personal growth you've made since then?

 

yea me neither

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Fighting games are an entirely different genre lol. Where you can make guesses based on characters and their limited movesets and viable setups. Plus, again, it's an ENTIRELY different genre and I don't want to write an essay on why it's not even comparable. 

Predicting is still part of hitscan. You still have to track the person that is moving. You still have to guess where they are moving. You still have to predict their moves and you are stillrarning patterns as you play. It's just more consistent and isn't a guessing game at range. And just refer to Basu's posts about all the shit cuz it's exactly what I mean. You either have fast projectiles that are glorified hitscan and only affect long range or you get shit like h3. Slow bullets and a massive guessing game with gimped long range capabilities. Hitscan with lower mag works damn well. 

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29 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Fighting games are an entirely different genre lol. Where you can make guesses based on characters and their limited movesets and viable setups. Plus, again, it's an ENTIRELY different genre and I don't want to write an essay on why it's not even comparable. 

Predicting is still part of hitscan. You still have to track the person that is moving. You still have to guess where they are moving. You still have to predict their moves and you are stillrarning patterns as you play. It's just more consistent and isn't a guessing game at range. And just refer to Basu's posts about all the shit cuz it's exactly what I mean. You either have fast projectiles that are glorified hitscan and only affect long range or you get shit like h3. Slow bullets and a massive guessing game with gimped long range capabilities. Hitscan with lower mag works damn well. 

In most Halos your moveset is pretty limited. I think a better argument would be that with so many players it's hard to have any pattern recognition when you have no idea who you'll come across when going around a corner.

I feel like we're getting tangled in the weeds right now, Basu's post was great but got away from what I thought was the core of the argument other than his points about Midship and slowing down projectiles more which is fair. This is my interpretation of the argument so far. Riddler is saying projectile adds a predictive element to shooting. Beast said that you're just guessing and it's not skillful. I brought up predicting player behavior in other games, as well as in Halo. Beast feels comparing with other games isn't fair and responds with predicting is actually a skill with hitscan, but not a skill with projectile if you're at range due to it being inconsistent.

Does that sound right to everybody or does it sound like I'm being unfair? I already said that hitscan had predictive elements, I used it as one of my examples with Halo 5. I feel projectile at range has a higher skill ceiling in terms of predicting player movement because it's not just predicting their next move, it's guessing the next X amount of time in movement. With hitscan at any range or projectile close range it's "I think he'll move the other way after my next shot so I should move my reticule to his turn to adjust", with projectile at range it's more like "I think he'll move the other way and keep moving that way after my next shot so I need to move my reticule over him and ahead to adjust".

This is all assuming netcode is great or it's LAN.

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54 minutes ago, Basu said:

Plus this "skill" only really affects cross-mapping and BTB maps anyways. If you want projectile to affect gunfights on maps like Midship (not the H5 atrocity, the actual Middy) you'd have to make bullets travel so slowly that it becomes comical and just to force leading as a skill? Idk guys I'd rather just have a consistent, low aim assist hitscan rifle with a x2 zoom than experimenting with stuff like that in order to maybe force another layer of skill into the game.

I felt this was slightly different than the Beast/Ruddler debate. The point about needing extra indicators to show where bullets land is true, and your feelings about shooting not feeling good when projectile is fair as well even if I disagree. I'm not about to argue what you enjoy. As for networking, yeah it's a concern. All I can say is hopefully it's good if we get projectile.

For needing to slow down bullets though. I'm not necessarily imagining needing to have serious lead for every kill. Like Prisoner I don't lead a ton if at all depending on how far apart I am from my opponent. But I don't mind having some maps with long sightlines where you do have to lead, like Hang 'Em High.

Would that be a decent compromise? Fast bullets for close range but some long range maps that make it a factor. Or is projectile bullets just not something you'd ever want?

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You know who’s harder to hit, regardless of hitscan or projectile?  Smaller targets.  Give me that Miniaturize Power Up.

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5 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You could just say you want a quicker killing weapon, was my main point, lol. Because on average, most players are taking twice as many shots to kill their target.

That’s simply not true, at least at high levels of gameplay in later Halos. Pros in H5 are not taking anywhere near 10 shots to kill people in H5 or 8 shots in H3. Even the best players in CE are probably averaging around 6 shots to kill. I want Infinite to be like CE. So yeah, I want it to kill fast but I also want it to be hard. If Infinite is going to have a kill time as fast as CE then the utility can’t be as easy as it is in the Halos after CE.

Also, if “prediction” and “guesswork” are synonyms then I took stats class for nothing. 

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5 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

You could just say you want a quicker killing weapon, was my main point, lol. Because on average, most players are taking twice as many shots to kill their target.

That’s simply not true, at least at high levels of gameplay in later Halos. Pros in H5 are not taking anywhere near 10 shots to kill people in H5 or 8 shots in H3. Even the best players in CE are probably averaging around 6 shots to kill. I want Infinite to be like CE. So yeah, I want it to kill fast but I also want it to be hard. If Infinite is going to have a kill time as fast as CE then the utility can’t be as easy as it is in the Halos after CE.

Also, if “prediction” and “guesswork” are synonyms then I took stats class for nothing. 

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12 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

That’s simply not true, at least at high levels of gameplay in later Halos. Pros in H5 are not taking anywhere near 10 shots to kill people in H5 or 8 shots in H3. Even the best players in CE are probably averaging around 6 shots to kill. I want Infinite to be like CE. So yeah, I want it to kill fast but I also want it to be hard. If Infinite is going to have a kill time as fast as CE then the utility can’t be as easy as it is in the Halos after CE.

Also, if “prediction” and “guesswork” are synonyms then I took stats class for nothing. 

I should've reiterated and said they're taking a few shots over the perfect kill time. Obviously no one in nearly any Halo is hitting consistent 4s or 5s. Which was my main point in saying going for a weapon based on an inconsistent ratio isn't as good as "I want a weapon that kills in X amount of seconds and is difficult to use".

Aaaaaaaaand while I get it's hyperbolic, the application of predictions, hypotheses, and guesses in the real world differs from that of the gaming world. 

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