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Halo 4 is the first game where we started to get really brainfuck easy with power weapons like the Rail-gun and Saw etc, which incidentally, also has ordnance, which @TheIcePrincess prefers over the set weapon placement, so its actually impossible to tell what she wants. I don't get her argument against them because the stuff she hates and stuff she likes are super contradictory to them. She hates easy power weapons, but likes the system that lets you drop the easiest power weapons in the entire series directly to the player.

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6 minutes ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

Halo 4 is the first game where we started to get really brainfuck easy with power weapons like the Rail-gun and Saw etc, which incidentally, also has ordnance, which @TheIcePrincess prefers over the set weapon placement, so its actually impossible to tell what she wants. I don't get her argument against them because the stuff she hates and stuff she likes are super contradictory to them. She hates easy power weapons, but likes the system that lets you drop the easiest power weapons in the entire series directly to the player.

I prefer ordnance because it stops a reliance on Halo's largest flaws, those being numbers games in pushes for weapons that are literally designed to be guaranteed kills. The fact I prefer the system doesn't mean I like what's IN the system. Putting insane emphasis on that. Because I hate rockets and snipers in Halo 4 just as much as I do in CE, 2, 3, Reach, and 5. I just like the fact I won't be immediately buttfucked for a weapon's spawn cycle because I wasn't circumstantially able to accrue them.

I hate coming off as passive aggressive, because I'm not angry, nor trying to belittle you. But I literally went on a three paragraph tangent to you, about this. You specifically. How do you misconstrue a point so hard. Or draw the poorest conclusion. It's nuts.

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22 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I prefer ordnance because it stops a reliance on Halo's largest flaws, those being numbers games in pushes for weapons that are literally designed to be guaranteed kills. The fact I prefer the system doesn't mean I like what's IN the system. Putting insane emphasis on that. Because I hate rockets and snipers in Halo 4 just as much as I do in CE, 2, 3, Reach, and 5. I just like the fact I won't be immediately buttfucked for a weapon's spawn cycle because I wasn't circumstantially able to accrue them.

I hate coming off as passive aggressive, because I'm not angry, nor trying to belittle you. But I literally went on a three paragraph tangent to you, about this. You specifically. How do you misconstrue a point so hard. Or draw the poorest conclusion. It's nuts.

The biggest flaw with ordinance drops wasn’t even the weapons themselves within it, but the Lack of skill of obtaining them. In call of duty killstreaks/scorestreaks are obtained through kills, obj scoring, and assisted kills. Within this system are overpowered guaranteed kills with them. To balance this you must do all 3 things or depending on the mode 1 or the other and “stay alive”. 

Min halo 4 ordinance drops were given regardless if you stayed alive. If they had implemented this in halo, they wouldn’t be hated as much. 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I prefer ordnance because it stops a reliance on Halo's largest flaws, those being numbers games in pushes for weapons that are literally designed to be guaranteed kills.

That "flaw" is what Halo is based around. You're not guaranteed anything if you have a power weapon. This is not Perfect Dark where you have a Farsight that can insta-kill through walls across the map. You can still easily die with those weapons, especially if you are dumb with them.

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8 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I prefer ordnance because it stops a reliance on Halo's largest flaws, those being numbers games in pushes for weapons that are literally designed to be guaranteed kills. The fact I prefer the system doesn't mean I like what's IN the system. Putting insane emphasis on that. Because I hate rockets and snipers in Halo 4 just as much as I do in CE, 2, 3, Reach, and 5. I just like the fact I won't be immediately buttfucked for a weapon's spawn cycle because I wasn't circumstantially able to accrue them.

I hate coming off as passive aggressive, because I'm not angry, nor trying to belittle you. But I literally went on a three paragraph tangent to you, about this. You specifically. How do you misconstrue a point so hard. Or draw the poorest conclusion. It's nuts.

I agree with you on some of them being too strong and braindead easy. Recent games are the best example of this, but the strength isn't a power weapon design issue. The Rail gun/sniper/rockets etc are all braindead easy because of how badly sprint and spartan abilities fuck with weapon balance. I think this is what so many people miss when they don't understand why people don't like enhanced movement, because it has a massive ripple throughout the entire game that changes everything.

 

This leads in nicely to my next point, and my main reason for keeping power weapons, which up until know I had no idea how to word it, which isn't about the strength of power weapons but purely about how they influence pacing and flow of games. Power weapons make slayer bearable to play and watch as they act as pseudo objectives that encourage map movement, which stops it from being a complete snooze fest of sitting on the power position on the map all game. Likewise in objective modes like CTF, it also acts as an encouragement to continually move around the map and to continue playing the objective. They act as a tool to can break a defensive turtle, likewise, it stops it becoming a 1-cap then turtle the base hard. Same story in strong holds. Without power weapons just cap two bases and turtle them, theirs no threat of a powerful weapon that can break that turtle, so you don't need to move around the map to stop them from getting it. 

 

Everyone is focused on the immediate effect of what power weapons do, which is kill people, without considering the ripple effect their existence has on the rest of the games pacing and flow. Have you ever noticed how in the best maps the power weapon spawns are separate from the power positions on the map?

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1 hour ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

I agree with you on some of them being too strong and braindead easy. Recent games are the best example of this, but the strength isn't a power weapon design issue. The Rail gun/sniper/rockets etc are all braindead easy because of how badly sprint and spartan abilities fuck with weapon balance. I think this is what so many people miss when they don't understand why people don't like enhanced movement, because it has a massive ripple throughout the entire game that changes everything.

 

This leads in nicely to my next point, and my main reason for keeping power weapons, which up until know I had no idea how to word it, which isn't about the strength of power weapons but purely about how they influence pacing and flow of games. Power weapons make slayer bearable to play and watch as they act as pseudo objectives that encourage map movement, which stops it from being a complete snooze fest of sitting on the power position on the map all game. Likewise in objective modes like CTF, it also acts as an encouragement to continually move around the map and to continue playing the objective. They act as a tool to can break a defensive turtle, likewise, it stops it becoming a 1-cap then turtle the base hard. Same story in strong holds. Without power weapons just cap two bases and turtle them, theirs no threat of a powerful weapon that can break that turtle, so you don't need to move around the map to stop them from getting it. 

 

Everyone is focused on the immediate effect of what power weapons do, which is kill people, without considering the ripple effect their existence has on the rest of the games pacing and flow. Have you ever noticed how in the best maps the power weapon spawns are separate from the power positions on the map?

This. Power weapons are a, dare I say it...powerful motivation to move around the map. 

The idea though is to still make sure the weapons themselves arent ******edly easy at killing things to balance out the fact that they need to be in the game.

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@TheIcePrincess Enjoying Halo 4 and ordnance drops while also hating power weapons requires a level of cognitive dissonance on par with being a black klan leader. Seriously though, why don’t you play more CE? It’s eveything you seem to want. It’s got a strong utility that gives you individual slaying power. There’s only one true power weapon in the game (rockets) and they always spawn in a contestable location at a precise time. It’s played 2v2 so numbers games and team shotting aren’t such a problem. I read your explanations of why you don’t like power weapons and if I didn’t know any better I’d think you were a CE die hard and then you go and blow my mind by playing Halo 4. I’m flabbergasted.

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How is it that someone can literally explain their opinion so many times and go into detail yet STILL have this many people not get it at all. Jesus Christ. 

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29 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

How is it that someone can literally explain their opinion so many times and go into detail yet STILL have this many people not get it at all. Jesus Christ. 

Well ya see that’s the problem. I think I do get it. I understand the complaints against power weapons. They are valid complaints. But if that’s how you feel about power weapons in halo then CE should be your go to halo. It does a far better job of minimizing the issues of power weapons than halo 4.

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9 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

Well ya see that’s the problem. I think I do get it. I understand the complaints against power weapons. They are valid complaints. But if that’s how you feel about power weapons in halo then CE should be your go to halo. It does a far better job of minimizing the issues of power weapons than halo 4.

Except it has other issues as well. Like more frequent power weapon spawns. And nuke grenades. And not as many pistol duels. And only slayer. And 4v4 sucks. 

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2v2 CE has tons of games where it's mostly pistol. It also has a weapon sandbox that isn't garbage tier. MCC CE has a lot more sniper because it connects better than the pistol. It's also easier than the real deal. Power ups are also mitigated by the pistol. OS isn't a guaranteed kill, and you can be turned on with camo. If you get hit by nades constantly learn how to avoid them. It's a skill in CE to dodge nades because only well thrown ones should hit you often. If you make rockets miss once you should be fine to kill them. Don't let yourself be an easy rocket kill. If they have camo rockets contest better next time.

 

Mobile sucks

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Should halo Infinite have armor abilities(pick up only) it’s somethung that doesn’t break map design since it’ll work a lot like halo 3s equipment(jist less op). Tbh equipment was only hated by comp players because most of the equipment was op. Bubble shield, regen.

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36 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Should halo Infinite have armor abilities(pick up only) it’s somethung that doesn’t break map design since it’ll work a lot like halo 3s equipment(jist less op). Tbh equipment was only hated by comp players because most of the equipment was op. Bubble shield, regen.

No. Add more interesting power ups and give weapons niche properties. It's just another gimmick and even if you manage to create a few balanced and skillful pieces of equipment, adding one piece of equipment always has the slippery slope effect of requiring more pieces of equipment in order to justify mapping an entire button to it. And then it's not long until we're back at bullshit like regens and bubbles. 

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56 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Should halo Infinite have armor abilities(pick up only) it’s somethung that doesn’t break map design since it’ll work a lot like halo 3s equipment(jist less op). Tbh equipment was only hated by comp players because most of the equipment was op. Bubble shield, regen.

It'd be fun for non comp modes. As long as you can visually indentify what ability a person has.

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3 hours ago, LI Mr X IL said:

@TheIcePrincess Enjoying Halo 4 and ordnance drops while also hating power weapons requires a level of cognitive dissonance on par with being a black klan leader. Seriously though, why don’t you play more CE? It’s eveything you seem to want. It’s got a strong utility that gives you individual slaying power. There’s only one true power weapon in the game (rockets) and they always spawn in a contestable location at a precise time. It’s played 2v2 so numbers games and team shotting aren’t such a problem. I read your explanations of why you don’t like power weapons and if I didn’t know any better I’d think you were a CE die hard and then you go and blow my mind by playing Halo 4. I’m flabbergasted.

Because CE has super nuke rockets that are their own extreme, alongside quick weapon and power up spawn times. The only good thing about it to me is the pistol. And that pistol means nothing when I can be nuked by nades, or rocks, or have that power neutered by power ups like OS that I simply can't know about, sometimes. It's just not really fun or captivating in general, even if the issues are fewer, because they're more extreme. 

9 hours ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

This leads in nicely to my next point, and my main reason for keeping power weapons, which up until know I had no idea how to word it, which isn't about the strength of power weapons but purely about how they influence pacing and flow of games. Power weapons make slayer bearable to play and watch as they act as pseudo objectives that encourage map movement, which stops it from being a complete snooze fest of sitting on the power position on the map all game. Likewise in objective modes like CTF, it also acts as an encouragement to continually move around the map and to continue playing the objective. They act as a tool to can break a defensive turtle, likewise, it stops it becoming a 1-cap then turtle the base hard. Same story in strong holds. Without power weapons just cap two bases and turtle them, theirs no threat of a powerful weapon that can break that turtle, so you don't need to move around the map to stop them from getting it. 

Everyone is focused on the immediate effect of what power weapons do, which is kill people, without considering the ripple effect their existence has on the rest of the games pacing and flow. Have you ever noticed how in the best maps the power weapon spawns are separate from the power positions on the map?

I don't get this argument that somehow they keep people encouraged to move around a map, as if an objective in any competitive environment isn't enough incentive. Somehow. Ironically, I'd argue they do the opposite. I sure as hell know I'm not moving when power weapons are on the map in the enemy's hands because I cannot contest them. I don't get why people move and feed them, either. You're not winning against rockets. Whereas on maps like Truth in Halo 5, I will literally fly into basement within 5 seconds because I only have to worry about camo, and burning it is pretty easy. It's power weaponless and movement freedom is so evident on that map with how people will literally move.

Likewise, as Beast said, turtling in CTF isn't a viable strat, and that only becomes more emphasized in strongholds where you NEED to keep moving or you'll lose capture points. I don't get how you think it's just a "two cap and win by turtling" scenario when people can literally still kill each other and break setups by pure coordination without power ups/weapons and would be able to easier when they're not being contested by items that gravely overpower them. The also ironic thing here is you're more incentivized to turtle when you have a one hit kill weapon, like a rocket or a shotgun. Because you can literally wipe the floor with anyone coming to challenge you because of your sheer power in relation to someone else's. You don't NEED to move in that case. People have to come to you, so you LOSE that incentive. And it's not like the enemy moving closer to you is a bad thing when you're so powerful, lol. You just shove them back to spawn with whatever god-weapon you have, and they lose ground they covered.

17 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

The biggest flaw with ordinance drops wasn’t even the weapons themselves within it, but the Lack of skill of obtaining them. In call of duty killstreaks/scorestreaks are obtained through kills, obj scoring, and assisted kills. Within this system are overpowered guaranteed kills with them. To balance this you must do all 3 things or depending on the mode 1 or the other and “stay alive”. 

Min halo 4 ordinance drops were given regardless if you stayed alive. If they had implemented this in halo, they wouldn’t be hated as much. 

 

Ironically, I had no issue with how they were obtained in Halo 4, being like Modern Warfare 3's scorestreaks. At most, I'd have slowed ordnance progression down, but giving emphasis to kills, then obj, then assists was gucci. Everything could get you score but not everything is equal in weight.

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2 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Because CE has super nuke rockets that are their own extreme, alongside quick weapon and power up spawn times. The only good thing about it to me is the pistol. And that pistol means nothing when I can be nuked by nades, or rocks, or have that power neutered by power ups like OS that I simply can't know about, sometimes. It's just not really fun or captivating in general, even if the issues are fewer, because they're more extreme. 

I don't get this argument that somehow they keep people encouraged to move around a map, as if an objective in any competitive environment isn't enough incentive. Somehow. Ironically, I'd argue they do the opposite. I sure as hell know I'm not moving when power weapons are on the map in the enemy's hands because I cannot contest them. I don't get why people move and feed them, either. You're not winning against rockets. Whereas on maps like Truth in Halo 5, I will literally fly into basement within 5 seconds because I only have to worry about camo, and burning it is pretty easy. It's power weaponless and movement freedom is so evident on that map with how people will literally move.

 

You do know about OS if you time it and play well. Even if you somehow miss it you should still know immediately when you start shooting the player. Every gun bar the needler and plasma pistol can be extremely deadly in CE in its own way. 

As for why people move when you know the other team has rockets... well people actually can, in fact, die with rockets for starters. It isn't actually guaranteed. You still have to position and play well with them. This is actually my problem with the overall argument because power weapons actually are not free kills in most Halo games. Next you have to think about the situation at hand. Do you want to get rocketed on their green on the pit or do you want to just afk in your base scared to move, give them all of the initiative, let them position exactly how they want to, get rocketed, watch that team instantly pull the flag and continue knowing they have rockets? These types of decisions are also why we need them. Not only did you need to time the rockets and be coordinated enough to try to get them now that they're on the map you have to follow a decision tree on how to either avoid and/or contest the rocket player, support the rocket player if they're on your team, keep track of how many rockets are left, if they're loaded or not, or position and push at the right time if you are the rocket player. Its making every player on the map think twice at a high level. Now that can change a bit in slayer on that particular map and that's due to map design but the fact is the only way to guarantee you lose to the rocket player is to play to lose to the rocket player like you seem to be describing 

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I won't deny that an objective is a better movement incentive, but I'm struggling to see how Rockets make turtling an easier strategy in a symmetric gametype. If you sit back with a power weapon, you sacrifice control over future power weapon spawns; the situation will snowball and the defenders will be overwhelmed. The exception is braindead weapons like the Sniper, which serve no purpose imo. They're meant to punish you for camping, just like grenades, but let's not open that can of Lekgolo again.

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The problem with ordnance was that it was literally a dice roll. One dude gets grenades or something while another gets an incineration cannon. Didn't the pro settings at the time change this to only offer the same rewards each time you got it?

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11 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

The problem with ordnance was that it was literally a dice roll. One dude gets grenades or something while another gets an incineration cannon. Didn't the pro settings at the time change this to only offer the same rewards each time you got it?

The options were changed to thruster, hardlight, and hologram. Jetpack was the only other armor ability, which was found on Station 9 (the GOAT map). I think I saw hologram used once, about as many times as I saw someone get killed by the falling ordnance.

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48 minutes ago, Gobias said:

I won't deny that an objective is a better movement incentive, but I'm struggling to see how Rockets make turtling an easier strategy in a symmetric gametype. If you sit back with a power weapon, you sacrifice control over future power weapon spawns; the situation will snowball and the defenders will be overwhelmed. The exception is braindead weapons like the Sniper, which serve no purpose imo. They're meant to punish you for camping, just like grenades, but let's not open that can of Lekgolo again.

I guess it would depend on the map. Something like the Pit it wouldn't be too hard to regain the ground lost from turtling vs beaver creek where rockets don't have as much of an advantage in such an open map with more options for verticality.

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A good example would be to watch 08/09 FB to see how not moving can go really really wrong in the end. I know that's just H3 but their team was so insistent for years on just playing very slowly/giving up the initiative and they had about a million tragedies and game 5 losses over it. Generally the only time its better in Halo to do nothing and sit back outside of really situational moments is when something is REALLY wrong with the map. Its also just cool to watch how the story ends in 2010 after seeing the first two years

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Ultimately though I can appreciate the Ice Princess’s sentiment that the game should still be functional without an intentionally OP incentive like the rocket launcher—if that’s not a misrepresentation. It just depends on having a fast-killing utility weapon with a decent skill curve, decent maps, and a good supply of objective gametypes, all of which were at least partially missing at Halo 5’s launch (and before) or still are. That’s the common ground in this conversation.

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1 hour ago, Gobias said:

Ultimately though I can appreciate the Ice Princess’s sentiment that the game should still be functional without an intentionally OP incentive like the rocket launcher—if that’s not a misrepresentation. It just depends on having a fast-killing utility weapon with a decent skill curve, decent maps, and a good supply of objective gametypes, all of which were at least partially missing at Halo 5’s launch (and before) or still are. That’s the common ground in this conversation.

There's certainly a truth to her argument. The delta between power weapons and the starting weapon has increased with each game and especially from Reach on forward things have really gotten out of hand. But as always she takes things 10 steps too far ("let's remove all vehicles and nades from the game") by asking for the complete removal of all on-map weapons. What Infinite needs is a stronger starting weapon, a good strafe and actually hard to use weapon pickups. It's really not that complicated.

Also objective >> slayer any day of the week.

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