Jump to content
CyReN

Halo Infinite Discussion

Recommended Posts

1. Escaping fights: All the abilities are defensive by nature and you will never use them if you are up a shot in a fight. They raise the kill time across the board by a factor of at least two.

 

This is the most frustrating part of it for me.

 

Why is my gun being lowered in Halo for any reason ever? I have 834583945873490584 other games where that happens, I don't want it in Halo.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

This is the most frustrating part of it for me.

 

Why is my gun being lowered in Halo for any reason ever? I have 834583945873490584 other games where that happens, I don't want it in Halo.

Yes! The run OR gun aspect of it is the worst by far. Even CoD and Titanfall have perks that allow you to shoot while sprinting nowadays, and thrusting, wallrunning, sliding and double jumping don't lower the gun either in those games. Idk why 343 was so adamant to make everything besides slide lower your gun in this game. Even stabilize follows this, by making it impossible to ADS in mid-air without becoming a sitting duck. So stupid. This "guns down" mentality makes the game clunky, it ruins the flow, it messes with the balance and it's just plain not fun to play like that.
  • Upvote (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post

The abilities definitely raise the skill gap, I don't think one can deny that. Doesn't mean they aren't stupid, as there are still major issues with them:

 

1. Escaping fights: All the abilities are defensive by nature and you will never use them if you are up a shot in a fight. They raise the kill time across the board by a factor of at least two.

 

2. Detrimental effects on map design. It is already impossible to balance a map around base speed and sprint, now add 5 other abilities that have an even stronger impact on player movement and maps just become a total maze with people flying everywhere.

 

3. It is physically exhausting to use them. H5 feels sweaty no matter what gametype, even silly stuff like Infection and Grifball is a chore now. Moving around the map at the normal speed (walking is not normal speed in H5) should never be so demanding that you need a custom controller to do it effectively.

 

4. They raise the skill floor: Gone are the days of introducing a friend to Halo in a few minutes and see them having fun. Time to get out the drawing board, sketch the abilities and make them memorize what button combo activates which ability. You not only need to be an athlete to be decent at H5, you also need a Ph.D.

 

Add to this: They are made completely irrelevant with a Warzone armor mod

 

It is a crime these aren't vanilla settings, nothing short.

Share this post


Link to post

Its a kappa but you're not wrong. Movement in H5, on the whole, does take more skill. Not necessarily positioning but just having the thought process and talent to move around the map like the top players is harder in H5. I just don't think it makes a good or fun game.

Yeah. My point was that the two movement systems accomplish essentially the same thing—getting you to where you want to be—but one has extra hurdles thrown in.

 

I’m kind of perplexed thinking about what is the audience that complicated movement is marketed to. It’s clearly not the beginners since the extra button presses raise the skill floor without benefit to them. It’s clearly not the pros because they’ve never been in favor of it. And I’m led to believe it’s not the mid-section of the skill distribution because then we might have a healthy, vibrant online game.

 

I honestly don’t know. There’s no way this was appealing to new fans, though.

  • Upvote (+1) 5

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah. My point was that the two movement systems accomplish essentially the same thing—getting you to where you want to be—but one has extra hurdles thrown in.

 

I’m kind of perplexed thinking about what is the audience that complicated movement is marketed to. It’s clearly not the beginners since the extra button presses raise the skill floor without benefit to them. It’s clearly not the pros because they’ve never been in favor of it. And I’m led to believe it’s not the mid-section of the skill distribution because then we might have a healthy, vibrant online game.

 

I honestly don’t know. There’s no way this was appealing to new fans, though.

I can personally vouch for trying and failing to bring 2 new fans into the franchise with 5. I’ve been reluctant to try again.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah. My point was that the two movement systems accomplish essentially the same thing—getting you to where you want to be—but one has extra hurdles thrown in.

 

I’m kind of perplexed thinking about what is the audience that complicated movement is marketed to. It’s clearly not the beginners since the extra button presses raise the skill floor without benefit to them. It’s clearly not the pros because they’ve never been in favor of it. And I’m led to believe it’s not the mid-section of the skill distribution because then we might have a healthy, vibrant online game.

 

I honestly don’t know. There’s no way this was appealing to new fans, though.

Really? I haven't browsed casual Halo discussions much in the last three years, apart from Twitch chats, but it seems like the only real criticism of it has come from competitive fans. To me, it seems to obviously appeal to the casual players and campaign fans almost universally. I think they feel respected by the developers expecting them to understand it, and that it gives them a taste of competitive-feeling gameplay, similarly to the feel of low-level CoD. That actually might slightly support Halo esports in a kind of twisted way, although obviously not enough to be worth it.

 

I no longer think the conception of the "skill gap" or the "skill floor" is useful to the discussion. Rather, I think the discussion should shift to "the plays" (as in, the "big plays" that are made in a match). Clip moments, in other words. The button complexity of H5 creates a series of micro-plays for the lower levels, for example. These "plays" are the real core of both addictive casual play and addictive competitive play, and to realize this means to abandon the "skill gap" idea for the "plays-per-game" idea. The real question, then, is how you correctly line up the Skill 1-Skill 50 curve with the levels of plays that are suitable for that skill level, and to do so in a way that won't interfere with the higher or lower skill levels. Mostly, I think it's the lower "play-making features" that interfere with the higher, rather than vice versa. A lot of what goes into a "big play" is also aesthetic and characterological, particularly at the lower levels, with the concept of "feeling like a Spartan", for example, being amplified through Reach's respectable and refined grey and skeletal visual direction, or through sounds and indicators and feedback. At the higher levels, "feeling like a Spartan" doesn't even register as a concept.

 

But returning to the original point, I suppose new players would require that a game not be dead. Old casual players seem to be the ones that like H5.

Share this post


Link to post

Fortnite has a higher skill floor than any game I've ever played and it's the biggest game in the world.

Depends on what you mean by floor. It's harder to win in Fortnite than a lot of games, but getting kills and stuff is not that difficult. It's also free, has tons of cosmetics,  and is almost the only game the largest streamer in the world plays. 

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Depends on what you mean by floor. It's harder to win in Fortnite than a lot of games, but getting kills and stuff is not that difficult. It's also free, has tons of cosmetics, and is almost the only game the largest streamer in the world plays.

Just learning how to even play the game lol. If you don't watch any gameplay and just pick the game up it takes a looooong time to even get average. Lol it's more of a statement about how complex games can still be big. Of course all the other aspects contribute more to Fortnite's popularity with F2P probably being the biggest. But the feeling of improvement you get in that game after grinding it out probably helps out a little.

Share this post


Link to post

Just learning how to even play the game lol. If you don't watch any gameplay and just pick the game up it takes a looooong time to even get average. Lol it's more of a statement about how complex games can still be big. Of course all the other aspects contribute more to Fortnite's popularity with F2P probably being the biggest. But the feeling of improvement you get in that game after grinding it out probably helps out a little.

I think the stuff outside of gameplay helps more than the gameplay. Free, can run on most any pc, cross plat so you can play with friends, cosmetics, gets you into games quickly, etc. It can take some time to get average at the game but I still think the skill floor isn't that high because you can get a kill relatively easy. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Fortnite has a higher skill floor than any game I've ever played and it's the biggest game in the world.

You're hilarious

Share this post


Link to post

You're hilarious

 

He's not wrong. Sure, building and shit like that is "easy to do" when you're playing by yourself but it's difficult to get to a point where you can do it extremely fluently in the middle of gun fights, keep swapping weapons to keep on your attack, building walls and cutting out holes so that you can walk through, etc.. There's hella elements to just playing the game. Obviously, like any game, you get used to it after a while but the skill floor in that game is relatively high to be honest. 

 

I don't think he meant it's the highest skill floor in any game ever lol.. He's just speaking in relative terms.

  • Upvote (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post

He's not wrong. Sure, building and shit like that is "easy to do" when you're playing by yourself but it's difficult to get to a point where you can do it extremely fluently in the middle of gun fights, keep swapping weapons to keep on your attack, building walls and cutting out holes so that you can walk through, etc.. There's hella elements to just playing the game. Obviously, like any game, you get used to it after a while but the skill floor in that game is relatively high to be honest.

 

I don't think he meant it's the highest skill floor in any game ever lol.. He's just speaking in relative terms.

Exactly. Like of you stick someone in a game and don't tell them anything they won't even know how to land out of the bus. And that's just the first step lol. The gameplay itself has so many things to learn if you just wanna be baseline competent. It takes a long time to just get acclimated to the way the game plays. And having only one life a game makes it take even longer to learn lol. Like I've tried to teach people how to play the game and mannnnnn does it take a LOT of explaining.
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

You're hilarious

He’s spot on. The skill gap between say me and ninja or whoever is insanely big!! Where as say any halo game I could get at least a couple kills, but on fortnite?? I ain’t getting shit.

Share this post


Link to post

Regarding the Fortnite discussion and how it’s still popular despite the relatively high skill floor... I think at least one difference is that the main goal in Fortnite isn’t to be good at the game, it’s to win at it. You can win the game without getting any kills or being good at building. And besides just winning, you can get close to winning pretty easily if you’re dealt the right hand. Do you think the majority who gamble at poker are actively trying to get better? There’s definitely a skill floor to overcome, but I think they’re just in it for the excitement and the stakes. Same with Fortnite. It’s really easy to brush off your shortcomings because losing is really quick—you can just blame the hand you were dealt, maybe they found better weapons idk. In Halo, your shortcomings can snowball repeatedly and in quick succession against just slightly more experienced players, so you are more likely to get frustrated at obstacles to your success. And I think many people, even those competent with the movement mechanics, would agree that Halo 5 is frustrating in part because of them. In Fortnite, or a more competitive example like Rocket League, those initial hurdles build into fundamental skills that are relevant to high level play and that aren’t just add-ons to keep your thumbs busy.

 

Really? I haven't browsed casual Halo discussions much in the last three years, apart from Twitch chats, but it seems like the only real criticism of it has come from competitive fans. To me, it seems to obviously appeal to the casual players and campaign fans almost universally. I think they feel respected by the developers expecting them to understand it, and that it gives them a taste of competitive-feeling gameplay, similarly to the feel of low-level CoD. That actually might slightly support Halo esports in a kind of twisted way, although obviously not enough to be worth it.

 

I no longer think the conception of the "skill gap" or the "skill floor" is useful to the discussion. Rather, I think the discussion should shift to "the plays" (as in, the "big plays" that are made in a match). Clip moments, in other words. The button complexity of H5 creates a series of micro-plays for the lower levels, for example. These "plays" are the real core of both addictive casual play and addictive competitive play, and to realize this means to abandon the "skill gap" idea for the "plays-per-game" idea. The real question, then, is how you correctly line up the Skill 1-Skill 50 curve with the levels of plays that are suitable for that skill level, and to do so in a way that won't interfere with the higher or lower skill levels. Mostly, I think it's the lower "play-making features" that interfere with the higher, rather than vice versa. A lot of what goes into a "big play" is also aesthetic and characterological, particularly at the lower levels, with the concept of "feeling like a Spartan", for example, being amplified through Reach's respectable and refined grey and skeletal visual direction, or through sounds and indicators and feedback. At the higher levels, "feeling like a Spartan" doesn't even register as a concept.

 

But returning to the original point, I suppose new players would require that a game not be dead. Old casual players seem to be the ones that like H5.

From what I can see, the general consensus among non-competitive Halo 5 players is that the game feels sweaty. Usually this is attributed to the game supposedly being catered towards the competitive community. It’s kind of sick because clearly we also want a game that can just be enjoyed casually. I think the sweatiness is a direct result of the weapons and abilities, since it’s easy to deal damage at any range but harder to finish kills before someone thrusts away.

 

Your second paragraph is an interesting concept. But you did answer what I would have brought up, that those low-level plays interfere with higher-level play. A prime example is how easy snapshots are with the sniper. That’s something that should be a “big play” for every Halo player, not just the ones who can barely hit a scoped-in shot anyway.

 

Previously if arena gametypes seemed to bland for a player because they weren’t good enough to use the precision weapons or control the map, they could just go into BTB. I think that’s a perfectly fine solution that 343 unfortunately removed from the game at launch. And if we ever want our version of Halo to thrive, we’d better hope some new people out there find it at least remotely fun. I think it’s more effective to make an experience that gets better as you improve, rather than one that has a sweet spot right after you learn how to be competent with the movement but before you get bored of how the game plays when people get sweaty. Part of the reason why Halo 2 was addictive for me back in the day was that I could feel myself improve every time and get closer to my friends who had played way more Xbox. That’s still why I play (H1 these days), except now I’m better than my friends.

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

Halo Infinite should launch with the Match Composer instead of any social playlists. its the way forward to handle social match making. 

  • Upvote (+1) 6

Share this post


Link to post

I think you guys are overthinking Fortnite's success. Fortnite's mechanical complexity probably has little to do with its success; it derives its success from being a fulfilling and unique social experience, a story with stakes and real people. All battle royale type games strive for this experience, it just so happens that Fortnite was one of the first to reach a level of quality that spread to consoles while not also being incompetently made. Its not necessarily popular because its "great", its popular because its "good enough" to embody the experience people want to have. Skill floor is a meaningful factor in how well a BR game does, but Fortnite's runaway success as a social experience is a massive confounding variable in our judgement of how a "casual" audience responds to higher skill floors.

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

Halo Infinite should launch with the Match Composer instead of any social playlists. its the way forward to handle social match making. 

Yesssssssssssssssss, do agree. Get the fuck out with dumb limited playlists and just have an official set of gametypes, maps and shit for people to select and play. Jumping into the match composer and only searching CTF would be god-tier. And since it's not super large like MCC, we could maybe even strive for a map filter, so you could literally have what would be Infinite's equivalent of consistently searching for Midship, or Coli/Fathom/Truth CTF. Ten times better than the gross playlist selection.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Yesssssssssssssssss, do agree. Get the fuck out with dumb limited playlists and just have an official set of gametypes, maps and shit for people to select and play. Jumping into the match composer and only searching CTF would be god-tier. And since it's not super large like MCC, we could maybe even strive for a map filter, so you could literally have what would be Infinite's equivalent of consistently searching for Midship, or Coli/Fathom/Truth CTF. Ten times better than the gross playlist selection.

 

 

You can setup any custom game you want in Halo 5, leave the game open, and anybody browsing the "Customs Browser" will be able to see and join your match.

 

You probably already know this.  But my point is that having a map filter would narrow down the pool of potential opponents quite a bit... resulting in long wait times for matches in matchmaking.

 

I think 343 is going in the right idea with their "Competitive" section of playlists in MCC's latest iteration, except for Halo 4 not having a playlist in the category.

 

I'm not sure what the ideal setup for the "Social" section of playlists would be.  Halo 5 does a decent job, although they rotate playlists out occasionally.  I'm particularly purterbed that I haven't been able to play TEAM SNIPERS in Halo 5 in like half a fucking year!

Share this post


Link to post

Fortnite has a higher skill floor than any game I've ever played and it's the biggest game in the world.

I came in second the very first time I ever played it... Pure luck. Luck can be a great equalizer when it comes to making a game appeal on a causal level.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.