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CyReN

Halo Infinite Discussion

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I guess agree to disagree on the P2Rank stuff. You're right that it ultimately means nothing so I'm gonna leave it at that.

 

2nd paragraph strikes me as odd. Are you aware that in H3 you actually had to win to get XP? (I'm not talking MCCs nonexistent progression system here). There was none of this participation trophy garbage we've been fed since Reach. Plus Matchmaking wasn't a complete shitfest back then so you couldn't just get a party together and farm WZ and BTB like nowadays. Competition could be fierce depending on your party's skill. Because you had to win to get XP, people actually TRIED to win even in unranked objective gametypes, a totally foreign concept in shooters nowadays.

 

And the notion that H3 is super casual and not skill intensive is laughable. Compared to what? It had the 2nd best ranking system in the series, the best matchmaking and a higher skill gap than anything that had come out since, bar ZBNS Reach and maybe niche stuff like GoldPro and Evolved settings.

It's not really laughable, and I'm not really comparing it to anything. It's just not really skilltaking. Not a bad thing. The game had broken gunplay, equipment, and one of its few saving graces was a lack of nukenades, party restrictions, and that rank system. So what if you win when the game itself isn't a massive trial of skill and your gun isn't properly consistent. That good ranking system went to waste when the game's basic gameplay was shit, lol.

 

I also find the notion that people don't try to win in unranked obj playlists, even now, utterly hilarious. Halo 5 and even MCC has people full partying fucking social playlists to win, let alone ranked ones. Shit's not foreign, and it sucks, lmao.

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It's not really laughable, and I'm not really comparing it to anything. It's just not really skilltaking. Not a bad thing. The game had broken gunplay, equipment, and one of its few saving graces was a lack of nukenades, party restrictions, and that rank system. So what if you win when the game itself isn't a massive trial of skill and your gun isn't properly consistent. That good ranking system went to waste when the game's basic gameplay was shit, lol.

 

Okay? Then what console shooter does take skill in your opinion? You can't say it's casual and skillfree in a vacuum. IMO H3 gets almost everything about a competitive shooter right. Now before you reply with "spread lul", I know it's not a perfect game by any means, but honestly I can't think of a more competitive console FPS than H3, aside from.

 

 

I also find the notion that people don't try to win in unranked obj playlists, even now, utterly hilarious. Halo 5 and even MCC has people full partying fucking social playlists to win, let alone ranked ones. Shit's not foreign, and it sucks, lmao.

Of course it's not as black and white as that. But ever since Halo adopted the CoD-esque progression system where you ignore the flag for the entire game and still rank up, the average player's mindset has shifted drastically. Of course people in general still try to win, I'm not denying that, but the will to sacrifice one's K/D to go for a bomb or flag just isn't really there anymore in most games. I think anyone who plays BTB a lot can confirm this.

 

Party chat is surely also to blame for this, as no one communicates anymore, but I mostly blame the absence of a solid rewards for winning games. And I don't think this is a "kids nowadays" problem, as in games like Overwatch people actually try hard as fuck to win even in Quickplay and Arcade, because there's a shiny reward for it at the end.

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Okay? Then what console shooter does take skill in your opinion? You can't say it's casual and skillfree in a vacuum. IMO H3 gets almost everything about a competitive shooter right. Now before you reply with "spread lul", I know it's not a perfect game by any means, but honestly I can't think of a more competitive console FPS than H3, aside from H2 of course.

 

 

 

 

Of course it's not as black and white as that. But ever since Halo adopted the CoD-esque progression system where you ignore the flag for the entire game and still rank up, the average player's mindset has shifted drastically. Of course people in general still try to win, I'm not denying that, but the will to sacrifice one's K/D to go for a bomb or flag just isn't really there anymore in most games. I think anyone who plays BTB a lot can confirm this.

 

Party chat is surely also to blame for this, as no one communicates anymore, but I mostly blame the absence of a solid rewards for winning games. And I don't think this is a "kids nowadays" problem, as in games like Overwatch people actually try hard as fuck to win even in Quickplay and Arcade, because there's a shiny reward for it at the end.

Yes! Detaching XP from success has been detrimental to player behavior. As has every commendation system.

 

When you give players an opportunity to have “little wins” outside of the goal of the gametypes, you provide an incentive to ignore the objective.

 

It sucks because now people associate determination to win with “sweatiness” and people insist that playing to have fun and playing to win are mutually exclusive. What ever happened to having fun competing? What ever happen to “win or lose, it’s how you play the game”?

 

If Halo 4 was a good enough social experiment on what NOT to do, then the shenanigans with Achilles in Halo 5 should be THE cautionary tale. Nothing screams “find ways to exploit the game to the detriment of the intended experience” like tying rewards to frivolous acts of repetition instead of success within the intended gameplay loop.

 

Why go with a design that guaruntees people will farm instead of having fun playing each gamemode as intended? instead of stupid shit like “collectively get X Spartan charge kills” or “get X hydra kills” , why not “win X amount of ranked games with Company members”?

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Okay? Then what console shooter does take skill in your opinion? You can't say it's casual and skillfree in a vacuum. IMO H3 gets almost everything about a competitive shooter right. Now before you reply with "spread lul", I know it's not a perfect game by any means, but honestly I can't think of a more competitive console FPS than H3, aside from.

 

Of course it's not as black and white as that. But ever since Halo adopted the CoD-esque progression system where you ignore the flag for the entire game and still rank up, the average player's mindset has shifted drastically. Of course people in general still try to win, I'm not denying that, but the will to sacrifice one's K/D to go for a bomb or flag just isn't really there anymore in most games. I think anyone who plays BTB a lot can confirm this.

 

Party chat is surely also to blame for this, as no one communicates anymore, but I mostly blame the absence of a solid rewards for winning games. And I don't think this is a "kids nowadays" problem, as in games like Overwatch people actually try hard as fuck to win even in Quickplay and Arcade, because there's a shiny reward for it at the end.

Except you can entirely define "skillful" in a vacuum environment by some objective merits. Like the consistency of your weapons, which doesn't need to be compared to something else to be shown as a good or bad thing. You can entirely say Halo 3 is super casual in a vacuum because of this shit, because stuff like inconsistent weaponry is bad, regardless of the game you play. It's always shit to not have your weapon work, precisely, 100% of the time. And yunno, the game is an FPS. First person shooter. And you can't 100% rely on your own main genre mechanic to work, lol. So, Halo 3 "gets everything right" except for your fucking gun working properly. GG there. And stuff like that creates problems that extend wayyyy past the actual competitive scene. Like BTB, where it makes you essentially useless against vehicles. Putting an emphasis on one of Halo's worst mechanics. Braindead vehicles. 

 

However, I wouldn't know which shooter would take a great amount of skill in my head. It's very rare to not have some sort of garbage there. Be it inconsistency in mechanics, overpowered or stupidly braindead mechanics, the like. I wasn't really arguing for a specific game by saying Halo 3 sucks at a competitive level. I don't really give a shit about them, lol.

 

And the second paragraph just shifts into anecdotes. Not that I should've argued them in the first place, but there's literally no precise or proper method to prove this. I've seen tons of obj kids in Halo jump strongholds and gain tons of caps, over holding a proper setup. And they sacrifice K/D to a hilarious extent for it. And we've lost in spite of it. But, as I said, just feels super anecdotal, and both could slingshot examples back and forth without going anywhere.

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Halo wars is the most skillful halo title and I for one hope 343 take inspiration from it for halo 6: infinty

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Halo wars is the most skillful halo title and I for one hope 343 take inspiration from it for halo 6: infinty

It's a bottom of the barrel, rudimentary RTS and you're probably right, even if you're being ironic about it.

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It's a bottom of the barrel, rudimentary RTS and you're probably right, even if you're being ironic about it.

 

bingo

 

The funny thing is, if they had made the game with PC in mind, then catered the controls for console after instead of the other way around, it probably would be.

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Just drop the fps genre and make h6 an rts.

 

Change my mind.

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Just drop the fps genre and make h6 an rts.

 

Change my mind.

You can't make an RTS that's as good as StarCraft 2, so it'd be pointless to even try.

 

I do actually think the reasoning I just lined out above is why we don't see many serious attempts at making RTS games anymore.

 

Like other than the occasional mobile game, Halo Wars 2, and AoE 2 HD, nothing is really happening with the genre.

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It's not really laughable, and I'm not really comparing it to anything. It's just not really skilltaking. Not a bad thing. The game had broken gunplay, equipment, and one of its few saving graces was a lack of nukenades, party restrictions, and that rank system. So what if you win when the game itself isn't a massive trial of skill and your gun isn't properly consistent. That good ranking system went to waste when the game's basic gameplay was shit, lol.

 

I also find the notion that people don't try to win in unranked obj playlists, even now, utterly hilarious. Halo 5 and even MCC has people full partying fucking social playlists to win, let alone ranked ones. Shit's not foreign, and it sucks, lmao.

It's hilarious when someone that isn't even close to reaching the skill ceiling in any of the games talk about skill gap.  

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Stronghold Crusader was the GOAT RTS. Change my mind.

I liked it until I played it online and figured out the only viable strategy is catapults. 

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It's hilarious when someone that isn't even close to reaching the skill ceiling in any of the games talk about skill gap.  

It's hilarious when someone that isn't even close to reaching the skill ceiling in any thing talk about skill gap

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It's hilarious when someone that isn't even close to reaching the skill ceiling in any of the games talk about skill gap.  

Yes, because even if I was terrible, that totally means I can't talk about why certain mechanics and the like are garbage and stop a game from being skillful. The fuck outta here with this Waypoint logic, lmao.

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It's hilarious when someone that isn't even close to reaching the skill ceiling in any of the games talk about skill gap.

What a stupid comment. The existence of a skill gap is the draw of competition - regardless of ones individual skill level.

 

Your comment is like saying if you aren’t in the NBA, then you shouldn’t complain if your Rec league stops requiring players to dribble.

 

When you reduce skill gap, you leave less room for personal improvement, and thus lose personal improvement as a motivation to play.

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Just read a comment on reddit saying that H5's broken sandbox with the free upgrades and 4+ weapon tiers is a good thing, because it "makes it play like an arena shooter." Any thoughts on this? It's true in a sense, but Halo has never been a pure arena shooter and as demonstrated by H5 this type of sandbox does not lead to improved gameplay.

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Just read a comment on reddit saying that H5's broken sandbox with the free upgrades and 4+ weapon tiers is a good thing, because it "makes it play like an arena shooter." Any thoughts on this? 

 

tenor.gif

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Just read a comment on reddit saying that H5's broken sandbox with the free upgrades and 4+ weapon tiers is a good thing, because it "makes it play like an arena shooter." Any thoughts on this? It's true in a sense, but Halo has never been a pure arena shooter and as demonstrated by H5 this type of sandbox does not lead to improved gameplay.

 

Dumbass comment for a number of reasons. Arena shooters don't have a metric fuckton of redundant weapons that serve no purpose, and are typically focused on 1v1 and involve drawn-out jousting exchanges. Halo doesn't do that. 

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