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@@Hard Way and @@Basu can't multiquote on mobile but yes I think a falling melee could be a OHK with some prereqs: subtle tell so you know when you have hit that point. No melee lunge. If it's going to be a OHK, it needs to be hard.

 

I think it's the new far cry where there is a loud "woosh" when you are falling and when it gets past a certain pitch and volume, you know youre dead when you land. It could be something like that but more subtle cuz that sound in far cry is loud AF.

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Then you realized your bullets weren't landing in a predictable manner and it felt like you were moving through molasses and it was a nightmare.

 

Then you realized you weren't having a nightmare, you were still playing Halo 3.

 

Playing ElDewrito which has zero spread on the BR changes the entire game in a way I wasn't expecting. I hate the random spread but without it the BR became a laserbeam that could cross map fools.

 

I'm not saying it's better or worse for it, just totally changed the way the game is played.

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That's the magic of a compromise. You get dick, and fans of the experience being compromised (Reach/H4) also get dick.

 

Not the point.. In this scenario there is simply no other choice. They've made it to where they are only hearing the voices they want to hear, and I promise the voice telling them to swing Halo wildly in the other direction is not the one they always consider, judging by Halo 4 and 5. All I'm saying.

 

How (and if) that's changed with Halo Infinite, I don't know, but I fear a lot of that potential leverage for Halo Infinite's gameplay being different was lost with Halo 5, because of just how many times we were ignored there. All those poorly conceived sandbox updates that addressed nothing, and I also don't think any of those suggestions for tweaks were cooked up here. 

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@@Cavik when you split up every reply into 5+ quotes, it becomes tiring to continue replying to you. Especially when a lot of your responses consist of exaggerating some point in a ridiculous way while missing the point expertly. If you still can't see the crux of the argument, that thrust is fundamentally unbalanced in the context of Halo, then there's really no need to nitpick with people's sentences to continue the facade of productive discourse. There's only so much value in this theoretical talk once the fundamental ideas are laid down.

Splitting quotes and addressing things as I go seemed to help in getting points across until recently. I used to write whole replies but then things I said started getting lost in the text and overlooked by readers so I wound up having to repeat myself a lot. Having said that, you could've just asked earlier. 

 

It makes sense that you'd accuse me of exaggerating when you seem to have a tendency to oversimplify. As far as "missing the point expertly," the feeling's mutual seeing as you've made a few claims (that I'm resisting the urge to quote), and while you've offered alterations to the wall-kick idea a number of times now during this discussion, leading me to believe I must be making some decent arguments against its initial more simple form, you've completely ignored certain observations I've made that challenges your logic behind what makes thrust such a naughty mechanic in the first place. You seem to be interested in creating rules for what kinds of changes can and can't be implemented into the game, but you're not willing to discuss the validity of those rules and trying to flesh them out. As I said, I like the latest versions of the wall-kick idea. I just don't see any harm in putting these rules of yours to the test.

 

@@TheIcePrincess

 

Like I told Gobias, typically players jump before they thrust. There's little reason not to. During a gunfight in Halo 5, if a player's feet leave the ground, that typically means he's going to thrust. If he doesn't, he's stuck in a predictable trajectory. So that's a warning. See opponent jump, anticipate him to thrust.

 

You said "example" but I gave you multiple examples. Did you miss the others? Yes, Halo 5 has bloated maps, but the current iteration of thrust carries you quite a distance. There's plenty of walled pathways in Halo 5's maps where you can attempt thrusting across the width of the path and land more than halfway across it. The caves on Coli, the ramps leading up to snipe spawn, the trenches to bottom mid, the threshold between the elbows and bases, underneath bases between the rocks and the foundation wall. Hell, even the windows are thin enough for it. There's plenty of areas like this on every map. How often do you thrust into walls? I don't do it very often and I'm nowhere near pro-level. Obviously players favor thrusting away from nearby walls. And of course if a player is at a disadvantage or is otherwise panicked, he's going to attempt to thrust out of the engagement and around a corner if one's close enough, but they often aren't.

 

In past Halos, players can be much closer to walls without it interrupting their strafe sequence. In Halo 5, if a player isn't in the absolute middle of certain areas/paths, there's going to be a wall nearby that will block his thrust from being as efficient as it can be. That's what makes the direction of a thrust so predictable.

 

I agree that thrust being so jarring is a big issue. Think I've said that several times now.

 

Your argument that thrust does "nothing inherently offensive" isn't true. You can use it to thrust at an opponent in close quarters when you have a close-range power weapon or if you're trying to get a melee in. In certain situations where you have a player hiding behind an obstacle (the rocks under the bases in Coli and its caves; some pillars on Eden; underneath the bases on Truth and around car-side bubble, etc.), you can peek one way around the obstacle to make the enemy move and then potentially thrust in the opposite direction in order to put shots into him. I could go on but my gut says it would be more wasted effort.

 

How is the bubble shield from H3 offensive by nature? Same question for the gravity lift, deployable cover and regen.

 

So if you could thrust multiple times sans cooldown but weren't allowed to spam it endlessly lest your thrusters overheat, and thrust was less rapid and perhaps carried you a shorter distance... We'd be good? The point I was trying to make with that supposed "improper argument" was there's quite a few things in Halo already restraining you from spamming certain actions to keep them from becoming overpowered. Why can't a movement mechanic have something restraining you from spamming it as well? Why is there a rule against that?

 

This will be my last post regarding these subjects. Sorry for all the walls of text.

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Playing ElDewrito which has zero spread on the BR changes the entire game in a way I wasn't expecting. I hate the random spread but without it the BR became a laserbeam that could cross map fools.

 

I'm not saying it's better or worse for it, just totally changed the way the game is played.

It's hitscan too though right?

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@@TheIcePrincess

 

Like I told Gobias, typically players jump before they thrust. There's little reason not to. During a gunfight in Halo 5, if a player's feet leave the ground, that typically means he's going to thrust. If he doesn't, he's stuck in a predictable trajectory. So that's a warning. See opponent jump, anticipate him to thrust.

 

You said "example" but I gave you multiple examples. Did you miss the others? Yes, Halo 5 has bloated maps, but the current iteration of thrust carries you quite a distance. There's plenty of walled pathways in Halo 5's maps where you can attempt thrusting across the width of the path and land more than halfway across it. The caves on Coli, the ramps leading up to snipe spawn, the trenches to bottom mid, the threshold between the elbows and bases, underneath bases between the rocks and the foundation wall. Hell, even the windows are thin enough for it. There's plenty of areas like this on every map. How often do you thrust into walls? I don't do it very often and I'm nowhere near pro-level. Obviously players favor thrusting away from nearby walls. And of course if a player is at a disadvantage or is otherwise panicked, he's going to attempt to thrust out of the engagement and around a corner if one's close enough, but they often aren't.

 

In past Halos, players can be much closer to walls without it interrupting their strafe sequence. In Halo 5, if a player isn't in the absolute middle of certain areas/paths, there's going to be a wall nearby that will block his thrust from being as efficient as it can be. That's what makes the direction of a thrust so predictable.

 

I agree that thrust being so jarring is a big issue. Think I've said that several times now.

 

Your argument that thrust does "nothing inherently offensive" isn't true. You can use it to thrust at an opponent in close quarters when you have a close-range power weapon or if you're trying to get a melee in. In certain situations where you have a player hiding behind an obstacle (the rocks under the bases in Coli and its caves; some pillars on Eden; underneath the bases on Truth and around car-side bubble, etc.), you can peek one way around the obstacle to make the enemy move and then potentially thrust in the opposite direction in order to put shots into him. I could go on but my gut says it would be more wasted effort.

 

How is the bubble shield from H3 offensive by nature? Same question for the gravity lift, deployable cover and regen.

 

So if you could thrust multiple times sans cooldown but weren't allowed to spam it endlessly lest your thrusters overheat, and thrust was less rapid and perhaps carried you a shorter distance... We'd be good? The point I was trying to make with that supposed "improper argument" was there's quite a few things in Halo already restraining you from spamming certain actions to keep them from becoming overpowered. Why can't a movement mechanic have something restraining you from spamming it as well? Why is there a rule against that?

 

This will be my last post regarding these subjects. Sorry for all the walls of text.

The idea that thrust isn't inherently offensive isn't an opinion, it's actually a fact. When the mechanic boils down to a omnidirectional movement that removes your ability to fight, that isn't offensive, it's at best, neutral, and can be used offensively. Things can be used offensively without being inherently offensive. I can use a dildo to kill someone. It doesn't mean the damn thing was made to kill and is inherently offensive. Your examples are once again, biased and hilariously specific too. "You can use it to thrust at an opponent in close quarters"... Ooooooooooooooooooookay, and what if they thrust backwards or behind cover? As I said, you're going with some specific example in a game where a fight in close quarters could range from never using thrust, to using it, to using only guns, to never using a gun and depending on melee with no real large movement use. Stop the specific examples when a game doesn't revolve around them, entirely. Boil down the mechanic. As said in the intro, thrust is an omnidirectional movement that removes your ability to fight. It's at best, inherently neutral. 

 

And you're still caught up in its predictability. Not its jarring nature. If you get how it's jarring as you say you do, then you should understand how a sudden five foot movement to the right or left in a gunfight is a big problem. I shouldn't need to explain how. Especially in a game where aiming is still, to this day, fucking broken. In the end, I don't get the weird thrust nerf involving a shorter distance traveled and a shorter cooldown. Why not just remove the middleman and have a simple base movement speed. EZ. You don't need thrust. Let's stop trying to accommodate it. It doesn't fit. And ways you could make it fit would make it redundant to other, better options.

 

To "How is the bubble shield from H3 offensive by nature? Same question for the gravity lift, deployable cover and regen." I didn't ever say they were. I said that offensive equipment by nature (I even specified that) isn't operating on a cooldown, but on your act of performing the toss of a power drain, mine, etc. That entire rant hinged on how your basic movement isn't operating on a cooldown. And with equipment like the mine, your action is inherently offensive, so removing your ability to shoot isn't a terrible thing compared to thrust when you're dealing damage in other ways. Defensive equipment is still stupid, but offensive equipment still fit the example, even if power drain is soul draining in game.

 

I also don't get "Why can't a movement mechanic have something restraining you from spamming it as well? Why is there a rule against that?"

 

I didn't ever argue this, or bring this up, but even without the main paragraph's context, do you not see the icon flashing on your HUD when you thrust? This shit's a thing.

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What about the 2nd person?

It would be good for enemies to see it as well, yes.

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Playing ElDewrito which has zero spread on the BR changes the entire game in a way I wasn't expecting. I hate the random spread but without it the BR became a laserbeam that could cross map fools.

 

I'm not saying it's better or worse for it, just totally changed the way the game is played.

 

I think it's a real-life illustration of the band-aid solutions Bungie and 343 have been throwing at the game for a long time. Cross mapping isn't too easy because your gun can shoot straight, it's too easy because of the overly generous aim assists and slow strafe. Rather than fix those core issues, which would make the game better in every aspect, they chose to add random spread or some other asinine "solution." 

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I think it's a real-life illustration of the band-aid solutions Bungie and 343 have been throwing at the game for a long time. Cross mapping isn't too easy because your gun can shoot straight, it's too easy because of the overly generous aim assists and slow strafe. Rather than fix those core issues, which would make the game better in every aspect, they chose to add random spread or some other asinine "solution."

spread was added because they wanted the sniper to be the better long range weapon but still allow the br to contest it. That's why the first shot is dead on and the others may not be. It descopes the sniper without doing to much damage. It wasn't a bandaid, it did what they wanted to do. Wasn't a great idea regardless, but still.

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spread was added because they wanted the sniper to be the better long range weapon but still allow the br to contest it. That's why the first shot is dead on and the others may not be. It descopes the sniper without doing to much damage. It wasn't a bandaid, it did what they wanted to do. Wasn't a great idea regardless, but still.

Even a no spread BR would be inferior to to the Sniper at long range.You know, one hit kill potential, longer RRR scoped in and all that jazz. Bungie logic at it's finest.
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Late to the whole thrust thing. I know it would never happen but rather than trust I would actually like to try increasing the base movement speed, for visualisation something like 130% speed in H3/HR, then messing around with a button that massively reduces player acceleration / deceleration times but caps it out when being held before hitting the full base movement speed. Basically something that has the potential to accentuate the buttons you press with regards to directional movement; general better strafing differentiation, super tight SK style mini strafes, quicker square strafing to moving around cover, altered direction when 3rd shot panic jumping etc.

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d7d661bb-ecdd-4271-9fa9-e28a0fc88e60.PNG

 

Anyone else think is among the most disgusting shit in Halo history? They intentionally made the SR ranks so grindy and stupid that they are now making people buy boosts with real money to skip ahead. And for what? Last time I checked there is absolutely no meaningful reward to getting SR 154, hell the ranks don't even look good it's literally a fucking number next to the name lmao. Anyone who spends money on this should just get slapped.

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d7d661bb-ecdd-4271-9fa9-e28a0fc88e60.PNG

 

Anyone else think is among the most disgusting shit in Halo history? They intentionally made the SR ranks so grindy and stupid that they are now making people buy boosts with real money to skip ahead. And for what? Last time I checked there is absolutely no meaningful reward to getting SR 154, hell the ranks don't even look good it's literally a fucking number next to the name lmao. Anyone who spends money on this should just get slapped.

I thought in the blog post you can only buy them with excess points, not money?

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Nope 5$ and they're yours lmao. And the "excess points" is a joke since it costs 150k RP for 20 boosts, which is insanely expensive.

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Nope 5$ and they're yours lmao. And the "excess points" is a joke since it costs 150k RP for 20 boosts, which is insanely expensive.

 

Yeah thats BS.  It should only be excess points.  That would make sense to me. There must still be some whales out there though....

 

Even at 150k i can get 80 boosts...

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The boosts are all legendary though. I don’t think you could get 20 legendarys with 150k. If XP is the only thing you have left to play for, its a logical thing to do with your RP.

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If you're lucky, you'd get maybe 3 or 4. It can also help people going for armor since they give out more RP, but I'm not really surprised about that since they have a money option for just about everything.

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d7d661bb-ecdd-4271-9fa9-e28a0fc88e60.PNG

 

Anyone else think is among the most disgusting shit in Halo history? They intentionally made the SR ranks so grindy and stupid that they are now making people buy boosts with real money to skip ahead. And for what? Last time I checked there is absolutely no meaningful reward to getting SR 154, hell the ranks don't even look good it's literally a fucking number next to the name lmao. Anyone who spends money on this should just get slapped.

 

"but muh free dlc"

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d7d661bb-ecdd-4271-9fa9-e28a0fc88e60.PNG

 

Anyone else think is among the most disgusting shit in Halo history? They intentionally made the SR ranks so grindy and stupid that they are now making people buy boosts with real money to skip ahead. And for what? Last time I checked there is absolutely no meaningful reward to getting SR 154, hell the ranks don't even look good it's literally a fucking number next to the name lmao. Anyone who spends money on this should just get slapped.

No. Not really. Given they're not exclusively money based and even if they were, it's for a dumb, meaningless SR rank. Doesn't stop me from grinding it, but, yunno, even if it was money exclusive, it's literally the most harmless shit. It doesn't let you skip ahead, it's just a bunch of basic "double XP" cards. And the max rank is 152, not 154. Anyone who spends money on it should just be passed off as using their money how they wish, and I hope it's worth it to 'em, lol.

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No. Not really. Given they're not exclusively money based and even if they were, it's for a dumb, meaningless SR rank. Doesn't stop me from grinding it, but, yunno, even if it was money exclusive, it's literally the most harmless shit. It doesn't let you skip ahead, it's just a bunch of basic "double XP" cards. And the max rank is 152, not 154. Anyone who spends money on it should just be passed off as using their money how they wish, and I hope it's worth it to 'em, lol.

 

It's not downright awful and predatory like the WZ mythic REQ packs that give 10 Nornfangs, SPNKr Primes or Prophet's Banes or the spartan recruit pack, which are all literal P2W by definition. But it still irks me as unethical to intentionally design a progression system to be insanely grindy just to sell XP boosts later down the road. Yes, I know the Dorito's and Mt. Dew double XP codes existed in H4 and CoD, but offering this shit in-game takes in another step further. I guess deep down just miss the H3 XP grind that actually took some skill and dedication to complete (can we please get this for the MCC relaunch or in Halo Infinite?).

 

It's whatever, I guess the FPS genre has been so commercialized and riddled with DLC and MTs that this is a drop in the ocean nowadays. At least you know what you get in those packs unlike all the RNG crap in every other AAA FPS besides TF2.

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It's not downright awful and predatory like the WZ mythic REQ packs that give 10 Nornfangs, SPNKr Primes or Prophet's Banes or the spartan recruit pack, which are all literal P2W by definition. But it still irks me as unethical to intentionally design a progression system to be insanely grindy just to sell XP boosts later down the road. Yes, I know the Dorito's and Mt. Dew double XP codes existed in H4 and CoD, but offering this shit in-game takes in another step further. I guess deep down just miss the H3 XP grind that actually took some skill and dedication to complete (can we please get this for the MCC relaunch or in Halo Infinite?).

 

It's whatever, I guess the FPS genre has been so commercialized and riddled with DLC and MTs that this is a drop in the ocean nowadays. At least you know what you get in those packs unlike all the RNG crap in every other AAA FPS besides TF2.

It's not really unethical. It's just a boost for XP per match. Boosts you can obtain in game, more numerously and arguably at a better deal per silver pack than one of these things. For a progression system that still means nothing at the most. It's literally harmless, lol. Although, I find the idea that Halo 3's XP grind is skill-based when the game itself is pretty casual and not exactly the most skill intensive to be pretty funny. A bit of a jab, of course, but humorous.

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It's not really unethical. It's just a boost for XP per match. Boosts you can obtain in game, more numerously and arguably at a better deal per silver pack than one of these things. For a progression system that still means nothing at the most. It's literally harmless, lol. Although, I find the idea that Halo 3's XP grind is skill-based when the game itself is pretty casual and not exactly the most skill intensive to be pretty funny. A bit of a jab, of course, but humorous.

I guess agree to disagree on the P2Rank stuff. You're right that it ultimately means nothing so I'm gonna leave it at that.

 

 

2nd paragraph strikes me as odd. Are you aware that in H3 you actually had to win to get XP? (I'm not talking MCCs nonexistent progression system here). There was none of this participation trophy garbage we've been fed since Reach. Plus Matchmaking wasn't a complete shitfest back then so you couldn't just get a party together and farm WZ and BTB like nowadays. Competition could be fierce depending on your party's skill. Because you had to win to get XP, people actually TRIED to win even in unranked objective gametypes, a totally foreign concept in shooters nowadays.

 

And the notion that H3 is super casual and not skill intensive is laughable. Compared to what? It had the 2nd best ranking system in the series, the best matchmaking and a higher skill gap than anything that had come out since, bar ZBNS Reach and maybe niche stuff like GoldPro and Evolved settings.

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I guess agree to disagree on the P2Rank stuff. You're right that it ultimately means nothing so I'm gonna leave it at that.

2nd paragraph strikes me as odd. Are you aware that in H3 you actually had to win to get XP? (I'm not talking MCCs nonexistent progression system here). There was none of this participation trophy garbage we've been fed since Reach. Plus Matchmaking wasn't a complete shitfest back then so you couldn't just get a party together and farm WZ and BTB like nowadays. Competition could be fierce depending on your party's skill. Because you had to win to get XP, people actually TRIED to win even in unranked objective gametypes, a totally foreign concept in shooters nowadays.

And the notion that H3 is super casual and not skill intensive is laughable. Compared to what? It had the 2nd best ranking system in the series, the best matchmaking and a higher skill gap than anything that had come out since, bar ZBNS Reach and maybe niche stuff like GoldPro and Evolved settings.

not exactly a contest when everything that came after was a mess in some way. Also halo 3 being casual isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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