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@@Cavik

You seem to be missing the point of my suggested compromises. They’re meant to complement the basic movement, not overtake it. The wall kick would offer you more combat strafing options while having zero negative impact on the game.

The wall-kick would be even more predictable than current thrust (which is already even more predictable than the beginning movements of a typical strafe pattern), meaning it would have practically zero impact on the game because people would very rarely use it--at least once they realize it doesn't help them in the vast majority of situations (if any). How does it complement the game's movement and "offer you more combat strafing options" if most people look at it and say, "That's not worth using,"?

 

When you jump near a wall, you can kick off of it at any point, or choose not to. It’s situational enough so that it doesn’t happen all the time—just like crouching or jumping in a gunfight in the original Halo games. Is it “too situational”? That’s impossible to quantify, really.

I disagree. When you jump off the ground, you can jump forward, backward, or to either side. Your wall-kick would be even more predictable than a regular jump because it limits the amount of directions the player can move through the air in down to one single option. In past Halos, jumping is already something people don't do much of during gunfights, why would the wall-kick alone inspire them to do it more often?

 

I personally think it would be a useful mechanic as is, but making the speed increase be twice that of base movement would probably still not break map pathing nearly as much as thrust, and using it for escape or faster traversal would still not be viable since the fastest routes run parallel to walls, not perpendicular.

Now we're talking. It would be even more predictable than thrust is currently because players would have to be near the wall in order to jump at it and kick off it so other players would see it coming, but at least it would be faster than typical strafe so there's incentive to use it. I'd definitely be willing to try that in place of thrust.

 

However, what I said in my previous post was that it could give players a vertical boost in speed. I'm almost positive it would be possible to allow players to gain a vertical boost in speed higher than BMS upon kicking off while simultaneously keeping their horizontal speed restricted to BMS, maybe even lower, so it couldn't be used to more quickly traverse maps.

 

Thrust will always be inherently out of place in Halo. Anything that has a cooldown timer will feel that way. Anything that removes your ability to deal damage will feel that way.

Throwing nades, switching weapons, reloading, the overheating of plasma weapons, using equipment (in certain Halo games). Does all of that feel out of place to you?

 

Halo is based on balancing factors that feel organic and situational. It’s like if 343 realized no-scopes with the Halo 4 beam rifle were too easy and, instead of removing the bullet magnetism, decided to “balance” it by adding a charge meter that only fills up when you scope in. Not only would this not solve the problem (the feeling of noscope hits being undeserved), it would restrict players and make the game clunkier, less fluid. What possible balance could there be to thrust that doesn’t feel as unnatural as the mechanic itself? Each band-aid solution has its own negative.

If I'm understanding that comparison correctly, the translation is: It's like 343 realized adding sprint and expanding maps increased the average engagement range (decreasing the aiming skill gap in turn) and, instead of eliminating the source of the problem, they introduced thrust in an attempt to further nerf sprint's negative impacts.

 

I agree (except about it feeling clunky and unnatural). That doesn't mean thrust--or a variation of it--isn't worth having in the game without sprint, though. And you seem to agree, otherwise why continue trying to find a compromise?

 

Halo is about seamless combination of movement and combat. Thrust is about increasing the separation between movement and combat.

But a wall-kick followed by a spurt of speed faster than BMS isn't? Does that mean you'd allow players to shoot while performing the wall-kick? If so, I'd still be down to give it a try, but I would anticipate the arise of other issues.

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Throwing nades, switching weapons, reloading, the overheating of plasma weapons, using equipment (in certain Halo games). Does all of that feel out of place to you?

Had to comment because this was just too silly. Throwing nades is to deal damage, overheating is because you're putting out too much damage, and equipment can outright kill other players. These are all ways to kill people, lmao. They may stop you from shooting, but they don't stop you from damage dealing, because you don't deal damage JUST by shooting. Switching weapons is a few frames of an animation that isn't based on a cooldown, and reloading is done (presumably) to avoid infinite spamming of a weapon, and the only one that can be remotely argued against, and not because you're not dealing damage while you do it.

 

The wall-kick would be even more predictable than current thrust

>Implying thrust is anywhere near predictable when one of the biggest complaints about it is that it's a sudden, jarring, unpredictable movement. Lmao.

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Had to comment because this was just too silly. Throwing nades is to deal damage,

Doesn't change the fact that in the act of throwing a grenade you're blocked from doing direct damage to your opponent until the animation is finished. Have you never been shot in the process of throwing a grenade? Have you never seen that happen to someone else? Taking the time to throw a grenade is a gamble. Right now in H5, thrusting is admittedly not much of a gamble, but if the act of thrusting was slowed so players could more easily shoot a thrusting opponent, it would be.

 

overheating is because you're putting out too much damage,

So there's a limit to how much damage we're allowed to put out now? Since when? And why is there so many weapons that don't also comply with this damage output limitation?

 

and equipment can outright kill other players.

Good points, good points. Bubble shield, grav lift, deployable cover, radar jammer--easy kills all day long.

 

These are all ways to kill people, lmao.

Beyond%20Thinking.png

 

They may stop you from shooting, but they don't stop you from damage dealing, because you don't deal damage JUST by shooting. Switching weapons is a few frames of an animation

For how many frames are you restricted from shooting upon thrusting? Just asking in the off chance that you or someone else who reads over this might already know. If not, I'll look into finding out, but it feels quite brief to me.

 

that isn't based on a cooldown, and reloading is done (presumably) to avoid infinite spamming of a weapon, and the only one that can be remotely argued against, and not because you're not dealing damage while you do it.

Here's another one (you'll love this): For every semi-automatic or burst-fire gun in the game, there's a cooldown between every single trigger-pull. If there wasn't, people would be able to fire every one of those guns as fast as an automatic. 

 

>Implying thrust is anywhere near predictable when one of the biggest complaints about it is that it's a sudden, jarring, unpredictable movement. Lmao.

It's more predictable than the initial moves of a classic strafe sequence, yeah. Here, I wrote up a kind of guideline a ways back during a similar discussion:

 

1. When you catch an opponent off guard and get a shot or two in him, you can guess that he'll probably thrust right off the bat because, along with it just being a common panicked reflex, he'll want to throw off your aim as much as possible so he can then try and level the playing field by getting shots into you while you're disoriented.

 

2. If you and your opponent are in an even 1v1, lowering each other's shields at the same rate, you can guess he won't thrust until you're both one shot so as to make it harder for you to land the final headshot.

 

3. Like I said, thrusting is a common panicked reflex, so any time you can sense your opponent might be starting to panic (such as when he starts missing shots while you start hitting yours) you can guess he's going to thrust.

 

As for predicting what direction the player will thrust in, obviously if the player is losing the gunfight, he's very likely to attempt thrusting toward the nearest cover or back toward safety. In an even 1v1, as I told Gobias, if there's a wall near this person, you can guess he's going to thrust away from that wall because thrusting into it would potentially put less space between him and his opponent's crosshair (which is inefficient). 

 

Obviously this kind of thing can't be accurately predicted 100% of the time but I'm positive from my time playing and watching H5 that it's easier to predict when and in what direction someone's going to thrust than it is to predict which direction someone is going to move to start their strafe sequence.

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@@Cavik a cooldown is when you are restricted from using an ability because you are waiting for an arbitrarily set timer to count down. Reloading/plasma overheating, throwing nades, melees and weapons switching are just actions that take some time to finish. A cooldown would be only allowing you to switch weapons every 5 seconds.

 

OT, I think he's right about the wall kick needing to be a tad faster than BMS. I imagine it boosts you up a tad vertically and horizontally pushes you away from the wall at the same angle as you entered (imagine a tennis ball hitting the wall).

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@@Cavik a cooldown is when you are restricted from using an ability because you are waiting for an arbitrarily set timer to count down. Reloading/plasma overheating, throwing nades, melees and weapons switching are just actions that take some time to finish. A cooldown would be only allowing you to switch weapons every 5 seconds.

 

OT, I think he's right about the wall kick needing to be a tad faster than BMS. I imagine it boosts you up a tad vertically and horizontally pushes you away from the wall at the same angle as you entered (imagine a tennis ball hitting the wall).

I guess I didn't describe it exactly how I imagine it. Your vertical momentum would be preserved at all times. The wall kick would just add momentum in the horizontal direction. This still prevents you from getting to any higher areas than a normal jump would allow, so map designers don't have to worry about things breaking.

 

@@Cavik when you split up every reply into 5+ quotes, it becomes tiring to continue replying to you. Especially when a lot of your responses consist of exaggerating some point in a ridiculous way while missing the point expertly. If you still can't see the crux of the argument, that thrust is fundamentally unbalanced in the context of Halo, then there's really no need to nitpick with people's sentences to continue the facade of productive discourse. There's only so much value in this theoretical talk once the fundamental ideas are laid down.

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Doesn't change the fact that in the act of throwing a grenade you're blocked from doing direct damage to your opponent until the animation is finished. Have you never been shot in the process of throwing a grenade? Have you never seen that happen to someone else? Taking the time to throw a grenade is a gamble. Right now in H5, thrusting is admittedly not much of a gamble, but if the act of thrusting was slowed so players could more easily shoot a thrusting opponent, it would be.

 

So there's a limit to how much damage we're allowed to put out now? Since when? And why is there so many weapons that don't also comply with this damage output limitation?

 

Good points, good points. Bubble shield, grav lift, deployable cover, radar jammer--easy kills all day long.

 

Beyond%20Thinking.png

 

For how many frames are you restricted from shooting upon thrusting? Just asking in the off chance that you or someone else who reads over this might already know. If not, I'll look into finding out, but it feels quite brief to me.

 

Here's another one (you'll love this): For every semi-automatic or burst-fire gun in the game, there's a cooldown between every single trigger-pull. If there wasn't, people would be able to fire every one of those guns as fast as an automatic. 

 

It's more predictable than the initial moves of a classic strafe sequence, yeah. Here, I wrote up a kind of guideline a ways back during a similar discussion:

 

 

As for predicting what direction the player will thrust in, obviously if the player is losing the gunfight, he's very likely to attempt thrusting toward the nearest cover or back toward safety. In an even 1v1, as I told Gobias, if there's a wall near this person, you can guess he's going to thrust away from that wall because thrusting into it would potentially put less space between him and his opponent's crosshair (which is inefficient). 

 

Obviously this kind of thing can't be accurately predicted 100% of the time but I'm positive from my time playing and watching H5 that it's easier to predict when and in what direction someone's going to thrust than it is to predict which direction someone is going to move to start their strafe sequence.

As Gobias said, your way of responding is hilariously tiresome. It's not hard to just write in sequential order, maybe highlight some stuff. I remember when I used to rookie post like this. I also used an overabundance of commas. I stopped it, though.

 

BUT, how in any way is thrust somehow more predictable than strafing when both do the same thing on different extremes? Your example is not only hilariously specific, but only fits your statement and what you think, it's terribly biased. It doesn't account for the fact that maps in Halo 5, along with engagement areas tend to be wide open spaces and doesn't account for every engagement in every area on every map. I'm not arguing one is more predictable than the other, just that you can't say one is when your examples for it depend on hilariously specific reasoning and circumstances that don't account for the entirety of the game, and most likely never will. For all intents and purposes both are just as "random", but one is much more jarring than the other when it carries you a further distance in a shorter amount of time. Hence jarring, hence the issue. Inherently, they're both as unpredictable, but the issue lays in how jarring it is, and if it removes your ability to fight, over predictability in most cases.

 

And to your earlier points, your argument hinged on how every listed thing removed your ability to deal damage, like thrust did. An improper argument when thrust does nothing inherently offensive and throwing a nade does, regardless of how long it takes. You have an animation for nade throwing, but you're still doing it to do damage. You're not losing your ability there, you're PERFORMING it. Same for equipment that is offensive by nature. Same for shooting your weapon and its relative rate of fire, which, contrary to your line of thought, isn't a cooldown period like say, the Plasma Rifle overheating when you fire it for too long. Your gun isn't "cooling down" in a gameplay fashion, it's literally shooting at the time you're using it and unable to fire again. When you thrust and lose your ability to shoot, that is solely contingent on the fact you thrusted. Thrust is removing that from you and giving it back upon completion, stopping you from doing anything, whereas grenades being thrown to deal damage is again, you performing an offensive action over a period of time, as is using offensive equipment, and shooting your gun. Big difference, and your method of logic is terribly flawed.  :thinking:

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I guess I didn't describe it exactly how I imagine it. Your vertical momentum would be preserved at all times. The wall kick would just add momentum in the horizontal direction. This still prevents you from getting to any higher areas than a normal jump would allow, so map designers don't have to worry about things breaking.

 

That's what I tried to describe you just did it much more efficiently haha. Yes I could definitely see this being awesome and add "advanced mobility" without the compromising effect of AAs and SAs. Besides double jump, this is the only "mobility" stuff I can see actually working in Halo.

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Doesn't change the fact that in the act of throwing a grenade you're blocked from doing direct damage to your opponent until the animation is finished. Have you never been shot in the process of throwing a grenade? Have you never seen that happen to someone else? Taking the time to throw a grenade is a gamble. Right now in H5, thrusting is admittedly not much of a gamble, but if the act of thrusting was slowed so players could more easily shoot a thrusting opponent, it would be.

 

So there's a limit to how much damage we're allowed to put out now? Since when? And why is there so many weapons that don't also comply with this damage output limitation?

 

Good points, good points. Bubble shield, grav lift, deployable cover, radar jammer--easy kills all day long.

 

Beyond%20Thinking.png

 

 

For how many frames are you restricted from shooting upon thrusting? Just asking in the off chance that you or someone else who reads over this might already know. If not, I'll look into finding out, but it feels quite brief to me.

 

Here's another one (you'll love this): For every semi-automatic or burst-fire gun in the game, there's a cooldown between every single trigger-pull. If there wasn't, people would be able to fire every one of those guns as fast as an automatic. 

 

It's more predictable than the initial moves of a classic strafe sequence, yeah. Here, I wrote up a kind of guideline a ways back during a similar discussion:

 

 

As for predicting what direction the player will thrust in, obviously if the player is losing the gunfight, he's very likely to attempt thrusting toward the nearest cover or back toward safety. In an even 1v1, as I told Gobias, if there's a wall near this person, you can guess he's going to thrust away from that wall because thrusting into it would potentially put less space between him and his opponent's crosshair (which is inefficient). 

 

Obviously this kind of thing can't be accurately predicted 100% of the time but I'm positive from my time playing and watching H5 that it's easier to predict when and in what direction someone's going to thrust than it is to predict which direction someone is going to move to start their strafe sequence.

You seem like one of those people who actually likes how adding friends on xbox live works now, where you don't have to send a request that can be rejected, you just add them and if they add you back then great.

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That's what I tried to describe you just did it much more efficiently haha. Yes I could definitely see this being awesome and add "advanced mobility" without the compromising effect of AAs and SAs. Besides double jump, this is the only "mobility" stuff I can see actually working in Halo.

accidental neg.
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accidental neg.

 

I'm never getting that gold bar am I?

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accidental neg.

I got you

I'm never getting that gold bar am I?

Doing my part

 

The wall kick idea doesn't sound terrible.  its fairly niche, and executed as basically mirrored angle momentum preservation wouldn't break maps.  I am still very squeamish about messing with core mechanics but I am also in harm-reduction mode so if this were to be implemented in place of thrust, that would be great by me.

 

I do think the "lets replace this Halo 5 mechanic with a less-bad one" is a good exercise to go through. Whats next?

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I got you

Doing my part

 

The wall kick idea doesn't sound terrible. its fairly niche, and executed as basically mirrored angle momentum preservation wouldn't break maps. I am still very squeamish about messing with core mechanics but I am also in harm-reduction mode so if this were to be implemented in place of thrust, that would be great by me.

 

I do think the "lets replace this Halo 5 mechanic with a less-bad one" is a good exercise to go through. Whats next?

Only certain ledges are clamberable, as chosen by the map maker. And clamber takes a lot longer.

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I had this dream where there was a modern shooter where when you aimed, you didn't slow down or have to stop, you still ran at the same speed. Additionally, my sights didn't take up 30% of screen space.

 

Then I realized I wasn't dreaming and I was playing Halo 3.

 

Then you realized your bullets weren't landing in a predictable manner and it felt like you were moving through molasses and it was a nightmare.

 

Then you realized you weren't having a nightmare, you were still playing Halo 3.

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This idea would replace sprint and/or thrust. If you’ve never played a shooter with strafe running, it’s pretty cool. You run about 40% faster diagonally because your speed is not normalized. This means you can essentially sprint in four directions with a single input and without any animation. But the more interesting part is that you have insane strafing capability. You can outstrafe two people at the same time if one is in front of you and the other is to the side, since you appear to be moving at “normal” speed from both perspectives. It’s super useful in FFA when someone tries to get an easy kill from the side. If you have a really slow RoF weapon or are reloading, you can also strafe 45 degrees to your opponent to buy a little time.

 

Since being able to move that much faster would still stretch the maps and have a lot of the negative effects of sprint (which is about 10% faster than running in H5), you could restrict the speed to be constant in all directions but leave the acceleration untouched. This means you could still have a very effective short strafe as viewed from two perpendicular directions.

 

Alternatively, you could separate this acceleration feature from the WASD system and add it as an acceleration buff that works at all angles on the control stick. When you accelerate in any direction, the game would ask how perpendicular that direction is to your current speed (a cross product, for people who remember math), then apply a proportional buff. This would make circle strafing much snappier, for example.

 

Only certain ledges are clamberable, as chosen by the map maker. And clamber takes a lot longer.

This would be great for helping make maps ability-proof. I was in a Discord server where someone was asking for advice on a map he thought was pretty polished, and one guy said “yeah, found a way to get out of the map where you sprint slide jump thrust ground pound stall thrust cancel stabilize mason jump clamber.” I would not want to be a forger in Halo 5 lol.
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Then you realized your bullets weren't landing in a predictable manner and it felt like you were moving through molasses and it was a nightmare.

 

Then you realized you weren't having a nightmare, you were still playing Halo 3.

 

How ain't you bored of saying the same shit for like a whole decade...lol

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How ain't you bored of saying the same shit for like a whole decade...lol

 

It's basically the only thing that keeps me entertained with Halo at this point. I refuse to abandon my post, though the war may be lost. 

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Only certain ledges are clamberable, as chosen by the map maker. And clamber takes a lot longer.

It could easily be indicated by simple texturing like how white ledges in many games indicate something can be climbed (Tomb Raider came to mind immediately). Clamber cannot be executed on ledges above your head.

 

Stabilize - Decoupled from Zoom. Simply press jump again.  crouch spamming doesn't raise you higher.  Potential problem if  thrust were replaced with a wall kick - how does the game know which action you are trying to execute?  As we saw with Melee and Ground Pound, multi-use buttons can cause issues with delay while the game figures out what you want.  Would you be allowed to wall kick, then stabilize?

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It could easily be indicated by simple texturing like how white ledges in many games indicate something can be climbed (Tomb Raider came to mind immediately). Clamber cannot be executed on ledges above your head.

 

Stabilize - Decoupled from Zoom. Simply press jump again. crouch spamming doesn't raise you higher. Potential problem if thrust were replaced with a wall kick - how does the game know which action you are trying to execute? As we saw with Melee and Ground Pound, multi-use buttons can cause issues with delay while the game figures out what you want. Would you be allowed to wall kick, then stabilize?

You could tie the wall kick to releasing the jump button near a wall, so you would just hold it after jumping. At that point, I would just choose one of the mechanics and ditch the other, though.
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You could tie the wall kick to releasing the jump button near a wall, so you would just hold it after jumping. At that point, I would just choose one of the mechanics and ditch the other, though.

hrmm yeah, that sounds clunky though.  I would rather have it be a second tap than a release.  And if i had to pick just one it would be the wall kick over stabilize.

 

Next one: Ground pound and spartan charge.  This is easy.  Replace with momentum based melees. done.

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SC and GP as said replace with momentum melees, I imagine falling (like multiple stories) melees being OHKs but really really hard to pull off.

 

Replace thrust with wall kick and a better strafe. "Replace" sprint with a higher fov, bms and weapon sway.

Stabilize could become a property of certain weapons when zooming in maybe? Idk the Hydra or DMR could be made more unique if solely they had stabilize (doesn't mean either of them should exist though)

Slide idk. Leave in when crouching at full bms, but honestly without all the glitches like thrustslide attached to it it's absolutely useless so might as well get canned.

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hrmm yeah, that sounds clunky though.  I would rather have it be a second tap than a release.  And if i had to pick just one it would be the wall kick over stabilize.

 

Next one: Ground pound and spartan charge.  This is easy.  Replace with momentum based melees. done.

 

Heres a legit question: If momentum melees replaced ground pound, would you include a screen effect when you fall far enough, indicating to the player that a frontal melee would one hit kill?  Should a falling melee be able to one hit kill to the front past a certain point? I think I'd be down to try it, so long as there was a visual cue from both 1st and 3rd person.

 

Edit: I really need to start hitting multiquote and just keep reading. Basu gave this exact idea in the very next post...

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Heres a legit question: If momentum melees replaced ground pound, would you include a screen effect when you fall far enough, indicating to the player that a frontal melee would one hit kill?  Should a falling melee be able to one hit kill to the front past a certain point? I think I'd be down to try it, so long as there was a visual cue from both 1st and 3rd person.

 

Edit: I really need to start hitting multiquote and just keep reading. Basu gave this exact idea in the very next post...

What about the 2nd person?

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