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Halo Infinite Discussion

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LOL aye.  It seems to me if you don't like OS and Camo you don't like Halo, frankly.  Haste would be a great powerup because you actually have to use it.  Your damage boost come from the fact that you can shoot faster, move faster, reload faster and get your shields back faster.  You still have to hit your shots, which could be harder because the cadence will be off from what you are used to. You'll still die just as fast if someone gets the jump on you. You still have to actually do something intelligently to make the most of it. Sounds good to me...

 

Combine that with the ability for powerups to drop on death (save for OS unless it's an assassination) and we're golden.

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Another perspective might be that both Speed Boost and Damage Boost have been kind of shitty and lazy powerups that simply boost one singular player trait to 120%

 

That one.

 

LOL aye.  It seems to me if you don't like OS and Camo you don't like Halo, frankly.  Haste would be a great powerup because you actually have to use it.  Your damage boost come from the fact that you can shoot faster, move faster, reload faster and get your shields back faster.  You still have to hit your shots, which could be harder because the cadence will be off from what you are used to. You'll still die just as fast if someone gets the jump on you. You still have to actually do something intelligently to make the most of it. Sounds good to me...

 

It doesn't take a lot of foresight to envision how a juggernaut powerup (which is exactly what Haste is) would fuck with the meta and piss everybody off.

 

Regarding the damage boost aspect, if the sandbox is weak enough to where damage boost makes a noticeable difference without turning everything into an instant kill, then the devs already failed at their jobs.

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Combine that with the ability for powerups to drop on death (save for OS unless it's an assassination) and we're golden.

 

Golden showered, maybe.

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That one.

 

 

It doesn't take a lot of foresight to envision how a juggernaut powerup (which is exactly what Haste is) would fuck with the meta and piss everybody off.

 

Regarding the damage boost aspect, if the sandbox is weak enough to where damage boost makes a noticeable difference without turning everything into an instant kill, then the devs already failed at their jobs.

 

How is haste a juggernaut powerup....???  Its not like you are doubling all those speeds, you are increasing them by maybe 10 - 20%.....  If it were to become a "Juggernaut" powerup, thats not flawed concept, that's just shitty execution which is a different conversation entirely.  The concept of a Haste powerup is a good one that could fit right into the Halo sandbox if tuned properly.

 

 

 

Combine that with the ability for powerups to drop on death (save for OS unless it's an assassination) and we're golden.

 

Yes definitely! Drop on death with whatever time/resource was remaining seems like a no-brainer improvement to me.

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What if the damage boost powerup lowered your damage resistance too? Picking it up would make you play the “glass cannon” role. That might be a decent nerf if it’s OP otherwise.

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What if the damage boost powerup lowered your damage resistance too? Picking it up would make you play the “glass cannon” role. That might be a decent nerf if it’s OP otherwise.

 

Not sure about that.  I think of powerups as ways to facilitate aggressiveness.  I could see a damage boost power up designed in this manner either becoming pure-bait, since as soon as someone gets it they would be an easier kill, or encourage people that do pick it up to sit back long range and take pot-shots.

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I can't wait for them to reveal H6 gameplay and see the twitch chat go from excitement to disappointment in .0000001 seconds, just like when they revealed the H5 gameplay. That moment is burned in my memory.

 

I remember the reveal of the H5 beta at the end of the MCC conference. During the MCC gameplay I was hyped (and little did we know we all walked in a trap) and I remember my blood boiling watching the CG rendered Halo 5 tease......I never hit the hype breaks faster than I did that day..

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Multi not liking Power-Ups

 

Multi's opinion on Power-Ups became that way because he discovered something more interesting when he made his map Arcanum. The map has a Key that spawns in three locations, and when you pick it up, you can open several doors in the map that create shortcuts and help you fight the enemy. However, you only have ten uses of the Key before it breaks, all of the doors create a loud noise, and you teleport to an open area after the last use. This makes Key usage a skill in itself, as smart players can utilize doors more efficiently, or even outright skip using a door. On the other side, the enemy can deduct how many times you've used the Key, and can set up ambushes.

 

A dynamic element in the form of an object, that gives one player the ability to succeed if he is smart and skilled. An Overshield and Camo don't have as deep of a system built into themselves; they give you three times health or make you invisible, basically a "You Win" scenario in almost any given situation minus burning the Power-Up. But I've seen for myself the different levels of smart plays with the Key in Arcanum, it's an added level of depth that makes the map incredibly interesting to play over and over, which is why it's my favorite map in Halo 5.

 

Imagine a set of maps that have some kind of controllable element that fundamentally changes how a match will go. One player gets that kind of power, all of the others have to figure out what he's going to do, regardless of them being friend or foe. And once that player dies, there's a fight to see who gets the power next. It's awesome to me.

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Multi's opinion on Power-Ups became that way because he discovered something more interesting when he made his map Arcanum. The map has a Key that spawns in three locations, and when you pick it up, you can open several doors in the map that create shortcuts and help you fight the enemy. However, you only have ten uses of the Key before it breaks, all of the doors create a loud noise, and you teleport to an open area after the last use. This makes Key usage a skill in itself, as smart players can utilize doors more efficiently, or even outright skip using a door. On the other side, the enemy can deduct how many times you've used the Key, and can set up ambushes.

 

A dynamic element in the form of an object, that gives one player the ability to succeed if he is smart and skilled. An Overshield and Camo don't have as deep of a system built into themselves; they give you three times health or make you invisible, basically a "You Win" scenario in almost any given situation minus burning the Power-Up. But I've seen for myself the different levels of smart plays with the Key in Arcanum, it's an added level of depth that makes the map incredibly interesting to play over and over, which is why it's my favorite map in Halo 5.

 

Imagine a set of maps that have some kind of controllable element that fundamentally changes how a match will go. One player gets that kind of power, all of the others have to figure out what he's going to do, regardless of them being friend or foe. And once that player dies, there's a fight to see who gets the power next. It's awesome to me.

 

Having an awesome extra tool to play with doesn't automatically make what came before it shit though.  It just doesn't need to be that binary.  Frankly, that key sounds annoying AF for a guy who can game maybe a few hours a week.  I simply don't have the time or will to learn that shit.  Now, i'm not saying something like that is bad.  I still think it sounds cool if utilized correctly, but to suggest that it should be at the expense of other classic halo powerups or it suddenly makes other ideas shit seems like an overreaction.

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An Overshield and Camo don't have as deep of a system built into themselves; they give you three times health or make you invisible, basically a "You Win" scenario in almost any given situation minus burning the Power-Up. 

 

ah i see you're not a man of culture

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Having an awesome extra tool to play with doesn't automatically make what came before it shit though.  It just doesn't need to be that binary.  Frankly, that key sounds annoying AF for a guy who can game maybe a few hours a week.  I simply don't have the time or will to learn that shit.  Now, i'm not saying something like that is bad.  I still think it sounds cool if utilized correctly, but to suggest that it should be at the expense of other classic halo powerups or it suddenly makes other ideas shit seems like an overreaction.

 

Halo's Power-Ups aren't incredibly deep, but they don't need to be for a game like Halo to work. I personally am alright with Power-Ups in Halo, but would prefer if they returned to their original shapes and usage. I can understand Multi's frustration with instant upgrades, but I can also understand that Overshield and Camo are two fundamental items required for a Halo game.

 

I don't want Infinite to have even more new weapons and gimmicks to worry about. I'd rather have every weapon in Halo history be the best it can be, and have classic movement alongside it. Just a big fun sandbox to mess around in, with the fat trimmed for competitive. Surely it can't be that hard to do.

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Halo's Power-Ups aren't incredibly deep, but they don't need to be for a game like Halo to work. I personally am alright with Power-Ups in Halo, but would prefer if they returned to their original shapes and usage. I can understand Multi's frustration with instant upgrades, but I can also understand that Overshield and Camo are two fundamental items required for a Halo game.

 

I don't want Infinite to have even more new weapons and gimmicks to worry about. I'd rather have every weapon in Halo history be the best it can be, and have classic movement alongside it. Just a big fun sandbox to mess around in, with the fat trimmed for competitive. Surely it can't be that hard to do.

Definitely yeah.  Instant pickup, no button press required.  Of course the best way to make that work is to remove sprint... so here is to hoping.

 

The way i see it, if they want to "innovate" with the game.  Adding a bunch of different weapons and powerups and shit like that is the way to go.  This way everything is optional.  If it sucks, just don't use it. This requires 2 prerequisites though: 1) The core items are all done well.  Magnum OR DMR, BR, Sniper, Rockets, OS, Camo, etc must be solid first. 2) Devs must practice restraint.  Just because you made something, doesn't mean that it has to be used.  If it sucks, just don't use it.  This seems to be the hardest thing for people to get around.  When they make a thing, they fall in love with it even if it really kind of sucks and they feel compelled to use it.

 

Ideally for powerups I would prefer the "Custom" power up route where really there is only one powerup, but within that power up there are options to tweak every player trait you could think of.  343 creates some stock OS, Camo, Haste etc whatever whatever that can be picked quickly, but really any trait can be edited.

 

Same for weapons.  Let each weapon have individual, tune-able characteristics.  That would be sick.

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Multi's opinion on Power-Ups became that way because he discovered something more interesting when he made his map Arcanum[...]

 

Oh I absolutely see where he is coming from, but as stated above this does not mean OS and Camo are stupid gimmicks on the level of AAs and equipment and that they have to go. In a proper Halo game (aka not the last three) both OS and Camo are put in proper spaces on the map and can be contested. Even after pickup they can be still countered through smart play and soft counters like the AR for camo and the PR for OS also exist. Saying they are completely fucked and give out free kills left and right is an oversimplification.

 

They are frustrating to fight against in H5 because Camo is excessively good and combined with all the visual noise on the maps and the shitty graphics it becomes very very hard to spot a camo guy until he has assassinated you or got 2-3 shots off.

OS is stupid because thanks to thrustslidejumphoverclamber the guy can be anywhere at any time (most likely right up in your face) and thanks to the excessive bullet magnetism and non-existing strafe you cannot outplay the dude at that point and simply lose in a war of attrition thanks to his 3x shields. These powerups were never a problem in the real first three Halo games.

 

And for the record I'm stoked to see what ideas Multi comes up with for his new project. I hope the key on Arkanum is a taste of things to come, because that is exactly the kind of stuff we need in this stale genre. If the game is even half as good as he saysit is, then it's going to be a blast to play and he has my full support.

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Give me tiered Overshields so we can have more power items on maps of varying strengths.

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As it relates to Camo, I'm mostly fine with it, it just needs to be properly balanced.

A few months ago Camo was buffed to such an extent that basically any time the other team gets it, I usually just end up getting wrecked. But on the other hand, whenever I get it, as long as I don't screw up, I basically get a free killing spree.

H5 at times with its dynamic resolution and overly busy art direction can look a little messy, Camo directly benefits from this. So why they decided to buff Camo eludes me. Because I wager that Camo is more powerful than it has ever been.

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How is haste a juggernaut powerup....???  Its not like you are doubling all those speeds, you are increasing them by maybe 10 - 20%.....  If it were to become a "Juggernaut" powerup, thats not flawed concept, that's just shitty execution which is a different conversation entirely.  The concept of a Haste powerup is a good one that could fit right into the Halo sandbox if tuned properly.

 

Speed boost doesn't fit into the Halo sandbox. Damage boost doesn't fit into the Halo sandbox. Why would the two of them together fit into the Halo sandbox? Neither of these traits can be tuned properly, they're either irrelevant or they break the game, with no in-between. 

 

What if the damage boost powerup lowered your damage resistance too? Picking it up would make you play the “glass cannon” role. That might be a decent nerf if it’s OP otherwise.

 

Powerups shouldn't penalize the player in any way. Defeats the purpose.

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Speed boost doesn't fit into the Halo sandbox. Damage boost doesn't fit into the Halo sandbox. Why would the two of them together fit into the Halo sandbox? Neither of these traits can be tuned properly, they're either irrelevant or they break the game, with no in-between. There's a reason why Bungie, even during their equipment/armor abilities phase where they implemented pretty much whatever the hell, never went there.

Speed boost? Why not... It alone sucks sure, ESPECIALLY in a game with sprint since its so redundant, but it doesn't "break the sandbox".  Everybody in the game having a speed boost button all the time breaks the game, but a power up that lasts for 40 seconds does not.

 

And haste isn't a pure damage boost. You still have to hit your shots. each hit still does the same damage.  What arbitrary line do you draw to decide what power ups "fit in the halo sandbox"? How is conceptually the trait modification of "increase base movement speed for X time or until death" different than the trait modification for "Increase base shield for X amount of time or until death" etc?  

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Speed boost? Why not... It alone sucks sure, ESPECIALLY in a game with sprint since its so redundant, but it doesn't "break the sandbox".  Everybody in the game having a speed boost button all the time breaks the game, but a power up that lasts for 40 seconds does not.

 

And haste isn't a pure damage boost. You still have to hit your shots. each hit still does the same damage.

 

Speed boost, in its default form from H4 and H5, is useless unless you're bumrushing a Warzone base. And even then, you have to stack two or three of them to get enough of a boost to actually make a difference, which is cheap as hell and would obviously break the game wide open in an arena setting.

 

You still have to hit your shots with regular damage boost.

 

What arbitrary line do you draw to decide what power ups "fit in the halo sandbox"? How is conceptually the trait modification of "increase base movement speed for X time or until death" different than the trait modification for "Increase base shield for X amount of time or until death" etc?

 

 

I ask myself "does it work". Damage and speed boost have been around for two main titles now, and no, they don't work. In their default state, they're irrelevant and not worth their spot on the map. If you amplify the effect (by letting people stack multiple copies of the powerup), they suddenly become game-breaking. Buffed speed boost turns you into a hyperspace demon that can cover the entire map in two seconds. Buffed damage boost turns you a walking nuke. Players have little-to-no opportunity to counter a player under the effects of either one before dying.

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Oh I absolutely see where he is coming from, but as stated above this does not mean OS and Camo are stupid gimmicks on the level of AAs and equipment and that they have to go. In a proper Halo game (aka not the last three) both OS and Camo are put in proper spaces on the map and can be contested. Even after pickup they can be still countered through smart play and soft counters like the AR for camo and the PR for OS also exist. Saying they are completely fucked and give out free kills left and right is an oversimplification.

 

They are frustrating to fight against in H5 because Camo is excessively good and combined with all the visual noise on the maps and the shitty graphics it becomes very very hard to spot a camo guy until he has assassinated you or got 2-3 shots off.

OS is stupid because thanks to thrustslidejumphoverclamber the guy can be anywhere at any time (most likely right up in your face) and thanks to the excessive bullet magnetism and non-existing strafe you cannot outplay the dude at that point and simply lose in a war of attrition thanks to his 3x shields. These powerups were never a problem in the real first three Halo games.

 

And for the record I'm stoked to see what ideas Multi comes up with for his new project. I hope the key on Arkanum is a taste of things to come, because that is exactly the kind of stuff we need in this stale genre. If the game is even half as good as he saysit is, then it's going to be a blast to play and he has my full support.

I don't think theyre gimmicks, I think they're insanely OP in high level H5 doubles which is the context where I was referring to them. Both OS and camo are free kills.

 

Theres skill in setups, yes. And there are forms of management in playing against them, yes. But I think a huge role in their acceptance comes from the fact the powerups are as old as time and engraved in everyone's expectations. I'll have some better, more unique examples for players to use in the future that don't involve someone turning their brain off running in and soaking up damage.

 

Just about every map in my game is built around a mechanic, such as the key. Every map mechanic/element is unique and skillful. Not gimmicks. Really fun at low level play, really intelligent and malleable at high level.

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I don't think theyre gimmicks, I think they're insanely OP in high level H5 doubles which is the context where I was referring to them. Both OS and camo are free kills.

 

Theres skill in setups, yes. And there are forms of management in playing against them, yes. But I think a huge role in their acceptance comes from the fact the powerups are as old as time and engraved in everyone's expectations. I'll have some better, more unique examples for players to use in the future that don't involve someone turning their brain off running in and soaking up damage.

 

Just about every map in my game is built around a mechanic, such as the key. Every map mechanic/element is unique and skillful. Not gimmicks. Really fun at low level play, really intelligent and malleable at high level.

 

I never expected you to respond to this lol and sorry if I misquoted. IMO OS and camo are fine as is, although as I said they are clearly not balanced in H5, but then again so is the majority of the sandbox. Maybe I'm just too "stuck inside the box", but I don't see a powerup besides Haste working in Halo or a similar game. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong though. I guess we'll see when you can share more of your game's mechanics.

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Speed boost, in its default form from H4 and H5, is useless unless you're bumrushing a Warzone base. And even then, you have to stack two or three of them to get enough of a boost to actually make a difference, which is cheap as hell and would obviously break the game wide open in an arena setting.

 

You still have to hit your shots with regular damage boost.

 

 

I ask myself "does it work". Damage and speed boost have been around for two main titles now, and no, they don't work. In their default state, they're irrelevant and not worth their spot on the map. If you amplify the effect (by letting people stack multiple copies of the powerup), they suddenly become game-breaking. Buffed speed boost turns you into a hyperspace demon that can cover the entire map in two seconds. Buffed damage boost turns you a walking nuke. Players have little-to-no opportunity to counter a player under the effects of either one before dying.

 

I still don't understand your PoV here.  You are saying in its default form, speedboost is basically useless and so is damage boost, therefore combining them (well kinda... since there is more detail to Haste than just combining Halo's versions of damage boost and speed boost) would also be useless?  That doesn't make sense.  its a new thing to halo so you have no idea really and neither do I.  BUT we do have the example from Doom where its far from useless.  You're also saying that the only way to make either one of those existing mechanics useful would be to stack them multiple times when in reality there is a middle ground there.  Not to mention i would already argue that damage boost is useful but the damage increase per bullet aspect totally breaks power weapons.  Turning the sniper into Norfang and giving rockets a nuclear sized kill zone is not the same as letting a player shoot them a little faster.  Thats an execution problem that a Haste type powerup fixes.  And speedboost would already be useful if everybody didn't have a speedboost button on their controller.  Its useless because sprint is a thing, so lets blame the right thing here.  Its not Speedboost's fault that the ass-cancer that is sprint exists.

 

Again, there is no harm adding a bunch of shit to a halo game like this.  If it ends up sucking... just don't put it on maps. its not changing a core, ever present mechanic. its basically a variable that designers can add to their maps that doesn't fuck with the actual design of said map. If it works, use it, if not, don't.

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Multi's opinion on Power-Ups became that way because he discovered something more interesting when he made his map Arcanum. The map has a Key that spawns in three locations, and when you pick it up, you can open several doors in the map that create shortcuts and help you fight the enemy. However, you only have ten uses of the Key before it breaks, all of the doors create a loud noise, and you teleport to an open area after the last use. This makes Key usage a skill in itself, as smart players can utilize doors more efficiently, or even outright skip using a door. On the other side, the enemy can deduct how many times you've used the Key, and can set up ambushes.

 

A dynamic element in the form of an object, that gives one player the ability to succeed if he is smart and skilled. An Overshield and Camo don't have as deep of a system built into themselves; they give you three times health or make you invisible, basically a "You Win" scenario in almost any given situation minus burning the Power-Up. But I've seen for myself the different levels of smart plays with the Key in Arcanum, it's an added level of depth that makes the map incredibly interesting to play over and over, which is why it's my favorite map in Halo 5.

 

Imagine a set of maps that have some kind of controllable element that fundamentally changes how a match will go. One player gets that kind of power, all of the others have to figure out what he's going to do, regardless of them being friend or foe. And once that player dies, there's a fight to see who gets the power next. It's awesome to me.

Key sounds like an awesome, map specific powerup. But it’s not inherently BETTER than camo and overshield. Key certainly couldn’t be a modular addition like the other two, which can more readily go on any map without map designer or programmer considerations.

 

Speed boost, in its default form from H4 and H5, is useless unless you're bumrushing a Warzone base. And even then, you have to stack two or three of them to get enough of a boost to actually make a difference, which is cheap as hell and would obviously break the game wide open in an arena setting.

 

You still have to hit your shots with regular damage boost.

 

 

I ask myself "does it work". Damage and speed boost have been around for two main titles now, and no, they don't work. In their default state, they're irrelevant and not worth their spot on the map. If you amplify the effect (by letting people stack multiple copies of the powerup), they suddenly become game-breaking. Buffed speed boost turns you into a hyperspace demon that can cover the entire map in two seconds. Buffed damage boost turns you a walking nuke. Players have little-to-no opportunity to counter a player under the effects of either one before dying.

Speedboost is dumb alone, because making it worthwhile for contention requires a ganebreaking addition of speed, especially with sprint.

 

Haste isn’t comparable to damage boost though. Damage boost reduces the number of shots it takes to kill someone. This means you can be less accurate, and still get kills. Haste allows you to shoot faster- but the number of shots to kill doesn’t change- so you still need to have good aim.

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I’m a fan of the Extra Jump powerup in this one pseudo-arena shooter. It just increases your jump height by 10%. Unlike speed boost, this doesn’t really allow you to escape battles any better. It solely increases your unpredictability, much like Camo, since you can now take uncommon routes to gain the element of surprise. In Halo, this could easily be a double jump powerup to be more intuitive for players. It would also give 343 a way to incorporate the “lore” of the Spartan thrusters that was focused on so much in Halo 5. In the absence of enhanced mobility, one player slightly breaking the game for a minute is quite manageable and adds depth in use and counterplay. Just add a purple glow to their boots or something so people can anticipate the extra jump.

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In Halo, this could easily be a double jump powerup to be more intuitive for players. It would also give 343 a way to incorporate the “lore” of the Spartan thrusters that was focused on so much in Halo 5. In the absence of enhanced mobility, one player slightly breaking the game for a minute is quite manageable and adds depth in use and counterplay. Just add a purple glow to their boots or something so people can anticipate the extra jump.

 

I actually love this. Of course this only works if all the other nonsense is cut. But I can legit imagine this being huge. So many routes could be opened up by this, which makes it kind of a "who can make the most creative play in 45s" powerup, but at the same time it's not a broken POS ability because there's still the risk of dying and it doesn't make the game ez mode like damage boost. It also enables all the cool possibilities jetpacks offers, but without the gimmicky feel to it and the cheese known as hovercamping. And yes give the dude glowing boots or something that should do it.

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Unreal Tournament’s “Jump Boots” is the correct way to handle this. 3 uses. Hit jump while in the air already for a massive skyward thrust. It was fantastic and it would be awesome in Halo.

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