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A 3 shot pistol and a plasma pistol EMP with expanded capabilities (like disabling use of all "abilities" for X amount of seconds when hit, perfect fit from a lore standpoint) would keep most if not all of the armor/spartan abilities we've seen thus far pretty well in check.

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57 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

A 3 shot pistol and a plasma pistol EMP with expanded capabilities (like disabling use of all "abilities" for X amount of seconds when hit, perfect fit from a lore standpoint) would keep most if not all of the armor/spartan abilities we've seen thus far pretty well in check.

Gosh you really want a 3 shot pistol again don’t you? Why can’t we just have a 4 shot kill rifle or pistol with a perfect TTK of 1 second? 

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6 hours ago, Basu said:

Hot take: Invasion would play 10x better with no AAs an no bloom too. NR/PR and DMR/AR starts are fairly balanced, get rid of all the loadouts. Add in Promethean Soldiers with LR/Supressor starts if you have to but honestly the entire Promethean sandbox could just be axed. 

The biggest problem is the difference in hitboxes

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1 hour ago, Arlong said:

Gosh you really want a 3 shot pistol again don’t you? Why can’t we just have a 4 shot kill rifle or pistol with a perfect TTK of 1 second?

Why stop there when we know what works?

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Please no more Prometheans. Please.

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2 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Why stop there when we know what works?

Depends what’s your definition of working?  

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48 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Depends what’s your definition of working?  

In this case, my definition of working is having a base weapon powerful enough to anchor the entire sandbox, make the player feel that they can adequately defend themselves off spawn and make a play, and keep more specialized weapons (shotgun, sniper) from having to receive frustrating, unnecessary nerfs (like ticky-tack decreases in damage clip size or rate of fire) so that they don't end up dominating.

The 3 shot pistol accomplishes this. The battle rifle (much closer to your 4sk/1 second kill time ideal) does not.

As a special bonus, the pistol counters all the advanced movement bullshit, as we saw in Halo 5's "anniversary throwback" mode. Caught sprinting? Dead. Caught clambering or trying some sort of hover-thrust combo jump? Dead. Caught spartan charging? Dead. When the BR or binkymagnum is the starting weapon? That shit runs rampant and ruins the whole game. Why compromise?

(Granted that wasn't a perfect representation of the CE pistol, since it was hitscan and had a huge hit box and was therefore wasnt worth dropping for anything except for rockets, but I'm more than confident that would have seen similar results even if a more faithful version been used.)

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30 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

make the player feel that they can adequately defend themselves off spawn and make a play.

I don't think defense has much to do with killtimes in the regard you speak, because relative to the game you're playing, there's always gonna be the threshold of defense capability diminishing when you're shot after a certain amount of time. You being down a shot in CE is the same as being down two in Halo 5. The span of time this occurs isn't giving you more time for defense in CE's case, if anything, it's giving you less time to defend yourself in the event you get shot, let alone being shot in the back. Given your need to respond is effectively halved in an ideal circumstance where every bullet's hitting. Obviously idealistic, but just said for the sake of the argument.

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4 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I don't think defense has much to do with killtimes in the regard you speak, because relative to the game you're playing, there's always gonna be the threshold of defense capability diminishing when you're shot after a certain amount of time. You being down a shot in CE is the same as being down two in Halo 5. The span of time this occurs isn't giving you more time for defense in CE's case, if anything, it's giving you less time to defend yourself in the event you get shot, let alone being shot in the back. Given your need to respond is effectively halved in an ideal circumstance where every bullet's hitting. Obviously idealistic, but just said for the sake of the argument.

This is actually true, human reaction time & average controller turning sens don't scale with the kill times even if every other aspect of the sandbox is tuned accordingly. It's probably worth deciding where exactly that perfect balance is between a perfect fast kill that you can still have SOME degree of reaction too, but not too much to correct errors without penalties. Too short of a perfect kill time is definitely a thing, just like too long. 

 

Not saying this to push a stance btw, just worth thinking about. I think the .6s of CE is probably right on the money of what I think is healthy, any shorter would probably be problematic. I think I could live with up to .8 though. 1s is where I can start getting away with some stuff that I shouldn't. 

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36 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Not saying this to push a stance btw, just worth thinking about. I think the .6s of CE is probably right on the money of what I think is healthy, any shorter would probably be problematic. I think I could live with up to .8 though. 1s is where I can start getting away with some stuff that I shouldn't. 

The bolded leads to an interesting conversation I had with a few of the old mlg settings guys in H3/Reach. How do you decide when you got away with something that shouldn't have happened? It came up a lot especially in Reach because people were pretty set in their ways about what was or was not a good or bad decision in terms of Halo despite sprint really changing that landscape entirely. It lead into a lot of talks trying to really nail down different aspects of the armor abilities and if it was essentially reducing skill cap or if it was just changing what it looked like. The real answer is both. Personally I always thought it was a reduction because between sprint, bloom, and the actual kill speeds it just took entirely too much emphasis off of your position because unless you did something absurdly stupid or you got caught up in a 3v1 or more it was simply easier to escape or self correct your position than ever before which meant it was harder to make a definitively wrong decision and also less punishing when you did screw it up a bit

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2 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

This is actually true, human reaction time & average controller turning sens don't scale with the kill times even if every other aspect of the sandbox is tuned accordingly. It's probably worth deciding where exactly that perfect balance is between a perfect fast kill that you can still have SOME degree of reaction too, but not too much to correct errors without penalties. Too short of a perfect kill time is definitely a thing, just like too long. 

 

Not saying this to push a stance btw, just worth thinking about. I think the .6s of CE is probably right on the money of what I think is healthy, any shorter would probably be problematic. I think I could live with up to .8 though. 1s is where I can start getting away with some stuff that I shouldn't. 

Just for my own edification, what was the kill time of a perfect 4 shot in H2?

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16 minutes ago, Hully said:

Just for my own edification, what was the kill time of a perfect 4 shot in H2?

1.43 seconds

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11 hours ago, Arlong said:

The biggest problem is the difference in hitboxes

In Reach the Elites moved faster and had more shields as well as health recharge while spartans had to rely on healthpacks. Balances out the hitboxes.

Aside from asymmetrical gamemodes Elites shouldn't exist. One of the only good things 343 did to this franchise is to get rid of playing as Elites in standard MM.

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9 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

This is actually true, human reaction time & average controller turning sens don't scale with the kill times even if every other aspect of the sandbox is tuned accordingly. It's probably worth deciding where exactly that perfect balance is between a perfect fast kill that you can still have SOME degree of reaction too, but not too much to correct errors without penalties. Too short of a perfect kill time is definitely a thing, just like too long. 

 

Not saying this to push a stance btw, just worth thinking about. I think the .6s of CE is probably right on the money of what I think is healthy, any shorter would probably be problematic. I think I could live with up to .8 though. 1s is where I can start getting away with some stuff that I shouldn't. 

What would you describe as “getting away with some stuff that I shouldn’t” 

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3 hours ago, Basu said:

In Reach the Elites moved faster and had more shields as well as health recharge while spartans had to rely on healthpacks. Balances out the hitboxes.

Aside from asymmetrical gamemodes Elites shouldn't exist. One of the only good things 343 did to this franchise is to get rid of playing as Elites in standard MM.

You’ll find that many would disagree with balancing in that regard. I mean bungee actually did that, where they made it so elites were playable in invasion or elite slayer which you’d see in playlist like rumble pit or team slayer. They don’t move so fast where hitting them is any difficult either I’ll add.

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2 hours ago, Arlong said:

You’ll find that many would disagree with balancing in that regard. I mean bungee actually did that, where they made it so elites were playable in invasion or elite slayer which you’d see in playlist like rumble pit or team slayer. They don’t move so fast where hitting them is any difficult either I’ll add.

More health and plasma starts more than offset the hitboxes. It's not like Halos outside of CE and H3 require a ton of skill to hit one's shots anyways 

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An ideology that you should embrace is making a gamemode outside of arena as crazy as possible.  Sprint. Thruster, Jetpack, etc.  Let’s be real here, from a marketing standpoint, arena is boring.  Can you sell a responsive strafe or reliable utility weapon or static timers?  No but giant multiplayer battles with Spartans, Elites, Brutes, and Prometheans would look pretty cool in a commercial.  

In addition, this would give a hashtag lore reason for arena base movement speed to be set to 120%.  Spartans kitted up with Thrusters and Jetpacks and Ability Trackers are carrying extra weight so they move at 100% speed.  Scout-like Arena Spartans carry a Magnum and nothing else, allowing them to move at 120% speed.  Arena maps can now be built with 120% base movement speed in mind.  

Think of it this way, to keep all this stuff out of arena, find another place to put it.  Also, this allows 343 to not completely walk back the whole sprint/thrust thing.  Advanced movement is still in the game, in Invasion gametypes.  Other niche gametypes can use these resources, like Evade in Infection or Sprint in SWAT.  

By making other gametypes unique, you are actually making Arena unique, in the fact that it forgoes many of these “features” offered by other gametypes. 

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14 minutes ago, Basu said:

More health and plasma starts more than offset the hitboxes. It's not like Halos outside of CE and H3 require a ton of skill to hit one's shots anyways 

More health? Um you could still 5sk or 6sk to the head I’ll add. 
also in reach the plasma pistol lock-on wasn’t really accurate, in fact it was easily dodged, because it didn’t have a huge tons of magnetism. 

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18 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

A 3 shot pistol and a plasma pistol EMP with expanded capabilities (like disabling use of all "abilities" for X amount of seconds when hit, perfect fit from a lore standpoint) would keep most if not all of the armor/spartan abilities we've seen thus far pretty well in check.

If we admit something needs to be put in check, then an inherent check is in order. Designing a weapon to counter abilities sounds great, that is, until you're on the other side and can't do a thing about it. It would be like placing a weapon in a shitty area of a map to theoretically 'counter' a broken position, just to see players carry the weapon up to said position, and tip the scales even more in favor of the broken spot. 

But, a better utility weapon is an inherent check, so bravo

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5 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

If we admit something needs to be put in check, then an inherent check is in order. Designing a weapon to counter abilities sounds great, that is, until you're on the other side and can't do a thing about it. It would be like placing a weapon in a shitty area of a map to theoretically 'counter' a broken position, just to see players carry the weapon up to said position, and tip the scales even more in favor of the broken spot. 

But, a better utility weapon is an inherent check, so bravo

In my opinion we just need the DMR with a perfect TTK of 1 second. I don’t like the CE pistol because of the large ass reticule that for some reason in order to aim with it you’re supposed to have that persons head or body on your side reticule. 

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11 minutes ago, Arlong said:

In my opinion we just need the DMR with a perfect TTK of 1 second. I don’t like the CE pistol because of the large ass reticule that for some reason in order to aim with it you’re supposed to have that persons head or body on your side reticule. 

I'm personally not a fan of the DMR's scope it steps too much on the Snipers territory. Revamp the DMR to a 2x scope and get rid of the BR. 

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37 minutes ago, Stoppabl3 said:

I'm personally not a fan of the DMR's scope it steps too much on the Snipers territory. Revamp the DMR to a 2x scope and get rid of the BR. 

BR - no scope 

Magnum - 2x scope 

DMR - 3x scope 

Sniper Rifle - 4x scope 

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8 minutes ago, Boyo said:

BR - no scope 

Magnum - 2x scope 

DMR - 3x scope 

Sniper Rifle - 4x scope 

The autos fill the no scope niche already. Can’t imagine the frustration of using a precision weapon without a scope. Doesn’t make sense. Just let go of the BR my friend. 

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The Battle Rifle and the Light Rifle are nearly identical.  RT fires in three round bursts, killing in 12 shots with a headshot in 1.4 seconds.  The difference is, LT either activates a 3x scope or performs a Combo.  

While scoped, the Light Rifle is semi automatic, killing in 3 shots with a headshot in 0.9 seconds, giving it the advantage at long range.  The Battle Rifle has no scope but can perform Doubleshots and BXRs, giving it the advantage at close range. 

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

An ideology that you should embrace is making a gamemode outside of arena as crazy as possible.  Sprint. Thruster, Jetpack, etc.  Let’s be real here, from a marketing standpoint, arena is boring.  Can you sell a responsive strafe or reliable utility weapon or static timers?  No but giant multiplayer battles with Spartans, Elites, Brutes, and Prometheans would look pretty cool in a commercial.  

In addition, this would give a hashtag lore reason for arena base movement speed to be set to 120%.  Spartans kitted up with Thrusters and Jetpacks and Ability Trackers are carrying extra weight so they move at 100% speed.  Scout-like Arena Spartans carry a Magnum and nothing else, allowing them to move at 120% speed.  Arena maps can now be built with 120% base movement speed in mind.  

Think of it this way, to keep all this stuff out of arena, find another place to put it.  Also, this allows 343 to not completely walk back the whole sprint/thrust thing.  Advanced movement is still in the game, in Invasion gametypes.  Other niche gametypes can use these resources, like Evade in Infection or Sprint in SWAT.  

By making other gametypes unique, you are actually making Arena unique, in the fact that it forgoes many of these “features” offered by other gametypes. 

When I browse reddit all I ever see is "HEY GUYS WOULDN'T IT BE KOOL IF <crazy idea> SPINOFF", like people want everything except for a standard Halo game, like they have this bizarre fucking AVERSION to Halo just being Halo.  So in a sense you're not even wrong.  I wanna die.

But all you do with that ideology is cause the game to be fractured at it's very core.  Resource allotment continues to be imbalanced for one direction or another, the genuine experience gets buried under all the modern shit, the fanbase divide continues to exist, so on.  I mean dude did you not live through Warzone and Halo 5, and their absolutely pathetic "sustain" that was a direct result of that?

So I don't see that as something to embrace.

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