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Halo Infinite Discussion

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3 hours ago, Arlong said:

Tbh that’s not that bad. It’s avtua kinda cool when you think about it, especially since it was the Didact who did it because of his immense hatred of humans. He wanted to punish humans for the war they started, the killing of his people, and although not their fault, he blamed them for the flood finding the four runners, as the humans were fleeing the flood, but evidence shows that the floods creation is the result of the four runners killing the precursors. 

All four of em, huh?

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47 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

All four of em, huh?

Stfu lmao. I’m on mobile and fourrunner gets corrected as separate words, by the auto correct.

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13 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Stfu lmao. I’m on mobile and fourrunner gets corrected as separate words, by the auto correct.

Omfg

@darkstar you might be onto something with that theory.

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48 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Omfg

@darkstar you might be onto something with that theory.

You’re weird you know that? 

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How important is the Reload mechanic to Halo?  How differently would the game play if all weapons had bottomless clips or were battery operated?

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59 minutes ago, Boyo said:

How important is the Reload mechanic to Halo?  How differently would the game play if all weapons had bottomless clips or were battery operated?

Finally an interesting topic.

I think it's first important to define what reloading actually is mechanically.  It's having variation between standard firing delay between individual bullets and a separate reload delay between groups of bullets.  Like you "reload" single-shot weapons such as the Super Shotgun in DooM, Sniper Rifle in TF2 or Railgun in Quake but no one considers that to be reloading, as functionally it is completely indistinguishable from their firing rate, they ALWAYS "reload", they ALWAYS fire at that speed.  Likewise having a gun that, when you hold down the fire button, fires three shots in rapid succession then takes several seconds to prepare the next three shots isn't any less reloading just because there isn't an arbitrary manual button press involved in the middle of it.  Reloading is specifically when you fire a group of shots then have a long delay between firing the next group of shots, instead of just continuously firing all bullets you have at a static rate.  

For weapons like the Rocket Launcher and maybe the Sniper Rifle, it kind of makes sense.  If you made every shot fire slowly it would be too easy to punish a single missed shot.  Some might argue it should be easy, but not gonna weigh in on that.  Conversely if you made every shot fire at just the current rate, you just lead to people getting third, fourth, fifth chances.  Right now you get the sort of fast second rocket, and then you're punished hard if you fuck that one up too, it's a compromise.

For weapons like the utility, it's just pointless.  It's extremely unlikely you're going to bottom out your entire magazine of twelve-fifteen trigger pulls on just a single target, and with multiple targets all it's doing is limiting the amount of enemies you can theoretically kill and punishing you for not having literally 100% perfect aim.  You killed three people but still only have three of the four bullets required to kill the next guy left over?  Sorry out of luck, pull out of the fight or accept defeat before firing a single shot.  And since magazine counts are so large with these guns typically catching someone reloading isn't a deliberate act that you intentionally bait them into doing either, it's something you randomly stumble upon and think "oh sweet, this guy just happens to be out of ammo and reloading, free kill for me".  It strikes me as very similar to Sprint in that way.

Overall I don't consider reloading to be a positive.  I think it's pointlessly random and restrictive and exists mostly as just an immersion thing than an actually purposeful game mechanic.  At the same time though whatever negative effects I think it has are just largely situational and barely an impact on the game.  I can tolerate it's presence but definitely think the game would be better off without it in most cases.

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59 minutes ago, Boyo said:

How differently would the game play if all weapons had bottomless clips or were battery operated?

Basically a slower paced Doom.

Net positive, personally

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@Ramirez77

We are on the same page in that regard, Reload is pointless on the Utility but a nice balancing factor on the Rocket Launcher.  

It is still possible to have alternating (short and long) fire delays on the rocket launcher if we modify the fire mechanic a little.  Tapping the trigger fires a rocket with a long fire delay (like reloading long).  Holding the fire button fires a rocket.  Releasing the fire button fires a second rocket (followed by a long fire delay).  Using hold and release, the rocket launcher can still fire two rockets in quick succession with a long delay after the second.  If you don’t want to fire the second rocket, you can YY out.

I know it’s a bit convoluted but that is one way that we could do away with the Reload mechanic while still retaining the tempo of the rocket launcher.

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14 minutes ago, Boyo said:

@Ramirez77

We are on the same page in that regard, Reload is pointless on the Utility but a nice balancing factor on the Rocket Launcher.  

It is still possible to have alternating (short and long) fire delays on the rocket launcher if we modify the fire mechanic a little.  Tapping the trigger fires a rocket with a long fire delay (like reloading long).  Holding the fire button fires a rocket.  Releasing the fire button fires a second rocket (followed by a long fire delay).  Using hold and release, the rocket launcher can still fire two rockets in quick succession with a long delay after the second.  If you don’t want to fire the second rocket, you can YY out.

I know it’s a bit convoluted but that is one way that we could do away with the Reload mechanic while still retaining the tempo of the rocket launcher.

I'd personally prefer a reload with the RL. Having to kill a guy with one is hard enough, I don't want to get spammed with 2 immediate rockets because I avoided getting killed by the first. Also why would anyone ever just tap the trigger if there's a long fire delay, when you can hold and release for two quicker shots? Especially if you can YY your way out of firing the second rocket if the first one happened to kill. There's very little risk or reason there to tap the trigger. 

As far as the utility, would you put a overheat/cooling mechanic with limited ammo? Unlimited ammo? Or would you just give it a limited ammo with no overheat/cooling.

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@JordanB

There would still be a short cooldown after firing the first Rocket by holding the trigger down (or else tapping the trigger would just appear to be a very short hold and release).  Tapping the trigger is so that if someone panick shoots, a Rocket is still fired.

The Utility would just be a bottomless clip Magnum (limited ammo but no overheating or cooldowns).  Maybe I would design the Spartan model in such a way that the armor feeds a belt of rounds into the Magnum to explain the small weapon size but large magazine size.

 

Alright next question, would you prefer a Battle Rifle with a scope that cannot perform button combos or a Battle Rifle with no scope that can perform button combos?

 

 

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Reloading really exists to put a cap on the amount of aggression and pressure a single player can typically produce. There is also something to be said about knowing when to reload as it does open up avenues for players to make mistakes. Constantly reloading after 2 shots? I bet you get caught out doing it all the time. Have 2 shots left in the middle of a gun fight with people peaking in and out do you back down or try to finish the kill? Someone backs down do you immediately reload or wait to see if they jump back out? Did you simply forget to reload sometimes? Having a bottomless clip would change in game situations in some cases pretty significantly not sure I would want the thought process behind it all removed

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@Snipe Three

I can see what you’re saying but do we want to put a cap on player aggression?  If you can outshoot 8 enemies in a row, shouldn’t you be able to?

Also, how much does Reload really add to the game?  Yes, a bit of manual resource management but compared to what other buttons on the controller do, Reload doesn’t really have a profound effect on gameplay.  Fire, Throw grenade, Melee, Jump, Crouch, all movement and combat functions.  Switch weapon, Switch grenades, preparation for combat.  

Scope increases combat effectiveness.  The need to Reload reduces combat effectiveness.

In a pick up game like Halo, you are always managing what items you have, so I don’t think the removal of a minor resource, like Reload, to manage is a big loss.  Power weapons typically have slow rates of fire and limited ammo anyway so I don’t see a significant loss to gameplay by removing Reload.

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I feel the same way about reload as i do about replacing the Magnum with a DMR as the starting weapon.

Is it ridiculous that we should make basically any decisions regarding gameplay based on "realism" or #immersion! in a digital pretend world?  yes, yes it is.

But at the same time, its one of those things that has such a negligible effect on gameplay that it's almost worth it to just keep it so we don't have to listen to the incessant  whining from the kids that think lore and immersion should inform gameplay above all else. Keep reloading and just make the mags deep, replace the pistol with a DMR skin and chunkier sound. Throw the "But a SIDEARM shouldn't do so much DaMAgE!!" kids a bone and fight for the shit that really matters.

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Although I love the idea of a no reload Halo in concept, the thought of players mindless spamming shots just gives me a headache. Definitely wouldn't hurt to try though.

I kinda disagree on reload being more of an accidental/happenstance punishment, especially at higher tiers of play. Maybe on the lower end of the skill spectrum this true, but not so much on the high end. Counting shots and actively waiting for players to reload is a common thing.

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7 minutes ago, The Tyco said:

Counting shots and actively waiting for players to reload is a common thing.

This is not something I have ever done or seen being done.  The BR has a 36 round magazine.  That’s 12 bursts.  You mean to tell me there’s players out there going “ok that’s nine bursts, ten bursts, 11 bursts, we almost got him!”?

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12 hours ago, Ramirez77 said:

Finally an interesting topic.

I think it's first important to define what reloading actually is mechanically.  It's having variation between standard firing delay between individual bullets and a separate reload delay between groups of bullets.  Like you "reload" single-shot weapons such as the Super Shotgun in DooM, Sniper Rifle in TF2 or Railgun in Quake but no one considers that to be reloading, as functionally it is completely indistinguishable from their firing rate, they ALWAYS "reload", they ALWAYS fire at that speed.  Likewise having a gun that, when you hold down the fire button, fires three shots in rapid succession then takes several seconds to prepare the next three shots isn't any less reloading just because there isn't an arbitrary manual button press involved in the middle of it.  Reloading is specifically when you fire a group of shots then have a long delay between firing the next group of shots, instead of just continuously firing all bullets you have at a static rate.  

For weapons like the Rocket Launcher and maybe the Sniper Rifle, it kind of makes sense.  If you made every shot fire slowly it would be too easy to punish a single missed shot.  Some might argue it should be easy, but not gonna weigh in on that.  Conversely if you made every shot fire at just the current rate, you just lead to people getting third, fourth, fifth chances.  Right now you get the sort of fast second rocket, and then you're punished hard if you fuck that one up too, it's a compromise.

For weapons like the utility, it's just pointless.  It's extremely unlikely you're going to bottom out your entire magazine of twelve-fifteen trigger pulls on just a single target, and with multiple targets all it's doing is limiting the amount of enemies you can theoretically kill and punishing you for not having literally 100% perfect aim.  You killed three people but still only have three of the four bullets required to kill the next guy left over?  Sorry out of luck, pull out of the fight or accept defeat before firing a single shot.  And since magazine counts are so large with these guns typically catching someone reloading isn't a deliberate act that you intentionally bait them into doing either, it's something you randomly stumble upon and think "oh sweet, this guy just happens to be out of ammo and reloading, free kill for me".  It strikes me as very similar to Sprint in that way.

Overall I don't consider reloading to be a positive.  I think it's pointlessly random and restrictive and exists mostly as just an immersion thing than an actually purposeful game mechanic.  At the same time though whatever negative effects I think it has are just largely situational and barely an impact on the game.  I can tolerate it's presence but definitely think the game would be better off without it in most cases.

That’s a thing in BF2 and I really hate it. 

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Just now, Arlong said:

That’s a thing in BF2 and I really hate it. 

What is a thing in BF2 and why do you hate it?

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44 minutes ago, Boyo said:

This is not something I have ever done or seen being done.  The BR has a 36 round magazine.  That’s 12 bursts.  You mean to tell me there’s players out there going “ok that’s nine bursts, ten bursts, 11 bursts, we almost got him!”?

Yes, it is something I actively do, and I expect many higher level players also do it. It's very easy to do in a game like Halo where everyone has the same weapons and limited weapon pool. It's more of a 1v1 thing, but understanding when a player is about to reload is important if you ever want make aggressive plays or press and opening in their line of fire.

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50 minutes ago, Arlong said:

That’s a thing in BF2 and I really hate it. 

You might want to clarify that you're talking about Star Wars BF2, cause I was confused for a minute.

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2 minutes ago, The Tyco said:

You might want to clarify that you're talking about Star Wars BF2, cause I was confused for a minute.

What else did you think of? Battlefield 2? 

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5 minutes ago, The Tyco said:

Yes, it is something I actively do, and I expect many higher level players also do it. It's very easy to do in a game like Halo where everyone has the same weapons and limited weapon pool. It's more of a 1v1 thing, but understanding when a player is about to reload is important if you ever want make aggressive plays or press and opening in their line of fire.

I don’t think many count their opponents shots, but I definitely imagine many count their own. It gives me, you, whoever an idea how much damage I’ve done now, especially in h3.

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By removing the Reload mechanic, we end up with two free face buttons.  These become “Deploy Equipment 1” and “Deploy Equipment 2”.

 

Button Layout 

 

RT - Fire

RB - Throw Grenade 

LT - Scope, Alternate Fire

LB - Jump (Jetpack pick up)

A - Deploy Equipment 1 

B - Deploy Equipment 2 

X - Switch grenades (Hold to swap weapon, Hold to Activate)

Y - Switch weapons (Hold to swap Equipment Package)

L3 - Crouch 

R3 - Melee 

 

Now that there are two Equipment buttons, Equipment pick ups come in packs of two called “Equipment Packages”.

 

Equipment Packages 

 

Mobility (medium range) - Sprint, Thrust 

Mobility (long range) - Hoverboard, Glider 

Mobility (short range, omni) - Gravity Lift, Grapple 

Mobility (teleport short) - Fire/Recall Translocator, Teleport 

Mobility (teleport long) - Entrance Node, Exit Node 

Mobility (teleport continuous) - Alpha Portal, Beta Portal 

 

Defense - Hardlight Shield, Bubble Shield 

Offense - Flamethrower, Missile Pod 

EMP - Grenade Launcher, Power Drain 

Info - Sonic Pulse, Detection Post 

Deception - Body Double, Hologram 

Modify - Artifact, Ordnance Beacon 

 

Sprint is a long duration, forward speed boost.

Thrust is a short duration, multi directional speed boost.

 

The Hoverboard moves they user forward, fast while on the ground.  Can turn left and right.

The Glider moves the user forward, relatively fast while in their air.  Lose altitude over distance but can turn left and right.

 

Gravity Lift propels players who enter upward.

Grapple fires a limited range projectile that pulls the user to the point of impact.

 

The A button fires and recalls the Translocator.  The B button teleports the user to the Translocator.

 

The A button drops a self erecting teleporter entrance node.  The B button drops a self erecting teleporter exit node.  Nodes can be destroyed through damage.

 

The A button fires a projectile that creates a portal on impact with certain surfaces.  The B button fires a projectile that creates a portal on impact with certain surfaces.  When both portals are active, they are linked, allowing players and projectiles to freely pass between.

 

The Hardlight Shield is a unlimited health, uni directional, mobile shield.

The Bubble Shield is a limited health, omni directional, stationary shield 

 

The Flamethrower is a short range, automatic, anti infantry weapon.

The Missile Pod is a long range, semi automatic, anti vehicle weapon.

 

The Grenade Launcher releases a single blast of EMP damage.  

The Power Drain releases a continuous field of EMP damage.  

 

Sonic Pulse temporarily tags proximate enemies with a waypoint for the user.

Once planted, the Detection Post temporarily tags an enemy who passes through its radius with a waypoint visible only to the user.

 

Body Double spawns a stationary hologram a short distance in front of the user.  The body double’s position, relative to the user, is locked but its orientation is not, meaning the user could spawn a hologram in front of him, turn 90 degrees right, then strafe left and there would appear to be two users, in a vertical line, facing right but strafing forward.

The Hologram sends a visual copy of the user running forward.

 

Artifact activates a proximate, scripted map event.

Ordnance Beacon gives the user a selection of three Ordnance items.

 

Two Equipment slots means more than just two independent abilities.  Two buttons allows for finer control which leads to more unique items.  For example, a remotely operated turret is deployed with A.  B toggles the user’s view between his Spartan and the remote turret, allowing him to deal damage from two separate locations.

 

What else is possible with two Equipment buttons?

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12 hours ago, Boyo said:

This is not something I have ever done or seen being done.  The BR has a 36 round magazine.  That’s 12 bursts.  You mean to tell me there’s players out there going “ok that’s nine bursts, ten bursts, 11 bursts, we almost got him!”?

I have aggressively pushed players knowing they don’t have enough ammo to finish the kill more times than I can count. I’m not literally counting to twelve, but I can sense it. I’m fairly certain that it’s a common tactic.

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19 minutes ago, Boyo said:

What else is possible with two Equipment buttons?

Me not playing this game

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If we have free buttons i would rather have it be used for a communication system like a proper ping.  Something so players that won't/can't use mics can still kind of let me know wtf they are seeing.

 

Also.... if we have a free button or 2 thats really ok.  We should not feel obligated to use them simply because they exist.

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