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Halo Infinite Discussion

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6 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Halo 3 level BR RNG - Has a real effect that changes the winner and loser occasionally in BR vs BR gunfights. Easily fixed 100% post-launch or significantly mitigated in other ways (ie MLG-esque damage increase).

Sprint - Has a real, pervasive effect throughout the entire design of the game.  Impossible to fix post launch. Map scale, BMS, aim assist, magnetism, RRR, average engagement distance, slower average scoring pace.  I know im missing a bunch.

 

So yeah, i'll take the H3 BR over sprint any day of the week.

Okay, and here's the thing. One is affecting straight up gunfights in an inconsistent manner, and who's winning and losing, and is a coded in flaw to neuter the player's ability to do anything solo. EVEN IF it's present occasionally, why the fuck is that preferable to just a movement mechanic altering how you hold/traverse a map and angle. The thing is too, sprint isn't turning the game into a random mix of speeds and action, the action itself is just being focused into potentially new areas that you learn, and is designed for that. Haven still has a top mid, Coli still has snipe-side, Fathom, its enemy treehouse, etc. There is still defined flow when the maps are designed to a mechanic. And furthermore, there is no such thing as "fixing" that. Removing the mechanic and changing the map is just changing it. Because the game wasn't designed flawed, and likewise, it wasn't designed without the mechanic in mind. It was designed with that mechanic in mind and is meant to be played as such. And even if your weapon was guaranteed to be easier, like say, Halo 5, assuming it shares that 100% accuracy, you're not randomly changing how it works on a gunfight by gunfight basis, barring errors like lag. It's just easier for every gunfight. It's consistent. And you can work with consistency. You can't work when your base gun legitimately doesn't fire straight. We know v8 MLG settings don't actually fix the gun. It's just "significantly" mitigated, which means nothing to me. Because it's still a problem.

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Change a few words around with the sprint debate and suddenly you're debating climate change.  

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2 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Change a few words around with the sprint debate and suddenly you're debating climate change.  

I feel like you don't understand climate change, lol.

Still does nothing to actually argue my point.

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Just now, Apoll0 said:

Change a few words around with the sprint debate and suddenly you're debating climate change.  

I was actually thinking that a lot of things that could be said about an unreliable utility could also be said about sprint.

14 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

One is affecting straight up gunfights in an inconsistent manner, and who's winning and losing

Like one player beginning a gunfight with his weapon down and the other with his weapon up?

15 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

you're not randomly changing how it works on a gunfight by gunfight basis

Same as above.

15 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

And you can work with consistency.

Like one consistent movement speed that maps can be designed around so that there are no “no man’s land” that need to be sprinted through.

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7 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Like one player beginning a gunfight with his weapon down and the other with his weapon up?

Same as above.

Like one consistent movement speed that maps can be designed around so that there are no “no man’s land” that need to be sprinted through.

One player sprinting where they shouldn't be isn't an inconsistent flaw of the game, lol. You're in direct control of that. One's just being punished for having their gun down, like one would be for having their back turned.

Second, no man's lands without sprint? What the actual hell is Guardian or Lockout's top mid in comparison to what surrounds them, lol. No man's lands. Literal dead, open space. It'll happen regardless of sprint's existence if you have some shoddy (or intentional, teehee) map design.

 

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13 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I feel like you don't understand climate change, lol.

Still does nothing to actually argue my point.

I guess thats what im trying to say. There is no point. No amount of logic or bullet pointed pro/con lists or anything is going to convince a pro-sprint/am or anti-sprint/am person to switch sides. Just like debating climate change.  Its just not going to happen.  And there aren't exactly any people that are 'Uninitiated' to the arguments around here anymore to educate.  So whats the point? Pull my hair out just to maintain the status quo? nah thanks.

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54 minutes ago, L377UC3 said:

Jesus Beast you were cool what the fuck happened.

Let's just say I'm even COOLER now. Hehe. Ice cold if you will. 

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16 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

I guess thats what im trying to say. There is no point. No amount of logic or bullet pointed pro/con lists or anything is going to convince a pro-sprint/am or anti-sprint/am person to switch sides. Just like debating climate change.  Its just not going to happen.  And there aren't exactly any people that are 'Uninitiated' to the arguments around here anymore to educate.  So whats the point? Pull my hair out just to maintain the status quo? nah thanks.

Okay, just because people don't accept something doesn't suddenly mean it's not worth talking about or that the points don't exist. Like climate change. I don't really care how many argue against it as if it's fake, I'm still gonna talk about it adamantly if people are making flawed points. Climate change overall is a poor analogy nonetheless for something we can objectively measure, define, and show to people. You can't exactly have a 100% defined, objective view on game design in that sense. As we know by what people like, and how people are able to design games, along with what's successful. And how many different conclusions we can come to for change that may or may not work. One's inevitable, consistently negative, and objective to a fault. The other is the reason we have diverse-ass games on the market now. It's also the reason games like Destiny and Halo 5 play radically differently while sharing many features. Because the launch pads may be the same but our actual end point through design can deviate massively as a result of creativity.

Likewise, I don't need you to suddenly switch sides, I'm not even sitting on a side, I want to see how you counter what I'm saying. Regardless of a shift in mind or not. It's kinda what these are for. You can have good implementations, you can have bad. What I argue against is the idea one mechanic can be clearly defined as good or bad when it simply isn't that black and white.

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Both sprint and random spread are garbage mechanics for Halo so in my mind I have 2 options in this scenario

1. Sprint is in the game, in which case I would advocate for its removal (we've seen how well that's gone so far...) but at which point the game has already been designed and made with sprint in mind so now I'm only really left with the option of playing forge maps without sprint and that's about as good as it's going to get for me with a game that is designed around sprint.

2. Spread is in the game, in which case I advocate for it's removal (as I will do when Halo 3 comes to PC, and I imagine will a hell of a lot more success than we've had with sprint considering PC players don't put up with BS) in the mean time I can play on modded servers that the community has made that have 0 spread with a sandbox and maps that weren't designed with sprint in mind, also throw in any forge maps too while you're at it. 

I understand that sprint being a 'garbage' mechanic isn't an objective fact, and that you very well could make the claim that spread is objectively bad because of its RNG nature, and I would agree with you, but let's not pretend that it's completely inconceivable that a scenario could occur where spread would be favorable over sprint despite it being objectively bad. I've been advocating for the removal of sprint since it was introduced as a base mechanic in Halo 4, and if you told me that we could get rid of it forever in exchange for a mechanic that, unlike sprint, with enough community outrage would have a decent likelihood of being removed from the game without it having huge game breaking implication for the rest of the core game, and in a worst case scenario, could be removed in about 5 minutes by the modding community allowing people to enjoy the entire core game on hosted servers instead of just forge maps, then YES I'm going to favor spread over sprint 100 out of 100 times.

Of course I only speak for myself when I say all of this, and I appreciate that it's totally possible that someone else could prefer the sprint root because that's just their preference or it suites their oddly specific point of view, but that really highlights what this all comes down to, preference. The sooner we stop acting like our preferences are facts just because they contain things that you could argue as objective, the smoother these kind of discussions will go in the future.

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17 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Second, no man's lands without sprint? What the actual hell is Guardian or Lockout's top mid in comparison to what surrounds them, lol. No man's lands. Literal dead, open space. It'll happen regardless of sprint's existence if you have some shoddy (or intentional, teehee) map design.

I believe Lockout’s top mid being open was conscious design decision.  It was a choice.  Sprint REQUIRES elongated areas, no man’s lands, else players could traverse the map too quickly.  Forcing map design into a certain style, a style that doesn’t produce great Halo maps, is bad for the game.

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1 minute ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Boy we're really doing this again aren't we 

I'm trying really hard to just be a bystander this time. but its not easy.

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Just now, Boyo said:

I believe Lockout’s top mid being open was conscious design decision.  It was a choice.  Sprint REQUIRES elongated areas, no man’s lands, else players could traverse the map too quickly.  Forcing map design into a certain style, a style that doesn’t produce great Halo maps, is bad for the game.

Of course it's all conscious, that's my tongue-in-cheek point. It had to have been thought out and designed that way, and it was designed with an open, no man's land top mid, without sprint. As was Guardian. Second, no, sprint doesn't require no land's lands. Lanes of engagement being shifted? Sure. But you're not forced to have random dead space. As we see with maps like Fathom. Which has little, if any dead space overall in spite of its movement. Even in pit, which you can use to shoot to window with a wider vantage point, while having more cover than the top middle/bridge counterpart. And as Lockout, and Guardian show, you're not suddenly gonna have no dead space without sprint.

Last point on its own is a funny argument. Sprint forcing a style of map design that doesn't produce great Halo maps. As if older-style Halos didn't give us Longest, Narrows, Construct, Gemini, Ascension, Epitaph, Isolation, Blood Gulch, High Ground, Zanzibar, Valhalla, and a slew of other actual bullshit that isn't good to play on for their own reasons despite lacking sprint. It's as if good or bad map design just comes from the map designer's ability, and isn't exactly limited by abilities given to the player. Not to be passive aggressive, but who'da thought, lol.

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7 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

map design just comes from the map designer's ability, and isn't exactly limited by abilities given to the player

The synergy between base player movement (and traits in general) and map design is one of the most important core aspects of a shooter.  Sprint as a base trait in Halo causes map design to suffer because it puts too much emphasis on traversing the map horizontally.  

Maps can be inherently tighter without sprint.  Maps can be bigger without sprint but maps cannot shrink beyond a certain size before sprint is no longer a viable mechanic.  I prefer my Halo closer up and in my face, when it can be.

Verticality.  When a base trait is so focused on horizontal movement, vertical movement can suffer.  I think no sprint gives a more even distribution of horizontal and vertical player movement.  Tighter maps with more verticality vs longer maps with less verticality.  I prefer the former.

In classic Halos, I felt connected to the game.  Every input on the controller instantly translating into actions on screen.  I was immersed in the game.  With sprint, I feel less connected, like I am watching myself play.  

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

The synergy between base player movement (and traits in general) and map design is one of the most important core aspects of a shooter.  Sprint as a base trait in Halo causes map design to suffer because it puts too much emphasis on traversing the map horizontally.  

Maps can be inherently tighter without sprint.  Maps can be bigger without sprint but maps cannot shrink beyond a certain size before sprint is no longer a viable mechanic.  I prefer my Halo closer up and in my face, when it can be.

Verticality.  When a base trait is so focused on horizontal movement, vertical movement can suffer.  I think no sprint gives a more even distribution of horizontal and vertical player movement.  Tighter maps with more verticality vs longer maps with less verticality.  I prefer the former.

In classic Halos, I felt connected to the game.  Every input on the controller instantly translating into actions on screen.  I was immersed in the game.  With sprint, I feel less connected, like I am watching myself play.  

Yeah, it's a lot of preference. Also really doesn't touch on my points.

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Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, it's a lot of preference. Also really doesn't touch on my points.

You said map design wasn’t limited by base player traits and I explained to you why I believe it is.

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

You said map design wasn’t limited by base player traits and I explained to you why I believe it is.

Yeah, just revert back to older maps, lol. Even in that example. Think on a map like Narrows, then think on Fathom. Or maps like with Plaza, or Eden. Verticality obviously does exist, be there sprint or none. Sometimes it's squandered without it, sometimes it's more prevalent with it. And the hallways of Fathom, Rig, Plaza, etc are all tight knit areas, much like Pit's hallways, or Construct's. So on and so forth. Because map design isn't inherently limited to player traits, and elements like CQC or verticality emphasis can be implemented regardless of your ability set.

Don't really care about immersion. Least in MP.

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Why should we have to resort to Forge maps and new settings every time we have a Halo come out?

Why should we have to invest time and resources in a smaller, unfunded community just to have fun on a game we don't like?

Why should we have to go searching for other people to play with in custom game lobbies that want to run and gun instead of run or gun?

Why should we have to test maps and gametypes to set up our own best of eleven series?

Why should we have to make our own fucking Halo game?

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52 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Why should we have to resort to Forge maps and new settings every time we have a Halo come out?

Why should we have to invest time and resources in a smaller, unfunded community just to have fun on a game we don't like?

Why should we have to go searching for other people to play with in custom game lobbies that want to run and gun instead of run or gun?

Why should we have to test maps and gametypes to set up our own best of eleven series?

Why should we have to make our own fucking Halo game?

Wow I feel like I've heard this somewhere.

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I do have the choice between sprint and Halo 3 BR.

Every time I play MCC. 

I always turn Halo 4 off selection. 

Also, this is a dreadful topic lol. The lesser of two evils.

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Hm... literal uncontrollable randomness on guns in a first-person shooter in which precision weapon jousts are the main appeal of the game... run button that makes you go slightly faster... hmmm...

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13 minutes ago, Mythik Nick said:

Hm... literal uncontrollable randomness on guns in a first-person shooter in which precision weapon jousts are the main appeal of the game... run button that makes you go slightly faster... hmmm...

Sprint doesn't do jack shit for combat either. This is all so pointless.

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17 minutes ago, Mythik Nick said:

Hm... literal uncontrollable randomness on guns in a first-person shooter in which precision weapon jousts are the main appeal of the game... run button that makes you go slightly faster... hmmm...

Sort of underselling sprint there.

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1 minute ago, HeX Reapers said:

Sort of underselling sprint there.

More so putting emphasis on how your gun should work and that (For them) takes precedence over movement preferences.

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