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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

Melee special effects I can get behind.  Knockback is obviously one.  What else could there be?  How about a weapon that can disable shield doors and hardlight shields by meleeing them?  How about a weapon that can incinerate shieldless enemies by meleeing them (more useful for campaign against flood)?  This could even be a common trait amount Promethean weapons, where each weapon’s melee has a unique effect.  Meleeing with the Plasma Launcher could stick the target with a plasma grenade.  Lots of room for innovation here.

I can see liked a charged PP shot disabling a shield door along with like a rail gun shot. Though I’ve never been in a situation where I liked having that shield door in the first place.

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2 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I can see liked a charged PP shot disabling a shield door along with like a rail gun shot. Though I’ve never been in a situation where I liked having that shield door in the first place.

The overcharged Plasma Pistol would make the most sense for taking out Shield related items but I was thinking some Promethean weapon would have a “Hardlight Pommel” or some such that gave its melee special properties.

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

Isn’t lunge kind of inevitable in an online game though?  Like even if there was no programmed in lunge on LAN, if you hit the melee button and by the time the action occurred on the target’s screen, he might see you lunging at him because his position is different from when you hit the melee button but the game already registered it as a hit.

no, they would just see the melee animation.  From the recipients pov being a couple frames of animation behind when the animation is seen isn't a huge deal.  Seeing a player fly 6 feet, disappear from your screen, then you die is worse.  I think lunge was introduced to take care of the messaging problem (and make it easier).  ie, not knowing exactly the range at which a melee would hit or miss.  Other games have melee without lunge and its fine.

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12 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

Other games have melee without lunge and its fine.

But why does Halo have to be like other games? Why can’t it go back to its roots?

:kappa:

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I would rather have melee lunge than invisible melee damage where the weapon doesn’t even touch the target.

How is this better?

 

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I don't think anyone wants that either. @Boyo

I'd be okay with a little bit of invisible melee range or a TINY lunge to connect

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23 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I like the idea of having every weapon have different melee characteristics, but certain traits can be shared. For range, just do 3 tiers based on the size of the weapon, long, medium and short. Then within each range, give certain weapons fewer wind-up frames. The weapons with more wind-up frames can do more damage. Maybe certain weapons do knockback. There’s a lot of room for interesting gameplay there.

Yes absolutely, I would almost certainly completely remove lunge, or if that felt too unnatural/clunky, keep it as minimal as possible. Another example of a mechanic you could add is melee-combos, these would work based on whether you connected with your melee on the enemy, so for example if you connect with your melee you would be rewarded with a faster melee animation on your next melee, effectively allowing you to chain together successful melees like the double melee in CE, but if you miss you are penalized with a slower melee recovery animation, I would also highly consider certain guns having their own unique variations in things like melee damage, speed, recovery, melee distance, etc. this way certain guns could have their own unique combos, besides why should everything be the same? The idea here is to offer something like H2 button combos but make is so that anyone can execute them in regular gameplay, they would be simple in functionality, just requiring movement and melee, but could add a potentially large amount of depth over the current system. The reason I don't like the idea of just having button combos is that they can be easily executed by way of cheats, especially so on PC, whereas melee combos would be built in at a mechanical level instead of having a dedicated button for them and would rely more so on the movement and timing (skill) of the player trying to execute them. As I mention before you could have unique variations with certain weapons, an example of this could be successfully melee an enemy with a BR in hand giving you either a small or significantly faster recovery time buff allowing you to shoot your next shot faster than if you missed the melee, this effectively builds BXR into the game at a mechanical level instead of through a glitch/button command that can be easily exploited.

There is so much untapped potential in the melee system and I just don't see why every weapon (expect sword and hammer) should have practically the same range, speed, lunge and damage when it comes to melees, and why not make something like the plasma pistol have a faster but weaker melee with a shorter range, and something like the rocket launcher have a longer ranged, slower but stronger melee hit? I want to see the melee system become something more than simply holding forwards and pressing melee at an undetermined range/time to (hopefully) lunge at the opposing player, effectively removing all sense of player control and depth from the engagement. How many times have you gotten into melee battles and tried to use some skillful movement to avoid the other persons melee only for them to be granted copious amounts of lunge, shutting down any chance at an interesting skill based melee engagement. Remove lunge so that people can actually dodge each others melees with skillful movement (couching, jumping, strafing, etc.) add interesting utility to how certain weapons function with melee, make it intuitive and simple to understand, i.e the plasma pistol vs rocket launcher example.

Just imagine how interesting the sword could be if it had no lunge but instead gave you increased movement speed when you wield it (I know this was in H5 but I'm modelling this around a no sprint Halo) make it so that it doesn't just kill in 1 hit, instead make it 1 hit to remove shields, 1 hit to finish unshielded players and 1 hit to the back ofc, but give it a fast melee speed with a good range (if not the most out of any other weapon) heck even give it some special capabilities when equip with an active camo if you want. Suddenly you have a weapon that actually has some depth and skill gap to it without barely changing how the weapon functions in the sense that it is still a sword and requires the exact same buttons to use as before, but now it allows for a wider range of possible uses as apposed to how the sword has been in the past, which has functioned incredibly bland to say the least, along with the melee system in general. These are simply just examples though, the point is that I want to see more depth in the Halo sandbox, not less, like we have been getting for years now, I want interesting dynamics instead of everything becoming stagnant, I want to see people master the mechanics and use them in their gameplay instead of just following the same old stale meta's. 

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I agree with 95% of that, but making subsequent melees faster upon a successful melee sounds problematic IMO as it encourages going for the double melee. It honestly gives me flashbacks of Halo Reach in that regard. 

 

The only melee combo I've always liked is BLB. Firstly because it's intuitive because you can literally see your spartan cancel the animation. 2) you can't do it indefinitely like BXB and BXR because you're wasting a nade every time and 3) if you fuck up in CQC you're most likely going to die as you'll probably get meleed back and then you have a fuse grenade at your feet. 

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Melees should be at least as hard as in Halo 1 because shooting is way more interesting and a better test of skill. It should be reserved for backsmacks primarily. Not having sprint would help this since players could backpeddle more effectively to counter someone charging. In no shooter have I ever thought, “I wish  more kills resulted from melee interactions.” Not even in Quake where I’ve used the Gauntlet in one out of every 30 games probably.

Melees in Halo are a prime example of the need to make the player “feel like a Spartan” when they aren’t skilled enough to land shots in close range. A single melee does the damage of 3-4 utility weapon bullets. The difficulty to payoff ratio is really out of whack. Want to give braindead, slow killing automatic weapons a purpose? Make melees way harder. Boom, risk vs reward.

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@Gobias

Melees have an extremely limited range compared to the utility weapon.  Of course they are going to do more damage.  That’s not about making players feel like a Spartan.  That’s just logical balance.

Melees are a fail safe against when players get too close.  How silly would it be to be chest bumping another player and have to keep shooting them to kill them?  It keeps kill times in check so that two players right next to each other aren’t doing the mambo for ten seconds.

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Get rid of guns replace with punches

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1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

Get rid of guns replace with punches

Why not have both?

2PCSFistGunTelescopicGunKidsToysClassicC

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4 hours ago, Gobias said:

Melees should be at least as hard as in Halo 1 because shooting is way more interesting and a better test of skill. It should be reserved for backsmacks primarily. Not having sprint would help this since players could backpeddle more effectively to counter someone charging. In no shooter have I ever thought, “I wish  more kills resulted from melee interactions.” Not even in Quake where I’ve used the Gauntlet in one out of every 30 games probably.

Melees in Halo are a prime example of the need to make the player “feel like a Spartan” when they aren’t skilled enough to land shots in close range. A single melee does the damage of 3-4 utility weapon bullets. The difficulty to payoff ratio is really out of whack. Want to give braindead, slow killing automatic weapons a purpose? Make melees way harder. Boom, risk vs reward.

You’re actually Wrong to think like this, since you had no business getting so close where shooting is obviously a no go. I’m not a fan of high melee damage(I say it should take half shields instead of the typical one shot metric it’s been since h3(reach MLG did this, although the reason was to negate sprint melee). A melee is about the range a shotgun should be effective. 

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5 hours ago, Gobias said:

Melees should be at least as hard as in Halo 1 because shooting is way more interesting and a better test of skill. It should be reserved for backsmacks primarily. Not having sprint would help this since players could backpeddle more effectively to counter someone charging. In no shooter have I ever thought, “I wish  more kills resulted from melee interactions.” Not even in Quake where I’ve used the Gauntlet in one out of every 30 games probably.

Melees in Halo are a prime example of the need to make the player “feel like a Spartan” when they aren’t skilled enough to land shots in close range. A single melee does the damage of 3-4 utility weapon bullets. The difficulty to payoff ratio is really out of whack. Want to give braindead, slow killing automatic weapons a purpose? Make melees way harder. Boom, risk vs reward.

Melees should do more damage than a single utility bullet tho otherwise they're pointless. I remember in the CE Anniversary playlist they set melee damage to like 50% (yay another 343 oversight that never got fixed!) and it took 4 melees to kill someone in a game with a 3sk starting weapon. It was a complete and utter waste of a button and a death sentence to get caught meleeing.

Not defending the shallow melee systems we've had in recent years but if you make it THAT weak you might as well remove it because it's pointless.

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14 hours ago, Basu said:

I agree with 95% of that, but making subsequent melees faster upon a successful melee sounds problematic IMO as it encourages going for the double melee. It honestly gives me flashbacks of Halo Reach in that regard. 

 

The only melee combo I've always liked is BLB. Firstly because it's intuitive because you can literally see your spartan cancel the animation. 2) you can't do it indefinitely like BXB and BXR because you're wasting a nade every time and 3) if you fuck up in CQC you're most likely going to die as you'll probably get meleed back and then you have a fuse grenade at your feet. 

I'm not sure if I put this in one of my posts and I haven't checked but I think I mentioned that you could penalize players for missing the melee, this would be the counter balance and dissuade people from just going for the double melee every time as it would leave you open to be easily countered, implemented in this way it would be more inline with certain button combos with a risk vs reward factor.

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4 hours ago, Arlong said:

You’re actually Wrong to think like this, since you had no business getting so close where shooting is obviously a no go. I’m not a fan of high melee damage(I say it should take half shields instead of the typical one shot metric it’s been since h3(reach MLG did this, although the reason was to negate sprint melee). A melee is about the range a shotgun should be effective. 

"you're actually wrong to think like this", "had no business being so close"... c'mon man that's bullshit. Sometimes close encounters just... happen.  Sometimes pushing forward with conscious intent to melee to finish the kill is the right thing to do.  Some things like shotguns can be best used by getting in close and meleeing immediately after firing.  In an ideal game where you can still crouch strafe like Halo 5 but without melee magnetism, you could actually turn around a fight by meleeing and making the other guy miss by crouching or moving well.

 

All of these things are good to allow actual variety in CQC and depth to the game. But for it to be worth anything it needs to do decent damage.  In my head i imagine a melee system like this:

 

  1. No/Bare minimum lunge
  2. No/bare minimum magnetism
  3. Hitboxes that work more like projectile weapons.  You have to be aiming for it to land.
  4. Some weapons have bigger hitboxes than others.  This could be based on melee animation itself so the player can "See" what should land.  Think CE AR vs CE pistol.
  5. Some weapons have different ranges.  Not everything is individually unique but fall into categories of Short, Medium, Long. Short would be pistol and carbine sized weapons, medium would be long rifle size and long would be sniper, rockets, etc.  Nothing crazy here. maybe a total difference from Short to Long of like 10-15% range.
  6. Momentum based damage*
    1. Standing melee - 3 hit kill
    2. Running melee - barely a 2 hit kill. One running then one standing would not be a kill but would be damn close.
    3. Falling/Jumping melee - easy 2 hit kill.
  7. Bleedthrough required

*The momentum based damage would still be pretty close but would make an effective difference.  To make the math easy lets say there is a total shield/health pool of 100.  Damage values would be like this:

  1. Standing  melee - 40 damage
  2. Running - 50 
  3. Falling/jumping - 60 

 

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5 hours ago, Apoll0 said:

"you're actually wrong to think like this", "had no business being so close"... c'mon man that's bullshit. Sometimes close encounters just... happen.  Sometimes pushing forward with conscious intent to melee to finish the kill is the right thing to do.  Some things like shotguns can be best used by getting in close and meleeing immediately after firing.  In an ideal game where you can still crouch strafe like Halo 5 but without melee magnetism, you could actually turn around a fight by meleeing and making the other guy miss by crouching or moving well.

 

All of these things are good to allow actual variety in CQC and depth to the game. But for it to be worth anything it needs to do decent damage.  In my head i imagine a melee system like this: 

 

  1. No/Bare minimum lunge
  2. No/bare minimum magnetism
  3. Hitboxes that work more like projectile weapons.  You have to be aiming for it to land.
  4. Some weapons have bigger hitboxes than others.  This could be based on melee animation itself so the player can "See" what should land.  Think CE AR vs CE pistol. 
  5. Some weapons have different ranges.  Not everything is individually unique but fall into categories of Short, Medium, Long. Short would be pistol and carbine sized weapons, medium would be long rifle size and long would be sniper, rockets, etc.  Nothing crazy here. maybe a total difference from Short to Long of like 10-15% range.
  6. Momentum based damage*
    1. Standing melee - 3 hit kill
    2. Running melee - barely a 2 hit kill. One running then one standing would not be a kill but would be damn close.
    3. Falling/Jumping melee - easy 2 hit kill.
  7. Bleedthrough required

*The momentum based damage would still be pretty close but would make an effective difference.  To make the math easy lets say there is a total shield/health pool of 100.  Damage values would be like this:

  1. Standing  melee - 40 damage
  2. Running - 50 
  3. Falling/jumping - 60 

 

Good post, one thing that has been suggested previously is to add another tier of momentum that allows 1 hk melees if a player is falling from a really high point of the map (one that would almost kill you in games that have fall damage). In a game with short melee range and no lunge/magnetism this could be a fun and skillful replacement for the cheesy ground pound.

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4 hours ago, Basu said:

Good post, one thing that has been suggested previously is to add another tier of momentum that allows 1 hk melees if a player is falling from a really high point of the map (one that would almost kill you in games that have fall damage). In a game with short melee range and no lunge/magnetism this could be a fun and skillful replacement for the cheesy ground pound.

I'm not opposed to that either. They could use some screen effects so you know when you have hit that point in the fall.  One thing i wouldn't do is make it a linear progression of steadily increasing melee damage the further you fall.  Not because that's wrong per se, but because i wouldn't want any ambiguity in how much damage my melee has done. I could be wrong on that though, seems like a thing that's harder to conceptualize accurately.  I guess you could do something like, any melee in the air is worth 60.  After X fall distance Y damage is added per meter until you get to 100, to reuse my damage numbers from before.

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37 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

I'm not opposed to that either. They could use some screen effects so you know when you have hit that point in the fall.  One thing i wouldn't do is make it a linear progression of steadily increasing melee damage the further you fall.  Not because that's wrong per se, but because i wouldn't want any ambiguity in how much damage my melee has done. I could be wrong on that though, seems like a thing that's harder to conceptualize accurately.  I guess you could do something like, any melee in the air is worth 60.  After X fall distance Y damage is added per meter until you get to 100, to reuse my damage numbers from before.

Yeah I would for sure have a certain height threshold and from that point on it's a set amount of extra damage.

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The Power Drain is Equipment that can be used offensively.  What other types of equipment could be used offensively?

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Reclassifying Support Weapons

Halo 3 featured the Missile Pod and the Flamethrower.  The Missile Pod can become a piece of Equipment and the Flamethrower can become a grenade type.

Rather than removing the user’s ability to fire his primary weapon, the shoulder mounted Missile Pod would be independently fired with the Equipment button.

When the Flamethrower grenade type is equipped, pressing the Throw Grenade button would, after a brief delay, release a short range, short duration blast of damaging flames.  Shieldless players are ignited and killed with damage over time.  Certain objects can be burned down to modify the map.

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On 7/23/2019 at 7:14 PM, Mow said:

Yes absolutely, I would almost certainly completely remove lunge, or if that felt too unnatural/clunky, keep it as minimal as possible. Another example of a mechanic you could add is melee-combos, these would work based on whether you connected with your melee on the enemy, so for example if you connect with your melee you would be rewarded with a faster melee animation on your next melee, effectively allowing you to chain together successful melees like the double melee in CE, but if you miss you are penalized with a slower melee recovery animation, I would also highly consider certain guns having their own unique variations in things like melee damage, speed, recovery, melee distance, etc. this way certain guns could have their own unique combos, besides why should everything be the same? The idea here is to offer something like H2 button combos but make is so that anyone can execute them in regular gameplay, they would be simple in functionality, just requiring movement and melee, but could add a potentially large amount of depth over the current system. The reason I don't like the idea of just having button combos is that they can be easily executed by way of cheats, especially so on PC, whereas melee combos would be built in at a mechanical level instead of having a dedicated button for them and would rely more so on the movement and timing (skill) of the player trying to execute them. As I mention before you could have unique variations with certain weapons, an example of this could be successfully melee an enemy with a BR in hand giving you either a small or significantly faster recovery time buff allowing you to shoot your next shot faster than if you missed the melee, this effectively builds BXR into the game at a mechanical level instead of through a glitch/button command that can be easily exploited.

There is so much untapped potential in the melee system and I just don't see why every weapon (expect sword and hammer) should have practically the same range, speed, lunge and damage when it comes to melees, and why not make something like the plasma pistol have a faster but weaker melee with a shorter range, and something like the rocket launcher have a longer ranged, slower but stronger melee hit? I want to see the melee system become something more than simply holding forwards and pressing melee at an undetermined range/time to (hopefully) lunge at the opposing player, effectively removing all sense of player control and depth from the engagement. How many times have you gotten into melee battles and tried to use some skillful movement to avoid the other persons melee only for them to be granted copious amounts of lunge, shutting down any chance at an interesting skill based melee engagement. Remove lunge so that people can actually dodge each others melees with skillful movement (couching, jumping, strafing, etc.) add interesting utility to how certain weapons function with melee, make it intuitive and simple to understand, i.e the plasma pistol vs rocket launcher example.

Just imagine how interesting the sword could be if it had no lunge but instead gave you increased movement speed when you wield it (I know this was in H5 but I'm modelling this around a no sprint Halo) make it so that it doesn't just kill in 1 hit, instead make it 1 hit to remove shields, 1 hit to finish unshielded players and 1 hit to the back ofc, but give it a fast melee speed with a good range (if not the most out of any other weapon) heck even give it some special capabilities when equip with an active camo if you want. Suddenly you have a weapon that actually has some depth and skill gap to it without barely changing how the weapon functions in the sense that it is still a sword and requires the exact same buttons to use as before, but now it allows for a wider range of possible uses as apposed to how the sword has been in the past, which has functioned incredibly bland to say the least, along with the melee system in general. These are simply just examples though, the point is that I want to see more depth in the Halo sandbox, not less, like we have been getting for years now, I want interesting dynamics instead of everything becoming stagnant, I want to see people master the mechanics and use them in their gameplay instead of just following the same old stale meta's. 

Because deep down no one cares for some unique melee system in a shooter, or the fact no game Dev would want to waste time on that, in an FPS game I’m so sure. Like sure these ideas are cool but I’m going to look back at how it used to be and one melee takes shields or kills. It’s a melee system that’s frustrating, fun , and yet so simple. It’s not something I’m sure most care about. This is a shooter, you’re wanting to introduce this unique melee system when it’s something no one is asking for or even cares for. Sure the meta may be stale but I don’t want to need to master some dumbass melee mechanic in an FPS game. The sword has a lunge for the sake of not being useless because believe me it be downright useless if it was made in your image. 

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On 7/25/2019 at 11:54 AM, Boyo said:

Reclassifying Support Weapons

Halo 3 featured the Missile Pod and the Flamethrower.  The Missile Pod can become a piece of Equipment and the Flamethrower can become a grenade type.

Rather than removing the user’s ability to fire his primary weapon, the shoulder mounted Missile Pod would be independently fired with the Equipment button.

When the Flamethrower grenade type is equipped, pressing the Throw Grenade button would, after a brief delay, release a short range, short duration blast of damaging flames.  Shieldless players are ignited and killed with damage over time.  Certain objects can be burned down to modify the map.

Did fire grenades even get used in Halo 3 MP? 

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3 hours ago, Nokt said:

Did fire grenades even get used in Halo 3 MP? 

Yeah sometimes. They weren’t used often though, mostly because no map(dev) had them. You mostly saw them only in campaign actually. 

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5 hours ago, Nokt said:

Did fire grenades even get used in Halo 3 MP? 

Not in MM because they tanked the framerate

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