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Battle Rifle 

The Battle Rifle is the default starting weapon in classic gametypes.  This hitscan weapon has a 36 round magazine and a 2x scope.  It fires in three round bursts, killing in 12 bullets with a headshot (1.4 seconds) or 18 bullets with bodyshots (2.3 seconds).  Various button combos can be performed.

DMR

The DMR is the default starting weapon in SWAT gametypes.  This semi automatic, hitscan weapon kills in 5 shots (1.3 seconds) with a headshot or in 7 bodyshots (2.0 seconds).  It has a 15 round magazine, 3x scope, reticle bloom and deals increased damage to vehicles.

Needle Rifle 

The Needle Rifle is an automatic weapon with a 36 round magazine and a 3x scope.  It fires projectiles that kill in 9 shots (1.4 seconds) with a headshot or 12 bodyshots (1.9 seconds) with a supercombine.  Supercombine explosions have a very large blast radius and can occur on players or vehicles.  Certain sections of vehicles can deflect needles, like the curved front end of a Ghost or Wraith.

Tidal Rifle 

The Tidal Rifle is a battery operated, semi automatic weapon that can aim down sights to the equivalent of a 2x scope.  Primary fire kills in 6 hitscan shots (1.2 seconds) with a bleedthrough headshot or 9 bodyshots (1.9 seconds).

Alternate fire launches a large, slow moving projectile (0.96 second fire delay) that temporarily reduces the damage resistance of an impacted player by 50%.  One alt fire projectile followed by three primary fire shots (0.7 seconds) is lethal when the final shot is a headshot.

Impacting a mid air, alt fire projectile with the weapon’s primary fire releases an explosion that does no damage but temporarily reduces all impacted players damage resistance by 99%.  A Tidal Combo followed by one primary fire shot is lethal (0.5 seconds).

Players with modified damage resistance have a purple shield bar on their HUD and a purple aura on their player model.

Scepter 

The Scepter is a battery operated weapon.  The Scope button toggles the user’s view between his head and a miniature ball turret that appears as a glowing orange orb on the end of the weapon’s long silver barrel.  The orb’s view can be rotated 360 degrees without changing the orientation of the user’s player model.  While scoped in, the weapon fires in the direction of the orb’s view.  

The Reload button detaches the orb from the weapon, causing it to remain at its current location with an enlarged model and limited health.  Scope toggles between player view and orb view, allowing the user to remotely fire the orb from a separate location.  Pressing Reload again recalls the orb, causing it to travel directly to the user, even through walls, damaging any players or vehicles struck by it.

 

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

Oddball and those forge maps were added a few months before H5 was dropped and you criticise H3 for updating its settings that late into the game? lol. H5 had the exact same rotation for at least two years and while the settings went from utter shit to okay in that timeframe, it was always the same old gametypes getting played. Gotta admit though the final lineup is pretty good, I just wish they got off their asses sooner especially after the first few DLC maps turned out to be completely useless they should've started adding forge maps asap.

I wasn't criticizing, I was just saying Halo 3 lacked a lot for half a year, to a year and a half depending on the map pack. Whereas Halo 5 had most of its launch lineup through to its competitive end. Meaning Halo 3 once had even less variety, whereas Halo 5 would be taken down to Halo 3's current level, assuming you take out what was added in later. Because it already had a stable core lineup of gametypes and maps at a numerous level off the rip. Hence why I also specifically counted what we ended up with, while making the footnote some of it had to be added in, when it's already on par with or outnumbered by Halo 5. To counter the point that Halo 5 didn't/doesn't have map/gametype variety while Halo 3 did, when the latter had to add a lot of it in as DLC came out.

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2 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I wasn't criticizing, I was just saying Halo 3 lacked a lot for half a year, to a year and a half depending on the map pack. Whereas Halo 5 had most of its launch lineup through to its competitive end. Meaning Halo 3 once had even less variety, whereas Halo 5 would be taken down to Halo 3's current level, assuming you take out what was added in later. Because it already had a stable core lineup of gametypes and maps at a numerous level off the rip. Hence why I also specifically counted what we ended up with, while making the footnote some of it had to be added in, when it's already on par with or outnumbered by Halo 5. To counter the point that Halo 5 didn't/doesn't have map/gametype variety while Halo 3 did, when the latter had to add a lot of it in as DLC came out.

H3 also is the third installment in the series. It released with more content and modes than its predecessor halo 2. H5 released with less content than its predecessors. H5 did not meet the expected content which is 100% on 343(they had 3 years) reach set a standard for customization and content and 343 failed to meet this with h4&5. This is what happens when you take over a franchise and think you releasing with content equal to that of h2 is acceptable. 

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8 minutes ago, Arlong said:

H3 also is the third installment in the series. It released with more content and modes than its predecessor halo 2. H5 released with less content than its predecessors. H5 did not meet the expected content which is 100% on 343(they had 3 years) reach set a standard for customization and content and 343 failed to meet this with h4&5. This is what happens when you take over a franchise and think you releasing with content equal to that of h2 is acceptable. 

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying.

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7 hours ago, Apoll0 said:

I would place it 3rd.

  1. CE Magnum
  2. H2 BR
  3. H5 Pistol

I know the H2 BR is a controversial pick for number 2, but the button glitches help it out.  And yeah i know the button glitches worked with any weapon, but they were most effective with the BR.  That BR had magnetism too, but other than the CE pistol it really wasn't worse than other Halo games. And if you were off the head above or to the side, it would often not give you the headshot.  The H5 pistol however.... if any part of the reticle is grazing the head you're getting a headshot.

Hmmm? 

To be fair it's obvious that when determining what utility weapon is 'best' for competitive play there are a lot factors, one of which is personal preference, and to be honest if I was truly going to try and make the weapon sandbox better (in which making a proper utility weapon is only step 1) I would consider things such as headshot multipliers on shielded players and/or loadouts. I know a lot of people's first reaction when they hear the word 'loadouts' is not a positive one but I don't think the conversation on this topic is over just because it has been implemented poorly in the past. if CS:GO can handle an economy system in the game and still be known as one of if not the most competitive shooter on the market I struggle to see why Halo couldn't handle a simple load-out system, even if it was just for more casual playlists/gamemodes, at least that way we can avoid some of the convoluted/redundant weapon design of Halo 5 while still giving people the ability to use their preferred weapon without slapping them all over the map and causing massive imbalances.

Also as a side note the attempt to have parity between competitive and casual players has been one of the things that has damaged Halo the most imo, hence why I don't think we should force casual players not to have loadouts just because they may or may not work in a competitive environment, we sure as hell don't like when our experience is watered down to cater to a casual audience so I'm not sure why we should expect them to feel any differently when the tables are turned.

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The problem with loadouts in Halo is that you need to design a bunch of weapons to be equal so that there is not one dominant loadout.  The other option is rocks, paper, scissors where one weapon excels at close range, one at medium, and one at long (or some other factor besides range).  Neither of these weapon design ideologies is really compatible with the pick up nature of Halo where every weapon should be unique and powerful in its own way.

A system where more powerful loadouts are unlocked somehow could work with Halo’s weapon design because unlocking a more powerful loadout or picking up a more powerful weapon are similar enough.

If you truly do want a load out system, make it class based, where as many different aspects of players are different.  Even without changing base traits, different starting weapons, grenades, armor abilities, and equipment could be enough to differentiate classes.  The Scout’s armor abilities and equipment are movement focused.  The soldier’s are combat focused.  Something along those lines could be fun but would also require a large and diverse sandbox to pull off, which many here seem to adamantly oppose.

@Mow

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54 minutes ago, Boyo said:

The problem with loadouts in Halo is that you need to design a bunch of weapons to be equal so that there is not one dominant loadout.  The other option is rocks, paper, scissors where one weapon excels at close range, one at medium, and one at long (or some other factor besides range).  Neither of these weapon design ideologies is really compatible with the pick up nature of Halo where every weapon should be unique and powerful in its own way.

A system where more powerful loadouts are unlocked somehow could work with Halo’s weapon design because unlocking a more powerful loadout or picking up a more powerful weapon are similar enough.

If you truly do want a load out system, make it class based, where as many different aspects of players are different.  Even without changing base traits, different starting weapons, grenades, armor abilities, and equipment could be enough to differentiate classes.  The Scout’s armor abilities and equipment are movement focused.  The soldier’s are combat focused.  Something along those lines could be fun but would also require a large and diverse sandbox to pull off, which many here seem to adamantly oppose.

@Mow

I don't even necessarily want loadouts, I'm more so trying to point out how there are many factors that have to be taken into account when balancing the Halo sandbox, many of which are ignored without good reason. Loadouts are by no means the only thing I would consider when trying to make the sandbox better and really there's an infinite amount of interpretation of what 'better' would mean so maybe the best way to look at it is through the lens that has always worked best for Halo, complexity vs depth. Ideally we want the mechanics of Halo to be something that isn't overly complex to learn how to use, but has such depth that it takes a effort to become a master of them.

This is a balance I believe H5 got wrong as for all the complexity the game had in its player mechanics it really didn't provide a satisfactory amount of depth in how the game played at high level (or even in casual modes for that matter considering things like map design and vehicle balance were completely broken by enhanced mobility too) I'd argue that Halo 5 pretty much started to break down at high level as the meta reached a stage where the optimal strategy was to use the mechanics to be as aggressive as possible and shut the enemy team down before they have a chance at employing any kind of strategy, this became boring to watch and is kind of the opposite gameplay that Halo is known for. Obviously there a many reasons for H5 playing like this, map design, weapon balance, movement abilities/escapability etc. but the core point still stays the same, Halo 5 got too complex without satisfying the depth of the engagements between the players, weapons, vehicles, environment, AI, etc. that fans of the series had come to love, instead 343 chose to put all their eggs in one basket (enhanced mobility) and ultimately completely missed the mark on what makes a Halo game.

In closing the main point is that when I say "what is best?" I mean "Which mechanics best satisfy the balance of the 'complexity vs depth' design that has always been integral to Halo's identity?"

 

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Highest depth to complexity sandbox would consist of:

Magnum, Sword, Sniper, Rockets, OS, Camo, Frags

Utility, CQC, Ranged, AoE, Vitality, Visibility, Indirect fire

 

Highest depth to complexity movement is:

Run, Jump, Crouch

Lateral, Up, Down

 

Highest depth to complexity gametype selection is:

CTF, Assault, Hill, Oddball, Slayer 

Take, Deliver, Stay, Hold, Kill

@Mow

 

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As far as the fun factor goes nothing matches landing a perfect TSK with the CE magnum followed by flipping the magnum around in your hand. 

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10 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

As far as the fun factor goes nothing matches landing a perfect TSK with the CE magnum followed by flipping the magnum around in your hand. 

I will agree, however I will say it is equally satisfying watching a spartan backflip from a snipe in Halo 3 and that crisp medal coming up. 10/10.

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7 hours ago, Boyo said:

Battle Rifle 

The Battle Rifle is the default starting weapon in classic gametypes.  This hitscan weapon has a 36 round magazine and a 2x scope.  It fires in three round bursts, killing in 12 bullets with a headshot (1.4 seconds) or 18 bullets with bodyshots (2.3 seconds).  Various button combos can be performed.

DMR

The DMR is the default starting weapon in SWAT gametypes.  This semi automatic, hitscan weapon kills in 5 shots (1.3 seconds) with a headshot or in 7 bodyshots (2.0 seconds).  It has a 15 round magazine, 3x scope, reticle bloom and deals increased damage to vehicles.

Needle Rifle 

The Needle Rifle is an automatic weapon with a 36 round magazine and a 3x scope.  It fires projectiles that kill in 9 shots (1.4 seconds) with a headshot or 12 bodyshots (1.9 seconds) with a supercombine.  Supercombine explosions have a very large blast radius and can occur on players or vehicles.  Certain sections of vehicles can deflect needles, like the curved front end of a Ghost or Wraith.

Tidal Rifle 

The Tidal Rifle is a battery operated, semi automatic weapon that can aim down sights to the equivalent of a 2x scope.  Primary fire kills in 6 hitscan shots (1.2 seconds) with a bleedthrough headshot or 9 bodyshots (1.9 seconds).

Alternate fire launches a large, slow moving projectile (0.96 second fire delay) that temporarily reduces the damage resistance of an impacted player by 50%.  One alt fire projectile followed by three primary fire shots (0.7 seconds) is lethal when the final shot is a headshot.

Impacting a mid air, alt fire projectile with the weapon’s primary fire releases an explosion that does no damage but temporarily reduces all impacted players damage resistance by 99%.  A Tidal Combo followed by one primary fire shot is lethal (0.5 seconds).

Players with modified damage resistance have a purple shield bar on their HUD and a purple aura on their player model.

Scepter 

The Scepter is a battery operated weapon.  The Scope button toggles the user’s view between his head and a miniature ball turret that appears as a glowing orange orb on the end of the weapon’s long silver barrel.  The orb’s view can be rotated 360 degrees without changing the orientation of the user’s player model.  While scoped in, the weapon fires in the direction of the orb’s view.  

The Reload button detaches the orb from the weapon, causing it to remain at its current location with an enlarged model and limited health.  Scope toggles between player view and orb view, allowing the user to remotely fire the orb from a separate location.  Pressing Reload again recalls the orb, causing it to travel directly to the user, even through walls, damaging any players or vehicles struck by it.

 

pls no hitscan br. also i love double shotting and quad shots but do you think its possible they could introduce a mechanic like this in this day and age without their being rampart cheating with macros or modded controllers? 

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13 minutes ago, boogerman said:

pls no hitscan br. also i love double shotting and quad shots but do you think its possible they could introduce a mechanic like this in this day and age without their being rampart cheating with macros or modded controllers? 

The Magnum is the utility weapon and that is projectile.  The BR being a 12 bullet kill, meaning 4 full bursts, is one reason I chose hitscan.  Without ridiculous levels of aim assist and a crisp strafe, I think a hitscan BR could still be sufficiently difficult to achieve the minimum kill time on.  That is one decision I am still on the fence about though.  

Modded controllers are a serious monetary investment just to nerd out in one game.  Plus, you would probably get reported every game if all you did was double shot back to back to back.  On PC, yes button combos would be a problem.

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7 minutes ago, boogerman said:

pls no hitscan br. also i love double shotting and quad shots but do you think its possible they could introduce a mechanic like this in this day and age without their being rampart cheating with macros or modded controllers? 

I asked Max Hoberman about button combos and if they were ever something that crossed the table that he knew about. He was at Certain Affinity at this point so it seemed unlikely, but he told me it wasn't ever something that was considered for future titles that he knew. 

I asked Josh Holmes about adding something similar to the gears reloading mechanic. He said it was an interesting idea, but again not really something they were interested in at the time. 

I guess there is always a possibility, but it seems very unlikely. 

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The Quad Shot was actually very elegantly designed for being a mistake.  Like, I couldn’t really think of how it could be better.  Maybe a smaller frame window?  Isn’t it 3 frames you have to hit the reload button?  

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the quad shot is hard enough to pull off, it just needs to be on a br with less magnetism and aim assist. would of been so sick in halo 3

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8 hours ago, Boyo said:

Highest depth to complexity sandbox would consist of:

Magnum, Sword, Sniper, Rockets, OS, Camo, Frags

Utility, CQC, Ranged, AoE, Vitality, Visibility, Indirect fire

 

Highest depth to complexity movement is:

Run, Jump, Crouch

Lateral, Up, Down

 

Highest depth to complexity gametype selection is:

CTF, Assault, Hill, Oddball, Slayer 

Take, Deliver, Stay, Hold, Kill

@Mow

 

I'm not sure what this post really means, it seems like you are just reducing everything to it's simplest form which is not at all what I'm advocating for, feel free to correct me though.

It's important to note that despite H5's complexity issues complexity is not inherently a bad thing, something can be both complex from one perspective whilst simple from another, for example the aiming system. The aiming system mechanically (aim assists, bullet mag, sticky reticle, etc.) could be considered something that is complex, at least to your average player when it was first introduced in CE, but is something that should be simple and intuitive in its functionality, i.e. in how the player interacts with the mechanic through their input on the controls. Ironically this is something that 343 completely fucked up on in H5, probably because the added complexity of enhanced mobility scewed the balance of the aiming mechanics resulting in something that could be described as... squirrelly... heh

An example of a mechanic I would be in favor of make more complex is the melee system, it's no secret that the melee system has been clinically brain dead ever since Halo 3 and so it's a mechanic that I have taken some interest in when it comes to what could be done to make it 'better', and honestly there's a lot of things you could do to change the melee system but the number one priority should be that it remains simple in functionality to stay in line with how players actually interact with mechanics in Halo games. We have an example of a melee mechanic in CE & H2 with the momentum system but I'd argue that this mechanic is unintuitive in its function, not to mention it doesn't particularly add a whole lot of depth either. I'd be more in favor of something that I believe is only in CE, different melee ranges with different weapons, intuitively it makes sense that something like a sniper rifle or rocket launcher would have a longer melee range than a pistol, but you could also extend this mechanic so that the pistol would have a faster melee, I believe there is plenty of room for innovation on the melee system and you could even just add something as simple as missing a melee giving you a longer recovery animation in comparison to a successful melee hit although if I was really going to change the melee system I would probably start from scratch instead of trying to fix something that has been watered down more and more over the years.

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57 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

I will agree, however I will say it is equally satisfying watching a spartan backflip from a snipe in Halo 3 and that crisp medal coming up. 10/10.

Oh yeah for sure. I was just talking in reference to the utility weapons.

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BXR, BXB, and BLB are all ways to make the melee system more interesting.  I prefer BXR and BXB over BLB because it keeps the cancel button consistent between all combos, you don’t need a grenade to perform it, and I don’t see how throwing a nade between melees improves gameplay.

And I agree about giving different weapons different melee characteristics but I think it should be limited to a very few weapons.  Like, the Mauler and the Spiker have an extended melee range, all other weapon’s melees function identically.  Forcing players to learn each weapon’s unique melee characteristics is too much complexity for not enough depth.

With regard to depth to complexity, the simplest functional gameplay usually has the highest ratio.  Additions can add depth but not at a rate that outpaces their complexity, usually.  That’s not to say that’s how I think Halo should be.  I think Halo is simple enough that it can handle a lot more complexity without making it anywhere near too complex to play or enjoy.

@Mow

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I like the idea of having every weapon have different melee characteristics, but certain traits can be shared. For range, just do 3 tiers based on the size of the weapon, long, medium and short. Then within each range, give certain weapons fewer wind-up frames. The weapons with more wind-up frames can do more damage. Maybe certain weapons do knockback. There’s a lot of room for interesting gameplay there.

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I never hated Loadouts in reach since they weren’t custom, and the only difference was you had a different armor ability, but other than that it was an equal playing field with weapons on the map. I feel removing load outs as a whole is fools move on 343 because loadouts made for some interesting custom game modes, they should of done what they did with h2a and make loadouts customs only. Loadouts also are what make invasion unique the ability to spawn with different weapons is truly exciting and fun. Loadouts became cod like in h4 because of all the perk shit and what not. I’d even debate that reaches way of Loadouts is basically the proper execution in halos regard. Loadouts should be restricted to specific playlist and custom games. 

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12 hours ago, Hard Way said:

give certain weapons fewer wind-up frames

I disagree with this.  If two players hit melee at the same time, one shouldn’t win or lose simply because of the weapon he has equipped.

12 hours ago, Hard Way said:

Maybe certain weapons do knockback

Melee special effects I can get behind.  Knockback is obviously one.  What else could there be?  How about a weapon that can disable shield doors and hardlight shields by meleeing them?  How about a weapon that can incinerate shieldless enemies by meleeing them (more useful for campaign against flood)?  This could even be a common trait amount Promethean weapons, where each weapon’s melee has a unique effect.  Meleeing with the Plasma Launcher could stick the target with a plasma grenade.  Lots of room for innovation here.

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Some of y’all are really dwelling on what melee should become. Just do what h1 did and have no lunge. No need to make some Bizarre melee system where one gun melees faster, gives a bigger knock back. Most people hate melee in FPS games anyway. Just make it so you must always be looking at your opponent to get a lunge, the problem with the melee is you don’t even need to be looking at them to get it half the time.

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16 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Lunge can and should die in a fire.

Isn’t lunge kind of inevitable in an online game though?  Like even if there was no programmed in lunge on LAN, if you hit the melee button and by the time the action occurred on the target’s screen, he might see you lunging at him because his position is different from when you hit the melee button but the game already registered it as a hit.

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