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I guess Octagon should be the default Halo competitive experience then.

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Do you have any plans to add new picks up or mechanics once power weapons are removed?  Like, what would your ideal match look like?

 

Speaking of less powerful pick ups, if you could design a power up for a 1v1 match, what would it do?

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

How do you figure? Or, rather, what depth is being added by a static power weapon? The two key things of it, static location and a static timer make it so you're reliant on moving to specific parts of the map, at specific times to get specific things. And everyone else is too. That isn't really depth. That's being forced to do something, or be at a disadvantage. You are being essentially strongarmed into doing it or being punished, which is ironically enough, repetition. Following the same pattern. I can't count the amount of times I've moved on Pit off spawn and hurled a nade off a wall to the red/blue side of the map to damage people because they hold the literal same angle every time. Basically a habit. So is immediately jumping to camo on Truth/Rig, etc. And it's not depth that this occurs every so often. It's artificial difference because the actual strategy to get things isn't that radically huge, and you're essentially operating on a predetermined path. The meta to getting things isn't exactly changing, lol.

When you remove the power weapons/ups, you see players are able to move more freely off spawn, and in general, because they're not bound to having to hold specific angles for a two minute timer. They're simply moving around/to and holding the map's key points. You could see it with launch Haven to Turbo Haven in Halo 4, and especially on Truth from launch to HCS once the sword and fuel rod got removed.

I guess, further, as an esports viewer too who questions this, how do power weapons make streams more engaging? What I like seeing is pros getting into good gunfights and having a good reversal, or showing map knowledge to juke someone mid gunfight. The last thing I wanna see is someone just mopping the floor with someone when they have rockets. As I've said, this boils down to preference, obviously. You're not wrong for liking it, but I'm just eternally curious as to what makes it engaging at all. To me it's more frustrating.

The start of every game is almost always going to result in familiar movements with or without power weapons. There are still power positions/map control and objective. You wouldn't run shotgun room on lockout or bottom mid on midship just because power weapons don't exist on the map. You might have a little more leverage on direction to move, but I would say its not a lot out of the norm.

I would think that most of the depth, if you can even call it that, is just the situational decisions you have to make concerning them once the game has started. They aren't all on the same respawn, they aren't all worth making everyone push for them. Thats just my guess anyways, maybe someone has a better argument.

Think about like construct king, your down two people and they are pushing snipe. Is it worth dropping down to contest it or eat up hill time. You also run the risk of getting an even worse spawn if you push and die vs having your team spawn up top and hold control. Maybe Beaver/Battle Creek flag, rockets are coming up and nobody really has map control. Do you slay, do you bait, do you have someone try and pull a sneaky cap? A lot of the time decisions aren't just as easy as push power weapons.

 

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

Do you have any plans to add new picks up or mechanics once power weapons are removed?  Like, what would your ideal match look like?

 

Speaking of less powerful pick ups, if you could design a power up for a 1v1 match, what would it do?

People on both sides of change vs tradition never seem to see how even changes to the most basic aspects of a game can have radical effects, without the need to introduce or remove blatant abilities.

For example if weapons didn't spawn with or weren't capable of carrying 9001 ammo and you had to actually manage it then ammo pickups (whether in the form of duplicate guns or boxes) alone would encourage movement.  Asymms with spots that intelligently counter each other vs quadrant symms where any spot is essentially the same as any other go a long way for promoting movement as well.  Both things the traditional AFPS has always done better, without the need for overreliance on easy one shot kill pickups.

Like when I'm playing Quake ammo is actually a concern and I'm constantly going out of my way to get more in addition to everything else...in Halo it's like here let's spawn you with enough bullets to literally kill 40 people.  My ammo won't run dry until the game itself  ends, and if they whittle at my health it recharges anyways, so what incentive do I have to actually leave my tower without power weapons?

Just food for thought.

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When it comes to no power weapons, they seriously only work on few maps. Let’s look at lockout for a second. That maps ended so many times without either team getting the 50 kill limit. Why? Because there’s no incentive to push. So now we come to lockout ball. It’s safe to say in all honesty slayer doesn’t work in halo. Someone here will straight call a map like Pit or Narrows bad map design BECAUSE they’re always comparing it to how slayer plays. It’s actually hilarious because not even call of duty uses slayer aka TDM in their competitive mode and there’s a reason for that. Maps like lockout are a confusing one in all honesty because there’s no spots we could add power ups without being OP dominant aka one team can obtain it far easier because of their spawn. 

Slayer is a mode that’s honestly been needing to disappear from the competitive play. When in a social game people will try less, make dumb plays. But in competitive play people will camp more, push less. We all remember the TS playlist in h3, once your team got a decent amount of kills it was camp central.

edit:lockout has power weapons but their effectiveness hardly makes anyone push. People would only make some play near that 2:00 mark. 

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8 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Uuuuuuh, what. I just said I was aware dying by rockets was dumb to me well beforehand, if you're referring to 5, here. It was only recently that I figured out how to properly articulate it. My mindset shift was more so going from "balance to removal". Not from "good to bad". To me it was always dumb.

How do you figure? Or, rather, what depth is being added by a static power weapon? The two key things of it, static location and a static timer make it so you're reliant on moving to specific parts of the map, at specific times to get specific things. And everyone else is too. That isn't really depth. That's being forced to do something, or be at a disadvantage. You are being essentially strongarmed into doing it or being punished, which is ironically enough, repetition. Following the same pattern. I can't count the amount of times I've moved on Pit off spawn and hurled a nade off a wall to the red/blue side of the map to damage people because they hold the literal same angle every time. Basically a habit. So is immediately jumping to camo on Truth/Rig, etc. And it's not depth that this occurs every so often. It's artificial difference because the actual strategy to get things isn't that radically huge, and you're essentially operating on a predetermined path. The meta to getting things isn't exactly changing, lol.

When you remove the power weapons/ups, you see players are able to move more freely off spawn, and in general, because they're not bound to having to hold specific angles for a two minute timer. They're simply moving around/to and holding the map's key points. You could see it with launch Haven to Turbo Haven in Halo 4, and especially on Truth from launch to HCS once the sword and fuel rod got removed.

I guess, further, as an esports viewer too who questions this, how do power weapons make streams more engaging? What I like seeing is pros getting into good gunfights and having a good reversal, or showing map knowledge to juke someone mid gunfight. The last thing I wanna see is someone just mopping the floor with someone when they have rockets. As I've said, this boils down to preference, obviously. You're not wrong for liking it, but I'm just eternally curious as to what makes it engaging at all. To me it's more frustrating.

The strategy from the strart comes from what power weapons youre gonna push. Look at Pit. There is a neutral spawn for rockets and OS. At the start of the game will you send 3 players to secure rockets and 1 to the other or will you split and hope to fight to get both. I'd argue strategy will become completely linear and almost like a flowchart if the game was just starting weapons. There would theoretically be one optimal way to set up map control, one optimal way to react to each spawn of the enemies, and one optimal way to push for objectives. Every team would try to play the most optimal way, and will lead to every game people will go for the same start because if they win they will have the optimal map control setup. In the Overwatch league for the past few months one team comp has ruled the game called GOATS. it essentially boiled down to a mirror match at the top level of play. whoever won each game was determined by who could play the mirror match better. It became stale and repetitive because it really was the same strats and teamfights every time. Recently a lower-tiered team found success against a top 2 team when they ran a different lineup and it opened up the doors for many teams to experiment with different lineups. Now top teams have to be good enough to know how to play around multiple matchups and multiple situations. Without power weapons, there would be one perfect way to play the game and teams would chase that with no counter strategies. Of course, there still is a perfect way to play the game without them, but there are more variables to consider that it makes the perfect optimal play hard to achieve, and leaves it up to a team's judgement. A good Halo player has to have good decision making. This means knowing where to be, when to be there, and what to do, and then they still need mechanical skills to back it up. With power weapons added, a player must consider, where is the power weapon spawn?, when is the power weapon spawn?, does the enemy team have a power weapon?, how much ammo do they have left?, do we have a power weapon?, how much ammo does ours have left?. All these questions make knowing where to be, when to be there, and what to do a much harder judgement to make because there are plenty of different situations to consider, not just one.

3 hours ago, Arlong said:

When it comes to no power weapons, they seriously only work on few maps. Let’s look at lockout for a second. That maps ended so many times without either team getting the 50 kill limit. Why? Because there’s no incentive to push. So now we come to lockout ball. It’s safe to say in all honesty slayer doesn’t work in halo. Someone here will straight call a map like Pit or Narrows bad map design BECAUSE they’re always comparing it to how slayer plays. It’s actually hilarious because not even call of duty uses slayer aka TDM in their competitive mode and there’s a reason for that. Maps like lockout are a confusing one in all honesty because there’s no spots we could add power ups without being OP dominant aka one team can obtain it far easier because of their spawn. 

Slayer is a mode that’s honestly been needing to disappear from the competitive play. When in a social game people will try less, make dumb plays. But in competitive play people will camp more, push less. We all remember the TS playlist in h3, once your team got a decent amount of kills it was camp central.

edit:lockout has power weapons but their effectiveness hardly makes anyone push. People would only make some play near that 2:00 mark. 

Lockout just has shitty placement for their power weapons, and a map design that rewards camping. Also, it has been known since halo 3 that slayer is the worst competitive game type and CTF is the best.

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A power up that gives unlimited ammo to the weapon the player currently has equipped could be interesting.  The weapon never overheats and never needs to be reloaded, as long as the power up is active.

The effectiveness of a Bottomless Clip power up would scale based on what weapon the player had equipped.  Grabbing it with the utility weapon doesn’t net much gain.  Grabbing it with the Rocket Launcher brings about Armageddon.  

What do you think?

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6 minutes ago, Boyo said:

A power up that gives unlimited ammo to the weapon the player currently has equipped could be interesting.  The weapon never overheats and never needs to be reloaded, as long as the power up is active.

The effectiveness of a Bottomless Clip power up would scale based on what weapon the player had equipped.  Grabbing it with the utility weapon doesn’t net much gain.  Grabbing it with the Rocket Launcher brings about Armageddon.  

What do you think?

Scrap the infinite ammo and then maybe

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24 minutes ago, andregr said:

The strategy from the strart comes from what power weapons youre gonna push. Look at Pit. There is a neutral spawn for rockets and OS. At the start of the game will you send 3 players to secure rockets and 1 to the other or will you split and hope to fight to get both. I'd argue strategy will become completely linear and almost like a flowchart if the game was just starting weapons. There would theoretically be one optimal way to set up map control, one optimal way to react to each spawn of the enemies, and one optimal way to push for objectives. Every team would try to play the most optimal way, and will lead to every game people will go for the same start because if they win they will have the optimal map control setup. In the Overwatch league for the past few months one team comp has ruled the game called GOATS. it essentially boiled down to a mirror match at the top level of play. whoever won each game was determined by who could play the mirror match better. It became stale and repetitive because it really was the same strats and teamfights every time. Recently a lower-tiered team found success against a top 2 team when they ran a different lineup and it opened up the doors for many teams to experiment with different lineups. Now top teams have to be good enough to know how to play around multiple matchups and multiple situations. Without power weapons, there would be one perfect way to play the game and teams would chase that with no counter strategies. Of course, there still is a perfect way to play the game without them, but there are more variables to consider that it makes the perfect optimal play hard to achieve, and leaves it up to a team's judgement. A good Halo player has to have good decision making. This means knowing where to be, when to be there, and what to do, and then they still need mechanical skills to back it up. With power weapons added, a player must consider, where is the power weapon spawn?, when is the power weapon spawn?, does the enemy team have a power weapon?, how much ammo do they have left?, do we have a power weapon?, how much ammo does ours have left?. All these questions make knowing where to be, when to be there, and what to do a much harder judgement to make because there are plenty of different situations to consider, not just one.

Lockout just has shitty placement for their power weapons, and a map design that rewards camping. Also, it has been known since halo 3 that slayer is the worst competitive game type and CTF is the best.

My point still stands. The layout is bad but only for certain modes. It plays decently good on Oddball or KOTH.

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Say what you want about slayer as a competitive game type in any Halo after CE but 2v2 slayer in CE still has a wider skill gap and much more depth to it than any 4v4 objective mode that has been played competitively in any Halo since.

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10 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Scrap the infinite ammo and then maybe

That would make it most effective on mid tier, battery operated weapons like the Plasma Rifle and Sentinel Beam.  Not a bad compromise, make mid tier weapons better without buffing the power weapons too much.

But a team has to be doing something very wrong to let one enemy get rockets and a power up, or the map is poorly designed.

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6 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Oddball can make literally any map good, provided it's not too big. 

What makes a good oddball map?  Too many one way escape routes like gravity lifts or man cannons tilt the odds in favor of the carrier.  Too much open space tilts it in favor the attackers.  What kind of map works best for Oddball?

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5 minutes ago, Boyo said:

What makes a good oddball map?  Too many one way escape routes like gravity lifts or man cannons tilt the odds in favor of the carrier.  Too much open space tilts it in favor the attackers.  What kind of map works best for Oddball?

Well, think about it. Lockout is a terrible map for basically everything except Oddball. Tower defense, no-man's land in the middle, too few access points, high areas are too strong, suicide rooms, goofy asymmetry, bad objective spawn points, etc. 

But for oddball it works just fine. This more or less proves that unless you are literally trying to make the worst map in Halo history (or something nutty like Chiron), you'll probably be able to play oddball on the map. 

The element of taking one player out of the fight to focus on the objective while also not tying said player down to an area or a predictable route is a recipe for success regardless of the map design or the in-game mechanics. 

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Speedflag gametypes allow a flag carrier to move and fight while carrying the objective.

In an Oddball match, would giving a Gravity Hammer user speedflag abilities shift the balance too much in favor of the carrier?  The objective and the gravity hammer are both 1sk melee weapons.  Would allowing a gravity hammer user to retain full movement and attack capabilities while carrying the objective be too much?

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1 hour ago, The Tyco said:

I guess Octagon should be the default Halo competitive experience then.

Pretty faulty logic leap. We know through games like Halo 5 objective gametypes that maps without or lacking in pickups like that don't devolve into octagons. If you immediately burn camo on Truth, it's not an octagon for those next two minutes. Given. You know. Geometry doesn't vanish.

44 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Do you have any plans to add new picks up or mechanics once power weapons are removed?  Like, what would your ideal match look like?

Speaking of less powerful pick ups, if you could design a power up for a 1v1 match, what would it do?

Towards the former, that'd be its own thing. All I really want is cheese stuff gone to be honest. I wouldn't know what to add in its place, if anything because I enjoy the game at a utility level with the emphasis on map movement. Ideally, it'd be more map control and sheer dominance through actual gunskill. Not based around pickups.

Towards the power up, same thing. Maybe just a speed boost? It's one of the few things I didn't hate. Sped up your strafe, moving faster isn't an inherent advantage (in the event there's no one shot kill shit), and it'll promote aggressiveness and good peak shooting. Rather than using it to run to the weapons, you use it to out movement your opponents. It isn't giving you a buff to your shields in an already slow-paced game (compared to others), it isn't removing the ability to see/shoot you like camo does, and it isn't buffing your damage. It's just amplifying what matters. Your movement.

4 minutes ago, andregr said:

The strategy from the strart comes from what power weapons youre gonna push. Look at Pit. There is a neutral spawn for rockets and OS. At the start of the game will you send 3 players to secure rockets and 1 to the other or will you split and hope to fight to get both.

I'd argue strategy will become completely linear and almost like a flowchart if the game was just starting weapons. There would theoretically be one optimal way to set up map control, one optimal way to react to each spawn of the enemies, and one optimal way to push for objectives. Every team would try to play the most optimal way, and will lead to every game people will go for the same start because if they win they will have the optimal map control setup. In the Overwatch league for the past few months one team comp has ruled the game called GOATS. it essentially boiled down to a mirror match at the top level of play. whoever won each game was determined by who could play the mirror match better. It became stale and repetitive because it really was the same strats and teamfights every time.

Recently a lower-tiered team found success against a top 2 team when they ran a different lineup and it opened up the doors for many teams to experiment with different lineups. Now top teams have to be good enough to know how to play around multiple matchups and multiple situations. Without power weapons, there would be one perfect way to play the game and teams would chase that with no counter strategies.

Of course, there still is a perfect way to play the game without them, but there are more variables to consider that it makes the perfect optimal play hard to achieve, and leaves it up to a team's judgement. A good Halo player has to have good decision making. This means knowing where to be, when to be there, and what to do, and then they still need mechanical skills to back it up. With power weapons added, a player must consider, where is the power weapon spawn?, when is the power weapon spawn?, does the enemy team have a power weapon?, how much ammo do they have left?, do we have a power weapon?, how much ammo does ours have left?. All these questions make knowing where to be, when to be there, and what to do a much harder judgement to make because there are plenty of different situations to consider, not just one.

And I'll counter by bringing up the aforementioned Truth CTF with a burned camo. If neither of you gets the power up, the game doesn't just suddenly devolve into a flowchart where nothing changes. Different individual plays are made, different pushes, and different fights occur at different times. While I think there are more efficient ways to play the map, I don't think there is one way to play it (Maybe unless you were a set of bots), given how Halo's spawns, and situational flag pulls work, among many other things. You're not always gonna be squad wiping the enemy team and pulling to camo.

Likewise with that said, a simple objective accomplishes almost all of those major decision making needs without involving a lopsided pickup. Picking up the flag and the enemy not having LoS on you pushes them into a nearly identical corner, and same with them picking up your flag. Decision making is entirely important. I just don't believe it should be done through a rocket launcher or a camo, and I also don't believe it's created by them, or is reliant on them, and that you can streamline the process of gameplay without compromising integrity.

 

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It would be easier for me to understand what you don’t like about Halo if you could define “cheese stuff”.  Where is the cutoff between a cheesy, no skill power weapon and a viable, mid tier pick up weapon?

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23 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Speedflag gametypes allow a flag carrier to move and fight while carrying the objective.

In an Oddball match, would giving a Gravity Hammer user speedflag abilities shift the balance too much in favor of the carrier?  The objective and the gravity hammer are both 1sk melee weapons.  Would allowing a gravity hammer user to retain full movement and attack capabilities while carrying the objective be too much?

I don't think there's anything wrong with oddball as it is. That's why I thought throwing the oddball was fucking stupid and pointless and pure ADHD-bait. 

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7 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with oddball as it is. That's why I thought throwing the oddball was fucking stupid and pointless and pure ADHD-bait. 

Forget oddball throwing.

An oddball carrier can already 1sk melee proximate enemies.  Would giving him the powers of the gravity hammer really alter his existing abilities that much?

The idea is that securing the gravity hammer before picking up an objective gives the carrier a bit more freedom of play in how he carries that objective home.

Are you a purisist, insisting the objective be carried home in the traditional manner or are you ready for new mechanics?

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1 hour ago, LI Mr X IL said:

Say what you want about slayer as a competitive game type in any Halo after CE but 2v2 slayer in CE still has a wider skill gap and much more depth to it than any 4v4 objective mode that has been played competitively in any Halo since.

That is the most ignorant and purist comment ive ever heard of.

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1 minute ago, Arlong said:

That is the most ignorant and purist comment ive ever heard of.

Defeat him with facts and logic, not vague fucking arguments.

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Extra jump height would be a great powerup in a game with otherwise restricted movement. It’s the element of surprise in its purest form, with no real combat advantages. Maybe it would be best to lower the gravity instead so you could get way more distance from grenade jumps, and also have the tradeoff of a more easily punished jump in firefights. I can imagine this being really cool on 1v1 maps specifically.

Another pretty tame powerup would be the Battlesuit from Quake. It gives you a medium amount of extra armor but more importantly makes you immune to splash damage. Again, this would be useful for grenade jumps, but also for challenging players in power positions and even vehicles. The main problem is how to convey the function of this powerup. It would have to be done in campaign in order to teach people effectively.

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A pick up that reduces the effectiveness of splash explosive damage is easy enough to understand.  Conveying that this power up is active on the user may be more difficult.  

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19 minutes ago, Boyo said:

It would be easier for me to understand what you don’t like about Halo if you could define “cheese stuff”.  Where is the cutoff between a cheesy, no skill power weapon and a viable, mid tier pick up weapon?

Really depends. Camo outright can remove your ability to see/shoot at someone, but doesn't offer a power boost in and of itself. Rockets by straight up power standards are uncontested in a straight gunfight, but you're visible. OS doesn't give you power, or remove your ability to be seen, but makes you a tank for bullets. I guess you'd lump it together as "stuff you can't contest in one way or another".

You'll reach a point where you can't realistically see far enough to recognize potential displacement from camo, or the maps themselves don't let you see it easily. So you'll turn away or not see them and fire while the other person can literally wait for this and get a guaranteed one to two shots off on you, by which point, you'll nearly always die. Or in the event you see them, you don't get aim assist while they do. And given it's camo, you also get free, uncontested map movement. So it's not like you're just looking in/traversing conventional areas.

Or you'll turn a corner to someone who jump peaks with a rocket. Boom. Gone. One shot they could miss with and your movement doesn't matter while they can make dumbass plays because of the power no one else has. 

Or you'll slide down that hallway and run into the OS dude, who you can literally only weather down a bit, but can't guarantee a kill on, bar a lucky ninja. Because your ability to push out damage won't matter to this person's contrasting ability to tank those shots. You may as well be missing given old Halos don't track damage, lol.

Stuff like that is what I'd define as cheesy, because of how you'll die to it. Your actual skill doesn't matter when you die to a dude tanking your rounds with OS, or to someone who has rockets. Or to someone you outright can't see/naturally swipe your reticle over for the AA tug.

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It’s almost like you should play differently against different power ups/weapons. Gee wiz.

Im so tired of this conversation.

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