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Halo Championship Series 2018 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Game streaming will always be an inferior experience to gaming locally, cuz physics.

It's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Streaming will be useful where lugging large, expensive hardware is impractical for hardware intensive games

 

It'll supplement the traditional experience rather than replace it.

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I wouldn't say always. Yes, using the speed of light as a constraint, the further your processing is done from your input/output (aka monitor + controller, or phone + touch screen, etc.), the greater the minimum possible latency will be. So, when you're playing at home on your Xbox, which is doing all the processing, there is a veryyy small delay between what you do and what the system sees. When you do it over the cloud, there is that additional transit time as the information is transferred to the remote servers to do the computing. 

 

However, the delay due to the speed of light is pretty small. Over a fiber connection, it's less than 8 ms per 1000 miles of cable. So if you have a perfect connection to a server cluster 500 miles ago, the round trip latency from the connection would be less than 8 ms, which is 0.008 seconds. At 60 FPS, we're talking about 1 frame every 1/60th of a second, which is 0.0167 seconds = 16.7 ms. So the "transport delay" of the connection is half of one 60 FPS frame. That does seem like a lot, considering that the system still needs to perform all necessary calculations before it can send the return signal. But remember that when you're playing online, you still have to communicate with the server every frame to negotiate your in-game state with respect to the states of all other players (when this goes bad, you see "rubber banding" and other types of things we call "lag"). So we already have some cloud related latencies in our current gaming experience.

 

But what the servers do now is much less than full physics calculations, which is what is done locally. So it's fair to expect greater latency for cloud based gaming vs. traditional MP servers. 

 

However, I think we can see great improvements than today's cloud gaming solutions due to: 1. increased server side computing performance, 2. increased network performance, and 3. increased computing distribution.

 

1. If the server side systems are much more powerful than your local box, they can complete all the necessary calculations per frame much faster than your local system. The transport delay will still apply. I'm not a game developer, so I don't know the bottleneck relationship in this situation: if the computing power increase outweighs the increase in delay, it's still a net positive.

 

2. As networks become better, connections will improve, and you'll approach the minimum possible latency, constrained by the speed of light. In practical terms, this means fiber (or possibly better) connections 100% of the way from server to your home.

 

3. Increasing the distribution of computing power means smaller distances from users to the servers. This could arise from building more Azure data centers or from building a network of smaller centers all over the country. I always imagined this would be the future of computing: even in your own home, you might have a centralized computing station, like a server, and other devices in your home just become network points with I/O devices.

 

With those 3 improvements, I think we can eventually reach a point where cloud-based gaming is practically indistinguishable from fully local gaming. Yes, the latency will never be as low due to physics, but the cloud could out-compute anything you have locally. 

 

I mean, i know all this and unfortunately i think you are describing an "internet utopia" that will frankly never exist lol.  Could certain people in certain places use totally off-host game streaming and have a decent experience?  Sure.  But will most people, especially competitive players, ever be able to without some sort of noticeable downgrade in quality, latency, etc?  No way.  Until everybody who wants that service has direct access to the datacenter doing the processing with only a couple hops in between, it just won't pass muster.

 

 

 

It's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Streaming will be useful where lugging large, expensive hardware is impractical for hardware intensive games

It'll supplement the traditional experience rather than replace it.

 

 

Yeah totally.  I am not saying its not something that could be good for a lot of people despite the numerous failures to this point, but i certainly won't be utilizing it for anything that is even mildly competitive. And it will never be as good as local gaming is (provided you have decent hardware).

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Saint Louis only had 3 teams show up on Sunday. In the past, Halo 5 dubs tourneys have had around 10 teams.

Huh, I'm surprised to hear that. A small dip I could see, not a seven team dip though. It was thanksgiving this weekend in Canada and historically my store has had significantly less people than you guys and we pulled seven teams. I hope you guys see more success over the next two H3 events.

 

Was there any regulars who were missing that maybe had something else going on, or do you think your community just doesn't care about Halo 3?

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Making it cloud-based is really a brilliant way to do it. That way, if it's a nice sunny day outside, you get to go outside instead since you can't play Halo.

You’ve outdone yourself Tibby

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2. As networks become better, connections will improve, and you'll approach the minimum possible latency, constrained by the speed of light. In practical terms, this means fiber (or possibly better) connections 100% of the way from server to your home.

 

Just want to touch on this specifically because it's in my field of expertise. The vast majority of the latency between you and any given server is not in the wires themselves but in the actual data processing that occurs at either end, and often many times in between. The theoretical minimum for this time would be the time length of the data packet itself. The reason I point this out is that in the next major WiFi release that will come out within the next 18 months will drastically increase the maximum length of these data packets. While this is exclusively at one end of the system this change is occurring, it will be a big enough increase in latency that it may hamper the cloud gaming experience. It tries to make up for this loss in other ways but may still be noticeable in some systems.

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Huh, I'm surprised to hear that. A small dip I could see, not a seven team dip though. It was thanksgiving this weekend in Canada and historically my store has had significantly less people than you guys and we pulled seven teams. I hope you guys see more success over the next two H3 events.

 

Was there any regulars who were missing that maybe had something else going on, or do you think your community just doesn't care about Halo 3?

.

Which store do you go to?

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Huh, I'm surprised to hear that. A small dip I could see, not a seven team dip though. It was thanksgiving this weekend in Canada and historically my store has had significantly less people than you guys and we pulled seven teams. I hope you guys see more success over the next two H3 events.

 

Was there any regulars who were missing that maybe had something else going on, or do you think your community just doesn't care about Halo 3?

I think my community doesn't care about Halo 3 as much. Could be wrong though!

 

 

 

.

Which store do you go to?

I go to the Saint Louis Galleria. 

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.

Which store do you go to?

Chinook Mall in Calgary. Our numbers fluctuate all over the place, sometimes we have six teams and have a solid day, sometimes we have three people and we all just go home.

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Right, Halo 3 had to compete with Modern Warfare, World at War with how huge Nazi Zombies was, then Modern Warfare 2 and stayed with the top 3 the whole time.  Only dropping from #1 usually shortly after the release of a big game and regaining the top sport shortly after. Plus there was a smattering of other popular shooters like battlefield and gears of war and some huge single player games (RDR, Fallout 3, GTA IV).  The "Halo 3 had no competition" argument is revisionist history by people making excuses for why Halo fell off a cliff, plain and simple.

yeah I took the context the other (wrong) way. I thought we were talking about comp halo. i agree with what you wrote in this post though.

 

Also I went through the cod vs halo 3 nelson charts awhile ago, and WaW won the most weeks in its lifespan. It traded with halo3 all the time though. h3 even got a few #1s vs mw2 (map pack release and then some other seemingly random week). Though nelson recently deleted all those lists for whatever reason because I can't find them again. 

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yeah I took the context the other (wrong) way. I thought we were talking about comp halo. i agree with what you wrote in this post though.

 

Also I went through the cod vs halo 3 nelson charts awhile ago, and WaW won the most weeks in its lifespan. It traded with halo3 all the time though. h3 even got a few #1s vs mw2 (map pack release and then some other seemingly random week). Though nelson recently deleted all those lists for whatever reason because I can't find them again. 

Yeah.  I think there can be an argument made that some (a small minority) of the reason that Halo's population declined with Halo 5 was because 343 is years behind the "Games as a Service" model and the way they tried to shoehorn it into Halo 5 was uninspired at best.  BUT, that is a tiny fraction of the reason.  The quality of competition is certainly not higher now nor are there a greater number of competitors that overlap the shooter space but the style of competition has changed and 343 fell behind.  That is a totally different discussion though than "having no competition" which is total revisionist history.

 

I don't need Halo to be #1 on the chart all the times for years on end, but it should certainly be within the top 5 most played and trading blows with the big-hitters regularly.  Dropping out of the top 10 within a year is inexcusable.

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do you think Halo Infinite should just go back to only campaign and multiplayer like halos 1-3 and resort all resources to those.

 

Or do you think in this age that we need an "extra" gamemode like Cod's blackout or zombies? Do we need/want a firefight/horde mode? Warzone? Battle royale? A whole new gametype?

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do you think Halo Infinite should just go back to only campaign and multiplayer like halos 1-3 and resort all resources to those.

 

Or do you think in this age that we need an "extra" gamemode like Cod's blackout or zombies? Do we need/want a firefight/horde mode? Warzone? Battle royale? A whole new gametype?

I think Reach had it right. Campaign, traditional multiplayer, Invasion, Firefight. Halo could definitely pull off a zombies mode with the Flood too.

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wait is ske7ch actually going to answer one question?  trying to interpret 'just for fun' lol.  it's hard to describe exactly how curious I am about Infinite multiplayer ...

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wait is ske7ch actually going to answer one question?  trying to interpret 'just for fun' lol.  it's hard to describe exactly how curious I am about Infinite multiplayer ...

Well he said that Infinite wont be at xbox's big event in a month hahahahahahahahahahaha :mj:

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So uh, this is happening: https://www.twitch.tv/Halo

 

In case anyone else had no fucking clue. I swear if you don't memorise the dates for these things on the day of the bulletin you ain't gonna know.

 

Maybe it's just me?

 

EDIT: Of course. God dammit Scarecrow

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Maybe it's just me?

 

We've discussed it here. A lot of people disagreed and I understand why but I like this from a production standpoint. The open tournament begins on the day when MOST people are available. Only 4 teams need to free up their following Tuesdays allowing for a good show from the studio with Heinz being able to observe. 

 

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