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Halo World Championship 2018 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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sweet deal.  When you need playtesters, i do software QA for a living and I work for cheap (ie for this, free lol).

 

 

I think a lot of this shit was brought up.  You think Neighbor and Dersky and Ghost didn't notice the janky aiming or input delay on some of this shit?  Of course they did, and they probably brought it up and compromises excuses were probably made or "thats not what the code says" or something.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some of it wasn't brought up. Some of the pro players didn't even realize jumping melees were delayed and that turning off GP fixed it for awhile.  343 likely knew it was delayed but decided that it was "good enough". There are posts on this website from at least one of the people you mentioned implying that they actually changed aiming for the better from beta to what we ended up with. Point being that while good players are generally going to notice flaws its the forum warriors/random youtube kids that break down some of this stuff to a science because they have a different focus. Learning to win and figuring out why aiming feels bad are pretty different skill sets. Not to mention how much more likely it is for us to collectively figure things out when there are hundreds of thousands of us vs a handful of guys being the pro team.

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Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some of it wasn't brought up. Some of the pro players didn't even realize jumping melees were delayed and that turning off GP fixed it for awhile.  343 likely knew it was delayed but decided that it was "good enough". There are posts on this website from at least one of the people you mentioned implying that they actually changed aiming for the better from beta to what we ended up with. Point being that while good players are generally going to notice flaws its the forum warriors/random youtube kids that break down some of this stuff to a science because they have a different focus. Learning to win and figuring out why aiming feels bad are pretty different skill sets. Not to mention how much more likely it is for us to collectively figure things out when there are hundreds of thousands of us vs a handful of guys being the pro team.

 

I can see this PoV too but there is one big variable that makes me think this isn't the case.  Its different when you work for someone and you are publicly representing the people that sign your paychecks.  Dollars to donuts this shit was brought up internally but the message externally was always "the company line".  I don't blame people when they have to do that.  It's a stupid thing to jeopardize your job over.  However, I find it incredibly hard to believe that between strongside, neighbor, ghost, dersky, bravo and the handful of not-pro but still actually good players like Unyshek, that multiple people didn't go "yo this aiming is F'd" or "the melee delay is so damn annoying".

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http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/5443-halo-5-guardians-discussion/page-5378?do=findComment&comment=884420

 

This was late 2016 but truthfully I haven't seen a big influx of quality maps since then so I doubt much has changed.

 

I'd be most likely to push Twice Forsaken/Fullmetal from that list. I'll explain more why later today when I'm home.

 

That post needs to be stickied and have way more rep than it does damn.  I bet tweeting this at 343 wouldn't make a difference just because you're the one that compiled it haha.  If you were to stroke your own ego for a second which of your own maps would be best for 4s?

 

Edit: Sorry double post fuck it im not fixing it.

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For the aiming specifically I really think they realized something went wrong in transition from beta to retail and missed whatever it was that was actually causing the problem and instead fell down the rabbit hole of convoluted changes to dead zones, curves and input sensitivity until they were just used to it and settled on something. Then you got a bunch of people on release that weren't used to it noticing how fucking weird everything was and FINALLY after over a year people investigated enough to make 343 check it out in depth and caught what was actually wrong. Like 7 aiming tuning updates later.

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For the aiming specifically I really think they realized something went wrong in transition from beta to retail and missed whatever it was that was actually causing the problem and instead fell down the rabbit hole of convoluted changes to dead zones, curves and input sensitivity until they were just used to it and settled on something. Then you got a bunch of people on release that weren't used to it noticing how fucking weird everything was and FINALLY after over a year people investigated enough to make 343 check it out in depth and caught what was actually wrong. Like 7 aiming tuning updates later.

 

Yeah i buy that for sure.  You have to reach a point where you just go "ok we are rolling this aiming module back to beta" and go from there though.  Leave your ego at the door.  I can't imagine they changed a bunch of dependencies so they couldn't go back.  Unless the changes that borked it happened so close to retail launch that it would have been too risky to roll back.  To look on the bright side... all the fervor over the crappy aiming gave us deadzone, X and Y axis and acceleration options.  All that shit should be standard in AAA shooters nowadays though, so hopefully it sticks around for H6.  Ideally there will also be an accurate "Acceleration curve" profile so i can just pick Halo 2 then move on with my life.

 

There is other shit that they didn't deliver on that they said they would even within a couple months before launch like Split-Screen and the ability to tune individual weapons without a full TU.  Both of which ended up not being true.  Something definitely happened during the course of development that forced them to cut A LOTTTTT of shit too.  Other than the things i just mentioned, do we really think that there was honestly only supposed to be 3 MC missions in campaign? Or that the 3, 2 minute "go talk to these 3 people" missions were how those missions were originally storyboarded?  Or that forge was supposed to take 3 extra months to release? I certainly don't think those were the original plans (or at least i hope not). Seems like at least 50% of the shit they had planned for launch day, didn't make it.

 

To be honest, given all the shit wrong, missing and lack of community understanding (Only ranked playlists on launch, no dev big team for example.  who thought that was a good idea?) Its kind of amazing that Halo 5 did as well as it did.

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That post needs to be stickied and have way more rep than it does damn. I bet tweeting this at 343 wouldn't make a difference just because you're the one that compiled it haha. If you were to stroke your own ego for a second which of your own maps would be best for 4s?

 

Edit: Sorry double post fuck it im not fixing it.

I haven't published any 4v4 maps in Halo 5, just as a disclaimer so no one here thinks I'm salty about not having my own maps there lol. I realized really early on in this game that 2s was a much better sweet spot than 4s, same case for Reach. Halo 3/4 were better BTB/4v4 games so those were primarily what I forged. H2A I did a bit of everything because it was actually a somewhat decent Halo so it played generally good for all player counts. But like I said, all my *published* Halo 5 maps are for doubles.

 

I've got another 30 or so unfinished maps sitting on my hard drive for 4s/BTB but I wouldn't ever give 343 anything. My talents are for my own project, Halo is dad.

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I haven't published any 4v4 maps in Halo 5, just as a disclaimer so no one here thinks I'm salty about not having my own maps there lol. I realized really early on in this game that 2s was a much better sweet spot than 4s, same case for Reach. Halo 3/4 were better BTB/4v4 games so those were primarily what I forged. H2A I did a bit of everything because it was actually a somewhat decent Halo so it played generally good for all player counts. But like I said, all my *published* Halo 5 maps are for doubles.

 

I've got another 30 or so unfinished maps sitting on my hard drive for 4s/BTB but I wouldn't ever give 343 anything. My talents are for my own project, Halo is dad.

 

Yeah, i figured you wouldn't release anything new at this point.  Good luck with your project.

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I'm sitting here amazed that so many people apparently didn't notice the difference in melee speed when jumping vs standing when ground pound is enabled.  I'm generally oblivious to details like this, and I noticed it the very first time I tried a jumping melee.  Immediately afterward, I loaded up a custom game by myself to make sure I wasn't imagining things.  This is when the cursing began.  I thought it was pretty obvious.

 

On a completely different topic, I used to love forging 4v4 maps. I've only made one in this game, and the thought of building one now makes me sick to my stomach.  I can't stand the thought of watching anything I build be played competitively in Halo 5, but this is especially the case for 4v4.  The design approach needed to make a decent playing map creates gameplay I don't enjoy playing or watching.  It's not that it's bad exactly, but it's far removed from the simplicity that's always drawn me to Halo.  I've always said that I don't love level design, I love designing levels for Halo.  I feel like I'm designing for an entirely different game with H5, and I just don't enjoy it at all.  

 

Also, I think I've said this before here, but forgers have had no reason to build 4v4 maps.  There has been support for forge maps in BTB, 2v2, and specialty gametypes, but never anything for competitive 4v4.  When you combine this with the fact that most forgers prefer smaller or larger player counts, you end up with the list that's currently being considered.  Which is not to say that the list is horrendous, but it's not good.  It's to be expected when you have the combination of no support, and it being a player count that forgers don't particularly enjoy designing for.  I don't think I could put together a list of 5 decent 4v4 maps, (even most of the maps that Multi linked to are not very good for 4v4).

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I'm sitting here amazed that so many people apparently didn't notice the difference in melee speed when jumping vs standing when ground pound is enabled. I'm generally oblivious to details like this, and I noticed it the very first time I tried a jumping melee. Immediately afterward, I loaded up a custom game by myself to make sure I wasn't imagining things. This is when the cursing began. I thought it was pretty obvious.

 

On a completely different topic, I used to love forging 4v4 maps. I've only made one in this game, and the thought of building one now makes me sick to my stomach. I can't stand the thought of watching anything I build be played competitively in Halo 5, but this is especially the case for 4v4. The design approach needed to make a decent playing map creates gameplay I don't enjoy playing or watching. It's not that it's bad exactly, but it's far removed from the simplicity that's always drawn me to Halo. I've always said that I don't love level design, I love designing levels for Halo. I feel like I'm designing for an entirely different game with H5, and I just don't enjoy it at all.

 

Also, I think I've said this before here, but forgers have had no reason to build 4v4 maps. There has been support for forge maps in BTB, 2v2, and specialty gametypes, but never anything for competitive 4v4. When you combine this with the fact that most forgers prefer smaller or larger player counts, you end up with the list that's currently being considered. Which is not to say that the list is horrendous, but it's not good. It's to be expected when you have the combination of no support, and it being a player count that forgers don't particularly enjoy designing for. I don't think I could put together a list of 5 decent 4v4 maps, (even most of the maps that Multi linked to are not very good for 4v4).

You're my favorite

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I'm sitting here amazed that so many people apparently didn't notice the difference in melee speed when jumping vs standing when ground pound is enabled. I'm generally oblivious to details like this, and I noticed it the very first time I tried a jumping melee. Immediately afterward, I loaded up a custom game by myself to make sure I wasn't imagining things. This is when the cursing began. I thought it was pretty obvious.

 

On a completely different topic, I used to love forging 4v4 maps. I've only made one in this game, and the thought of building one now makes me sick to my stomach. I can't stand the thought of watching anything I build be played competitively in Halo 5, but this is especially the case for 4v4. The design approach needed to make a decent playing map creates gameplay I don't enjoy playing or watching. It's not that it's bad exactly, but it's far removed from the simplicity that's always drawn me to Halo. I've always said that I don't love level design, I love designing levels for Halo. I feel like I'm designing for an entirely different game with H5, and I just don't enjoy it at all.

 

Also, I think I've said this before here, but forgers have had no reason to build 4v4 maps. There has been support for forge maps in BTB, 2v2, and specialty gametypes, but never anything for competitive 4v4. When you combine this with the fact that most forgers prefer smaller or larger player counts, you end up with the list that's currently being considered. Which is not to say that the list is horrendous, but it's not good. It's to be expected when you have the combination of no support, and it being a player count that forgers don't particularly enjoy designing for. I don't think I could put together a list of 5 decent 4v4 maps, (even most of the maps that Multi linked to are not very good for 4v4).

The GP thing was talked about heavily in previous hcs threads. there was a GDC presentation that explained 343s thought process on this very topic. a couple of pros even demonstrated it way back then.

 

perhaps people forgot...

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The GP thing was talked about heavily in previous hcs threads. there was a GDC presentation that explained 343s thought process on this very topic. a couple of pros even demonstrated it way back then.

 

perhaps people forgot...

 

I definitely never forgot.  I tend to hold the melee button for a split second anyway, which delays the melee even longer. Not long enough to trigger GP, but long enough to exaggerate the delay.    I have always done that and its one of the reasons why i think "Assassination" animations are fucking idiotic.  When they first introduced them (whichever halo that was) you couldn't turn them off.  It was "tap to melee, Hold to assassinate" and i always accidentally assassinated. 

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I definitely never forgot.  I tend to hold the melee button for a split second anyway, which delays the melee even longer. Not long enough to trigger GP, but long enough to exaggerate the delay.    I have always done that and its one of the reasons why i think "Assassination" animations are fucking idiotic.  When they first introduced them (whichever halo that was) you couldn't turn them off.  It was "tap to melee, Hold to assassinate" and i always accidentally assassinated. 

 

It seems to me that if you need to map so many different mechanics to the same buttons, maybe you need to rethink fundamental elements of the game's design. I can't think of a single time that "context-sensitive" mechanics and awkward solutions like "press to X, hold for arbitrary amount of time to Y" haven't resulted in the game doing what you didn't intend a significant percentage of the time.

 

That said, the ground pound implementation in H5 is just bizarre. Why wouldn't they just trigger the melee animation on button down and then blend into the ground pound afterwards if you hold it? Instead, there is a very noticeable window where your Spartan does absolutely nothing as the game makes sure you're not holding the button before doing ANYTHING. I feel like there has to be some kind of weird technical limitation or they ran out of time, because that is just so clearly sub-optimal.

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 I feel like there has to be some kind of weird technical limitation or they ran out of time, because that is just so clearly sub-optimal.

 

Sounds like the entire Halo 5 engine

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It seems to me that if you need to map so many different mechanics to the same buttons, maybe you need to rethink fundamental elements of the game's design. I can't think of a single time that "context-sensitive" mechanics and awkward solutions like "press to X, hold for arbitrary amount of time to Y" haven't resulted in the game doing what you didn't intend a significant percentage of the time.

 

That said, the ground pound implementation in H5 is just bizarre. Why wouldn't they just trigger the melee animation on button down and then blend into the ground pound afterwards if you hold it? Instead, there is a very noticeable window where your Spartan does absolutely nothing as the game makes sure you're not holding the button before doing ANYTHING. I feel like there has to be some kind of weird technical limitation or they ran out of time, because that is just so clearly sub-optimal.

 

It had to be a "Form before function" decision right? Some sort of psuedo-Apple BS. "If it looks good it will feel good".  idk if you watched "The Sprint" at all, but there were definitely times where the art guys made decisions that got in the way of actual gameplay and they just let them stand...  Now that i actually work in software development, i should rewatch that shit.

 

Edit:  Yeah, i definitely see that as a decision based on "well it will be weird" but even if thats true, having it be "weird" for the first couple times you hit the button should be far less of a consideration than having extra lag every single time you melee when your feet aren't on the ground which will easily happen thousands of times.  Unless there actually is some sort of weird technical limitation in which case thats just sad bro.

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Nothing Halo related other than past moments but the last Vision produced by Hitch.

 

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Yeah i buy that for sure.  You have to reach a point where you just go "ok we are rolling this aiming module back to beta" and go from there though.  Leave your ego at the door.  I can't imagine they changed a bunch of dependencies so they couldn't go back.  Unless the changes that borked it happened so close to retail launch that it would have been too risky to roll back.  To look on the bright side... all the fervor over the crappy aiming gave us deadzone, X and Y axis and acceleration options.  All that shit should be standard in AAA shooters nowadays though, so hopefully it sticks around for H6.  Ideally there will also be an accurate "Acceleration curve" profile so i can just pick Halo 2 then move on with my life.

 

There is other shit that they didn't deliver on that they said they would even within a couple months before launch like Split-Screen and the ability to tune individual weapons without a full TU.  Both of which ended up not being true.  Something definitely happened during the course of development that forced them to cut A LOTTTTT of shit too.  Other than the things i just mentioned, do we really think that there was honestly only supposed to be 3 MC missions in campaign? Or that the 3, 2 minute "go talk to these 3 people" missions were how those missions were originally storyboarded?  Or that forge was supposed to take 3 extra months to release? I certainly don't think those were the original plans (or at least i hope not). Seems like at least 50% of the shit they had planned for launch day, didn't make it.

 

To be honest, given all the shit wrong, missing and lack of community understanding (Only ranked playlists on launch, no dev big team for example.  who thought that was a good idea?) Its kind of amazing that Halo 5 did as well as it did.

 

It's crazy how with Halo 2, Bungie released a documentary detailing a lot of their development failures. If you watch that thing, a lot of the guys just seem miserable and unsatisfied with the final state of the game. And that wasn't a 5-10 years later retrospective, it came out at launch with the game. To be fair, it was given a fresh coat of, "yeah, we fucked up, but at least we stuck the landing!" paint, but it was still really nice to hear them talk about where they screwed up. With Halo 5, something very, very obviously went askew during development, but we don't know anything. It's all sunshine and rainbows at 343 and no one could possibly be unhappy with how the game turned out.

 

H5 is really interesting to me too because, it's not an MCC or even a Halo 2. The game is polished. It looks pretty nice and everything works as you would expect. It just launched without hardly any fucking content at all. It's this weird kind of Stepford Wives unfinished, where everything looks pretty and clean on the outside, but the second you look closer something is obviously wrong. I'd love to know what the fuck happened and where they prioritized their focus once the sky started falling, but I guess we'll probably never know. We can't even get a proper MCC breakdown. Frankie's long awaited explanation stuck to the, "we really didn't know it was this bad, honest guys!" story, which is clearly horseshit.

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It may be in the Vision episode, but Formal is now on LG.

 

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Peanutbutter and jealous.

Same man. Just catching up, but I've been trying to grab some MLG gear/FB hoodies for a long time now and I know a lot of people would love to get FB hoodies or gear.

 

They had final boss long sleeve shirts last event in columbus. Keep an eye out at upcoming MLG events and see if one of us can snag one for you.

Please, please, if you go to another event, and there are FB shirts, just grab me a large, PLEASE. I'll pay for the shirt and a little bit of a finder's fee. 

 

It is really peak TeamBeyond logic to think removing core game mechanics would bring in any noticeable increase in viewers 3.5 years into a H5's cycle.

Maybe it won't increase viewers so much as increase enjoyment in playing and watching the game? Halo 5 sucks man, it's sucked for 3 and a half years, so maybe it's time for a desperate measure to change it up and create some positive buzz going into their next title? I don't know, I'm not a game designer or marketing manager, but it's pretty clear, and has been for a bit, that people just don't really like Halo 5 on the same scale as other titles in the series or games that are being played right now. 

 

No frame rate/glitches. Frame rate was good, unclamberable spots were on purpose. We stopped playing because 343 said they weren't adding it. I haven't stepped up now because I'm done trying to give a fuck.

Hate to see the change in attitude, but that's what this game/team has done. Good luck man, and bless you for trying to stick it out this long.

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I wonder why they're hesitating to add or at the very least playtest the Sanctuary remake that Ryanoob played? Do they have any good reason?

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I wonder why they're hesitating to add or at the very least playtest the Sanctuary remake that Ryanoob played? Do they have any good reason?

They're probably just not interested in more remakes. They already have midship and a remix of it. Plus Sanc was one of only 3 maps in H2A. It doesn't look like a ton of thought was put into the forge candidates. Maybe 1 might be not bad but most of them are obviously not good 4s maps. Too corridor-y, large and/or segmented like a Victorian house.

 

It's too bad. Nothing wrong with remakes. A good map is a good map.

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