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Halo World Championship 2018 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Just because Bungie's placing of equipment on maps was ******** does not mean the mechanic itself is ********. You can 100% treat equipment as different power weapons if you just increase the time between spawns and decrease the number of different equipment spawns.

 

You act like the Rocket is different. If I hear someone close behind me I can do a 180 and almost definitely kill them. Rockets take almost no skill to use qnd if someone is having difficulty with them they're probably thumbless. It takes just as little skill as a Bubble Shield and probably less thinking in a non-******** implementation of a Bubble Shield.

If you stick the the right geometry, you can absolutely out-play a rocket.  Many times i have baited a rocket player to try to shoot up at a ledge or ramp and taken them down.  There is at least some counterplay with rockets.  There really is none with equipment.

 

The other detriment to equipment is that most of them aren't used to make something happen in the way that rockets are.  They are used as "oh shit" buttons to keep things from happening and artificially stall the game.  Moving equipment around or making their spawn times different doesn't fix this fundamental issue.  I'm not against the addition of equipment per se, i just have yet to see an idea proposed for how they could be changed that has made me go "oh yeah that actually sounds good".

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If you stick the the right geometry, you can absolutely out-play a rocket.  Many times i have baited a rocket player to try to shoot up at a ledge or ramp and taken them down.  There is at least some counterplay with rockets.  There really is none with equipment.

 

The other detriment to equipment is that most of them aren't used to make something happen in the way that rockets are.  They are used as "oh shit" buttons to keep things from happening and artificially stall the game.  Moving equipment around or making their spawn times different doesn't fix this fundamental issue.  I'm not against the addition of equipment per se, i just have yet to see an idea proposed for how they could be changed that has made me go "oh yeah that actually sounds good".

 

The bubble shield on Standoff was crucial to many, MANY flag runs since it enabled you time to get into a vehicle without being melted by shots.

 

As for the bubble shield, its implementation was poor but it was not a poor idea.  The fact that shooting the shield did not make it dissipate as you can do with basically any Covey shield (or the drop shield, a directional-only shield which people COMPLETELY forget existed because it wasn't on any of the fucking maps) was a huge failure in design.

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The bubble shield on Standoff was crucial to many, MANY flag runs since it enabled you time to get into a vehicle without being melted by shots.

 

As for the bubble shield, its implementation was poor but it was not a poor idea.  The fact that shooting the shield did not make it dissipate as you can do with basically any Covey shield (or the drop shield, a directional-only shield which people COMPLETELY forget existed because it wasn't on any of the fucking maps) was a huge failure in design.

 

The directional shield is where it's at. that along with the grav lift were 2 pieces of equipment I thought were actually pretty cool and could have been used in comp. if the power drain didn't have a radius of 100m it probably could have been a solid power weapon as well.

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From my limited understanding nearly all of those issues sprouted from aggressive deadlines and not necessarily interference in development and design decisions. Which I understand, when you make a deal with a publisher it's because they're swallowing a loss for you to give you the opportunity to make them their money back. I've never had a problem with aggressive deadlines coming from publishers nor do I think they're evil for holding developers to it. That being said this is coming from someone who's never worked under Microsoft, yet.

 

Shadowrun was first designed to be a RPG shooter with a campaign. Then the art style was scrapped, then they changed the engine to Halo's when M$ wanted it to be a competitive shooter. Then, they asked FASA to not to make a console game and instead make it a PC game that had to be rushed to ship with Vista. It was apparently FASA's idea to not scrap the console and instead make it cross platform. Not saying the game would have been a wide success if M$ didn't step in but I can't say any of their influence helped those developers.

 

 

You act like the Rocket is different. If I hear someone close behind me I can do a 180 and almost definitely kill them. Rockets take almost no skill to use qnd if someone is having difficulty with them they're probably thumbless. It takes just as little skill as a Bubble Shield and probably less thinking in a non-******** implementation of a Bubble Shield.

 

 

I do act like they are different because I choose to compare them past a point where they are items that are on map pick ups on set timers. I agree they are the same there but if thats where we draw the line than this discussion is rather pointless. Again I cited Halo CE as an example because I think the rockets work best there, even though there is a "180" glitch that prevents you from turning and shooting that dislike. Rockets are more balanced in that game compared to other versions of Halo.

 

If you panic and look at the ground and shoot a rocket, you can die. If you panic and look at the ground and throw a bubble shield you get a protective shield that allows you to live. The trip mine might be a better comparisons since it's an explosive, but I don't think you are looking into the differences deeply enough if you feel they are 1 to 1 identical.

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Shadowrun was first designed to be a RPG shooter with a campaign. Then the art style was scrapped, then they changed the engine to Halo's when M$ wanted it to be a competitive shooter. Then, they asked FASA to not to make a console game and instead make it a PC game that had to be rushed to ship with Vista. It was apparently FASA's idea to not scrap the console and instead make it cross platform. Not saying the game would have been a wide success if M$ didn't step in but I can't say any of their influence helped those developers.

 

 

 

 

I do act like they are different because I choose to compare them past a point where they are items that are on map pick ups on set timers. I agree they are the same there but if thats where we draw the line than this discussion is rather pointless. Again I cited Halo CE as an example because I think the rockets work best there, even though there is a "180" glitch that prevents you from turning and shooting that dislike. Rockets are more balanced in that game compared to other versions of Halo.

 

If you panic and look at the ground and shoot a rocket, you can die. If you panic and look at the ground and throw a bubble shield you get a protective shield that allows you to live. The trip mine might be a better comparisons since it's an explosive, but I don't think you are looking into the differences deeply enough if you feel they are 1 to 1 identical.

I wasn't aware of that.  I stand corrected.

 

 

That being said, they seem like they're much less hands on nowadays from my brief experience working with them.

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Really pisspoor wording on my part. I know they haven't gotten rid of the hip fire, but in all Halo's (I think, Reach and 4 are a bit fuzzy to me) up to this point, certain weapons (I think everything that wasn't ranged) just flat out couldn't zoom in and were defaulted to hip firing just aiming with the joystick and shooting. I'm so unqualified to speak on what is and isn't a problem in this game (because I haven't played it much since 2016, not counting Evolved settings a few times), but I just feel like they continue to add little things that just add nothing to the game. Switching up the aiming mechanics of weapons (not to be confused with the horseshit aiming in general) is just such a random thing to add to the game to make it more similar to other leading console shooters that have ADS and it realistically brings nothing to the game (in my opinion). 

 

I think overall my problem is with the visual, but also just the fact that it exists outside of the scoped weapons. I understand the immersion and the realism of every weapon having ADS, that's the reality of firearms, but I prefer the method of classic Halo where ranged weapons (H1 pistol, all snipers obviously, BR, etc.) are the weapons that you zoom in on. It's just a personal preference. I just never understood 343's incessant need to differentiate themselves with the naming scheme and insisting it isn't ADS when it clearly is ADS. They rip off enough from other FPS console games, why would they feel the need to make a thing out of that?

 

Yes, they did change things for the sake of bringing the game to masses, hurting the core along the way, no arguing about that. Hopefully they can see by now  that most of those changes not only didn't please the crowds, but increased the hunger for pure classic experience. I don't expect them to roll back to Halo CE, but I hope for game stripped down of many useless, self-centered abilities. 

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I wasn't aware of that.  I stand corrected.

 

 

That being said, they seem like they're much less hands on nowadays from my brief experience working with them.

 

 

I do agree with that now and really only know of some bad experiences that basically lead up to whatever point in time Microsoft stopped charging indy dev to patch their game on the Arcade. That was the last major thing I remember devs being displeased with.

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The directional shield is where it's at. that along with the grav lift were 2 pieces of equipment I thought were actually pretty cool and could have been used in comp. if the power drain didn't have a radius of 100m it probably could have been a solid power weapon as well.

The power drain is more along the lines of how i want Splinters to work but obviously with a smaller radius. Bounce up and hang in the air like splinters do, but basically project a 3 meter radius or so ball of EMP.  Its funny because for all the shit that Halo 4 did wrong, the AR and Pulse Grenade would be better than their current counterparts.  The problem with the old pulse grenade was that when it was expanded it was too easy to just charge through, so they overcompensated and made the Splinter nades insta-kill.

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The power drain is more along the lines of how i want Splinters to work but obviously with a smaller radius. Bounce up and hang in the air like splinters do, but basically project a 3 meter radius or so ball of EMP.  Its funny because for all the shit that Halo 4 did wrong, the AR and Pulse Grenade would be better than their current counterparts.  The problem with the old pulse grenade was that when it was expanded it was too easy to just charge through, so they overcompensated and made the Splinter nades insta-kill.

 

 

Halo 4 Pulse Grenades were so nice

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Halo 4 Pulse Grenades were so nice

 

They were pretty shit; they were basically just a melee weapon (LT+Melee = instagib)

 

Visually they looked like they were power drains, but that wasn't how they worked.

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They were pretty shit; they were basically just a melee weapon (LT+Melee = instagib)

 

Visually they looked like they were power drains, but that wasn't how they worked.

Lol if they just made them work like they looked like they worked, they would have been fine.

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If you stick the the right geometry, you can absolutely out-play a rocket. Many times i have baited a rocket player to try to shoot up at a ledge or ramp and taken them down. There is at least some counterplay with rockets. There really is none with equipment.

You can outplay a Bubble Shield too.

The other detriment to equipment is that most of them aren't used to make something happen in the way that rockets are. They are used as "oh shit" buttons to keep things from happening and artificially stall the game. Moving equipment around or making their spawn times different doesn't fix this fundamental issue. I'm not against the addition of equipment per se, i just have yet to see an idea proposed for how they could be changed that has made me go "oh yeah that actually sounds good".

Bubble Shield can not be "oh shit" button as Tiberius pointed out. Gravity lift and Trip mine are almost never "oh shit" buttons. A Jetpack wouldn't be an "oh shit button. A regenerator could be used in KotH when you know the other team is about to push.

 

I do act like they are different because I choose to compare them past a point where they are items that are on map pick ups on set timers. I agree they are the same there but if thats where we draw the line than this discussion is rather pointless. Again I cited Halo CE as an example because I think the rockets work best there, even though there is a "180" glitch that prevents you from turning and shooting that dislike. Rockets are more balanced in that game compared to other versions of Halo.

 

If you panic and look at the ground and shoot a rocket, you can die. If you panic and look at the ground and throw a bubble shield you get a protective shield that allows you to live. The trip mine might be a better comparisons since it's an explosive, but I don't think you are looking into the differences deeply enough if you feel they are 1 to 1 identical.

So you pick the one Halo where power weapons are semi-contestable and best implemented but you also pick what we both can agree is the worst possible way they could've implemented equipment. In a every Halo besides CE Rockets are a "get a free kill" card where you have to seriously fuck up to not get a kill. You're ignoring examples of equipment being used to add strategical depth and focusing on how noobs used it. Stop cherry picking.

 

In a properly implemented version the person with it would probably not waste it as a personal shield because it would spawn much less frequently. They would alsp deserve it because they fought the enemy team for it, had a better setup, and won.

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A regenerator

 

Regen was basically useless in high level BTB since team shot would fucking destroy you.

 

 

 

As for the Bubble Shield, there were a few things that could easily be overlooked (but I'm going to go ahead and drop a disclaimer: I think the Bubble Shield was poorly designed and a bad overall feature.)

  • The Bubble Shield could be forced to move by other equipment.  Most people knew about Grav Lifting a bubble off people, but few knew you could smack it with a Power Drain or other ball (radar jammer/flares got removed due to jump abuse)
  • The Bubble Shield could also be used against the person, in the case of them throwing it in open space, since it could be used to allow you to reposition aggressively while blocking the shots of that person's teammate (put the entirety of the bubble between you and the enemy).
  • In some cases, throwing a bubble shield would give away one of two possible bits of information: "I have no help" or "I have a shotgun" -- so occasionally you could know to abandon that player and focus on your numbers elsewhere.

The Bubble Shield was still shit, but a lot of these things about it went underused or ignored.

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Regen was basically useless in high level BTB since team shot would fucking destroy you.

If you have that many people trying to kill you may have lost the battle but you definitely won the war.
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You can outplay a Bubble Shield too.

Bubble Shield can not be "oh shit" button as Tiberius pointed out. Gravity lift and Trip mine are almost never "oh shit" buttons. A Jetpack wouldn't be an "oh shit button. A regenerator could be used in KotH when you know the other team is about to push.

Grav lift is fine

 

Trip mine is totally an "oh shit" item.  they're so easy to avoid unless they are dropped right on your ass, often killing the person who dropped them.

Jetpack is gimmicky nonsense

Regen is ABSOLUTELY 100% an "Oh shit" button item.  One offensive use case in one game type that will only delay your death by a couple seconds if the other team has any kind of teamshot is not a compelling argument.

How do you "Outplay" a bubble shield? Happen to have shotty or charge in and sticky-suicide?  There aren't "outplays" for the bubble shield, just rush all-ins.

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7wbMfu.gif

 

The question on everybody's mind... who was the 1 millionth post??

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Grav lift is fine

 

Trip mine is totally an "oh shit" item.  they're so easy to avoid unless they are dropped right on your ass, often killing the person who dropped them.

Jetpack is gimmicky nonsense

Regen is ABSOLUTELY 100% an "Oh shit" button item.  One offensive use case in one game type that will only delay your death by a couple seconds if the other team has any kind of teamshot is not a compelling argument.

How do you "Outplay" a bubble shield? Happen to have shotty or charge in and sticky-suicide?  There aren't "outplays" for the bubble shield, just rush all-ins.

 

Not going to lie... I loved the jetpack in Halo Reach.

 

I think give it a fuel meter and only allow for like 3 full "lifts" and you have a solid piece of equipment.

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Not going to lie... I loved the jetpack in Halo Reach.

 

I think give it a fuel meter and only allow for like 3 full "lifts" and you have a solid piece of equipment.

 

I just hate the way that Jetpack basically makes map geometry meaningless.

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I just hate the way that Jetpack basically makes map geometry meaningless.

Yea, I think with a fuel meter it would stop it from being abused for super long periods of time like in halo reach.

 

I'm thinking having it on a 2 min timer in a central location instead of it being a gimmie power up on each side of a map would make a world of difference as well.

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I got a $20 Wal-Mart gift card for being the 1 millionth visitor. Awesome of saucey and cyren to add the pop up giveaways to the site!!

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