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CyReN

Halo World Championship 2018 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Well, there's CS:GO... Except they never completely changed the formula for no reason and it's the biggest competitive FPS in the world. Makes you wonder where Halo could be if its developers hadn't been so interested in trend-chasing and change for the sake of change.

CS is an interesting one.

 

1.6 is still considered to be the best, source was a bit wonky and after some pretty well thought out updates they’ve grown GO into one of the biggest esports in history.

 

Through all of it though they didn’t suffer from the same developmental disaster as Halo. No thoughts of adding mechanics that aren’t conducive to the game from fear of losing out to the “flavour of the month” in game design.

 

Obviously that last sentiment is just my thought but I’m honestly surprised after Halo 4 no one raised concern with continuing down this path of trying to make mechanics that don’t make sense (from a gameplay perspective not lore) in a Halo game work.

 

Accidental mobile neg.

I got you.
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More proof that LGS is a NavG burner account designed to get plus rep

I feel honored, NAVG is the greatest to ever do it.

 

It’s “iGS” btw

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CS is an interesting one.

 

1.6 is still considered to be the best, source was a bit wonky and after some pretty well thought out updates they’ve grown GO into one of the biggest esports in history.

 

Through all of it though they didn’t suffer from the same developmental disaster as Halo. No thoughts of adding mechanics that aren’t conducive to the game from fear of losing out to the “flavour of the month” in game design.

 

Obviously that last sentiment is just my thought but I’m honestly surprised after Halo 4 no one raised concern with continuing down this path of trying to make mechanics that don’t make sense (from a gameplay perspective not lore) in a Halo game work.

 

I got you.

I don’t even know if 1.6 is the best anymore. Sure some of the mechanics are better on paper and some of the maps work better but a lot of fond memories for that game are bolstered by the quirks of both the game and time period.

 

The fact 1.6 outlasted Source (2004 release) in every metric up until it’s eventual death in 2012 is the real story. Source was basically inferior in every way so really why change games? It stands as a testament to not settling for mediocrity.

 

Unfortunately for Halo that potential time for not settling is long gone but hindsight is 20/20.

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Oh hey Frank, if I send you a MLG shirt will you please cover yourself in your avatar?

Is there no more MLG shop? I have been dying to get my hands on a t-shirt or something. I used to have a sweatshirt and t-shit back in the Halo 2 heyday, but now? I want to go back to my roots and support! Did I miss the shop? Is it there and I am blind? Can't wait for MLG Dallas this coming week either! 

 

Even when i disagree with doc (i do think our current system is "better" at providing a true rank than 1-50), its hard not to be persuaded when he speaks lol.

 

If they went back to 1-50, but had a proper way to distinguish the players that were actually 50+, i would be ok with that.

I think our current system is still broken as hell. The idea behind it is great. I think it's the correct theory - placement matches put you into your true rank, and then have an ELO system (that works) to climb the ladder from wherever you are to higher up or lower etc. I think that was something the original Halo 2 ranking system got right - advancing or retracting based on the outcome of the games and as an accessory, on your individual performance in said game. I also loved how Bungie had it on their site so you could check your rank and see your progress towards the next level. I liked it in Black Ops 2 how wherever you were placed there was a number associated with your rank level so you knew were you stood within that level i.e. you could be like Silver Tier 2 #1232 and know that you have to climb up through those numbers to get to Silver Tier 3 or whatever. I don't know, I felt like those two ranking systems did a lot right. I think the CSGO ranking system is great too. And Halo 3. Other than that I haven't really seen a great one - but I also don't play DOTA or LoL or OW. I know OW is supposed to have a good system too. 

 

All about that LTC lyfe m9

Don't forget VTC boi. 

 

Is it confirmed that next years CoD will also be BOTG? Maybe WW2 was just fan service and they will go back straight to jetpacks and wall running in 2018 and onward.

Don't think it's been confirmed, but if they go back to the advanced movement the series is gonna have a pretty big meltdown. It's clear that the majority of pro players dislike the movement system and apparently so do most fans (dislike ratio on the IW trailer as evidence).

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If they go back to jetpacks next year I can't wait to see the dislike ratio on the trailer. 

 

 

Don't think it's been confirmed, but if they go back to the advanced movement the series is gonna have a pretty big meltdown. It's clear that the majority of pro players dislike the movement system and apparently so do most fans (dislike ratio on the IW trailer as evidence).

 

It's of course the last thing I want, but I can definitely see them flip flopping and going back to advanced movement. Don't forget that they removed death streaks and martyrdom for Black Ops 1 only for them to make a return in MW3. Or how they promised BO3 was going to have "cosmetic" microtransaction only, which was of course a lie. And to top it off they remade CoD4, charged 15$ for the DLC again and then added new weapons and put them behind the RNG paywall. I'll believe it when I see it I guess.

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I would fucking love a Halo Podcast. All the E-Sports pods I've found are shitty other than Richard Lewis. Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough. 

Fuck Richard lewis. I'd rather play Halo 4 competitively then ever hear from him again.

 

Weird, since Destiny and Destiny 2 both look to me like games completely devoid of heart and soul beyond the visuals.

Amen. Funny how this forum was mad hyping Destiny 2 though and it fucking bombed just as bad as the first in being devoid of content and doing pretty much anything right.

 

 think that was something the original Halo 2 ranking system got right - advancing or retracting based on the outcome of the games and as an accessory, on your individual performance in said game.

In placing, sure take into account performance. But IMO after you are ranked, making stats matter? Fuck no. That just leads to people being assholes.

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Like or hate Bungie's games, you can't deny that they put their hearts and souls into them.

Perhaps, but then I remember things like the invincible elite neck that I think is still in Halo 3 to this day and I wonder.

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Fuck Richard lewis. I'd rather play Halo 4 competitively then ever hear from him again.

I always wondered who he choked.
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All this talk about competitive halo and 343 listening is just PR. When their user researchers at M$ put their "target demographic" players into a lab, those players will giddily clap for armor abilities and extra crap. That's what happens when you can only observe and analyze different people playing your game for 2-6 hours only. That's the data they'll be basing the core of Halo on. It's how basically every company does it.

 

I'm confident the polls on here and Twitter are no where close to the data they get in their labs, and if you think they'll disregard their lab data, you don't know Microsoft.

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I always wondered who he choked.

Doesn't take physical violence for me to dislike him, though that's also up there as to why I dislike him.

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of all the things to complain about in H5, I'm continually amazed that the ranking system is one of them ... it's just the 1-50 system with different labels (where you can actually tell which 50s are higher than Diamond 3, thanks to CSR). let's maybe focus our energy on actual problems with H5

The isssue is the placement matches. No one likes being 80% complete with the playlist after 10 games. It was even more broken at launch where people were getting champ in 10 games. There’s no grind with H5 system, no improvement potential, and no fun with what little effort you put in gets erased in a month or two.

 

It’s just a copy and paste from RTS games which are single player games and it doesn’t pair well with a team shooter. Nothing like doing your 10 placement matches and having afk teammates or teammates who quit and have that held against you in placement. The ranking system in H5 IS a problem and is overall inferior to H3’s system.

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A big problem is the lack of party restrictions and the low population, resulting in tons of lopsided matches. This in turndanleads people to believe that the ranking system sucks when in reality the MM is the real enemy.

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Obviously that last sentiment is just my thought but I’m honestly surprised after Halo 4 no one raised concern with continuing down this path of trying to make mechanics that don’t make sense (from a gameplay perspective not lore) in a Halo game work.

 

If you mean the devs yeah I have no idea how they didn't slam on the brakes after Reach much less H4. If you mean the players though the comp community has been collectively losing its shit since bloom and AAs were first seen in the beta. More than anything I'm surprised at the ego it takes as a collective studio to keep pushing this bullshit and saying its better. Just about everyone to play the series will tell you bungie did it far better and that 343 needs to slow down and just make a basic Halo game that anyone actually wants to play before they try to add anything as if they know what they're doing

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of all the things to complain about in H5, I'm continually amazed that the ranking system is one of them ... it's just the 1-50 system with different labels (where you can actually tell which 50s are higher than Diamond 3, thanks to CSR).  let's maybe focus our energy on actual problems with H5

 

Its one of those things where if people prefer that type of visual representation of rank, throw them a bone and let them have it.  BUT you still have to have placement matches.

 

The isssue is the placement matches. No one likes being 80% complete with the playlist after 10 games. It was even more broken at launch where people were getting champ in 10 games. There’s no grind with H5 system, no improvement potential, and no fun with what little effort you put in gets erased in a month or two.

 

It’s just a copy and paste from RTS games which are single player games and it doesn’t pair well with a team shooter. Nothing like doing your 10 placement matches and having afk teammates or teammates who quit and have that held against you in placement. The ranking system in H5 IS a problem and is overall inferior to H3’s system.

 

What you're describing isn't a ranking system, its a progression system.  The reason that people liked the start-from-the-bottom ranking of Halo 3 was frankly because they liked to stomp on lesser players on their way up and see how fast they could get to 50.  Well that's no fun for the people getting stomped.  The point of a ranking system is to say 1) here is your relative skill level and 2) here are opponents that will give you a good game.

 

A proper per-playlist progression system is needed, but placement matches to accelerate ranking MUST be used in any ranking system going forward, regardless of the visual representation of said rank.

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All this talk about competitive halo and 343 listening is just PR. When their user researchers at M$ put their "target demographic" players into a lab, those players will giddily clap for armor abilities and extra crap. That's what happens when you can only observe and analyze different people playing your game for 2-6 hours only. That's the data they'll be basing the core of Halo on. It's how basically every company does it.

 

I'm confident the polls on here and Twitter are no where close to the data they get in their labs, and if you think they'll disregard their lab data, you don't know Microsoft.

 

Welp I really hope this is not true again  :mj:

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I'm not a fan of Halo 5's match-making experience, but the point of a ranking system is not to be a "grind." It's not a progression system, which seems to be what a lot of people miss from the 1-50 system. You're not "80% complete" when you place. It's a tool for creating more even matches. Good placement systems get players to more even matches quicker, which is good. There is no reason high level squads should need to stomp their way through low rank players to get to where they should have been to start with. If you're an "Onyx" level player, grinding through players way worse than you is not creating room for "improvement." It's basically just pub-stomping and stat-padding. The "improvement potential" is in the 200 Champion spots per season.

 

​That said, there are plenty of issues with the system. At launch, you couldn't fall out of a division once you placed there (very unpleasant for people who placed above their actual skill level). Lack of party restrictions/solo queue means that ranks are often more dependent on having a team than being good. MMR has been frequently mismatched with CSR, causing a lot of extremely uneven matches in terms of visible rank, while making it very difficult to actually achieve the visible rank of the players you face until placements next season (particularly if you placed lower and improved in solo queue). And, of course, as the population gets worse, the quality of the rank matching does as well.

 

None of these problems have to do with placement matches or lack of pseudo-social rank grind. The concept of Halo 5's ranking system is not the problem. It's the execution.

I admire the sentiment but it doesn’t work in practice that’s my main issue I have with it. Placements aren’t accurate due to the number of variables that the player does not have control over. When the majority of placements are inaccurate then it throws the whole system off. People are being mismatched from the beginning of the games life cycle and it only gets worse throughout the games life cycle.

 

Ranks have only gotten worse for reasons that are certainly debatable but you can’t entirely rule out the inherent design decision in the system. The idea on paper is good but in practice it leaves a lot of room for improvement. I also disagree with the notion that climbing the ranks is pub stomping. All of us here didn’t start our halo careers being 45-50 class of players. Most of us had to slowly grind our way to it. We all remember getting that first 50, we remember the game type, map, and the teammates we had. There’s something inherently satisfying climbing the ranks and it is just gone from the H5 experience. The ranks are reset before you can blink and you’re right back where you started from.

 

We can agree to disagree on the competitive merits of the placements and resets but the actually experience sitting down and getting ranked in H5 leaves a lot to be desired.

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