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Mib2347

I have devised a way to demonstrate heavy aim

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Frankly, this is more indicative of Beyond's general bias against 343 than any bias I have for them.

 

The fact that you're railing against a critical analysis of the op's methods just shows your confirmation bias.

 

No it doesn't. Again, you didn't actually read what I wrote did you? You just reflexively downvoted.

 

 

This method just as likely shows that H5 has varying rumble patterns as it does aiming issues.

 

Also heavy aim is likely caused by input lag, this is not a demonstration of input lag.

Heavy aim cant be just input lag. The issue is not just a delayed response to inputs. That would feel like your reticle doesn't move at all when prompted, then it jumps to the desired location after some delay. It would also mean that your reticle would keep moving after you returned your stick to its neutral position. Neither of these things happen with heavy aim.

 

With heavy aim, there is an immediate response to your input (the reticle instantly begins moving in the desired direction) but it takes forever getting to the desired location. Its an immediate, but incorrect/incomplete response to the input.

 

Its as if the cpu is not working with the entirety of the signal being sent to it or is improperly assessing the signal.

 

Sure, this method may not currently be perfect due to uncertainty regarding the rumble signals, but it is exactly the approach that 343 should be taking to replicate the issue. They probably have everything they need inhouse to take complete control over the input and measure the accuracy of the response.

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Setting you're display to 720p wouldn't keep the h5 engine from trying to generate a native 1080p image.

this ... I meant within the engine itself, like how the beta was (?), might solve the problem. either way H6 on Scorpio should theoretically clear up this issue

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Setting you're display to 720p wouldn't keep the h5 engine from trying to generate a native 1080p image.

Do we know for sure that this is true? Where does this info come from? I'm not talking about setting my monitor to 720p but the Xbox output signal to 720p.

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Do we know for sure that this is true? Where does this info come from? I'm not talking about setting my monitor to 720p but the Xbox output signal to 720p.

I'm too lazy for a source... but I had the same idea a while back and remember being shown proof that the xbox output signal does not limit the engine.

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Do we know for sure that this is true? Where does this info come from? I'm not talking about setting my monitor to 720p but the Xbox output signal to 720p.

Same thing happens with Breath of the Wild on the Switch. Changing the output settings just downscales the image that is being rendered at a higher resolution.

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That's quite interesting. I will try that tonight hopefully as just like you've said it's not difficult.

 

Yeah, when the update came out that "improved input delay" it seemed to have an effect on every input, not just aiming.

 

Can anyone verify whether party chat uses tcp or udp?

 

I guess I would assume UDP.  You shouldn't need any kind of ack for voice chat.  Why do you ask?

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Yeah, when the update came out that "improved input delay" it seemed to have an effect on every input, not just aiming.

 

 

I guess I would assume UDP.  You shouldn't need any kind of ack for voice chat.  Why do you ask?

 

UDP is what I was leaning towards as well. I might as well mention this experience to pick you brain though. Here is the scenario. (sorry this is long)

 

Recently, I was living in myrtle beach, SC. Whenever I had locals in my party chat, whether I was host or not, there would be no effect. I have a couple friends living in north western florida. When they joined the party, the aim would get heavy. My assumption was that the party chat app was bogging down the CPU. I was tired of the heavy aim so I played about 5 days without party chat solo queuing. The aim was substantially better. It was so much better that I disregarded the party chat and thought 343 had rolled out an update or was running tests to improve the aim.

 

Very recently, I moved to Atlanta, GA. I continued solo queuing without issue. I decided to invite my friends from Tallahassee to a party chat. No difference was made to the aim. I invited my friends from myrtle beach and the aim became heavy. I tried multiple combinations and the result was the same. I had an idea. I had an outlier to throw into the mix. I have a friend who has been having connections problems for two or so months now. After 4 pm his speeds drop from 300 down 75 up to .01 to 2 mbits down and .01 upload. I had him hop on and join my voice party mid game. The aiming was absolutely impossible. He left and it was fine. I had another friend host the party and myself and the lagger joined. Again. The aiming became impossible.

 

So here is the point of all of this. If by chance party chat ended up using tcp, Here are my thoughts

 

 

  1. With a limited connection, the receive window would be smaller. As a result Acks would be required far more often. If the client is waiting for acknowledgement so frequently, and controller input didn’t have priority in the cpu (which I don’t see how it would) that would create problems.

     

  2. Throughput is determined by RTT and the receive window. If the CPU is bogged down and not processing packets fast enough flow control will kick in. As a result, the same problem occurs if player input doesn’t have priority.

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UDP is what I was leaning towards as well. I might as well mention this experience to pick you brain though. Here is the scenario. (sorry this is long)

 

Recently, I was living in myrtle beach, SC. Whenever I had locals in my party chat, whether I was host or not, there would be no effect. I have a couple friends living in north western florida. When they joined the party, the aim would get heavy. My assumption was that the party chat app was bogging down the CPU. I was tired of the heavy aim so I played about 5 days without party chat solo queuing. The aim was substantially better. It was so much better that I disregarded the party chat and thought 343 had rolled out an update or was running tests to improve the aim.

 

Very recently, I moved to Atlanta, GA. I continued solo queuing without issue. I decided to invite my friends from Tallahassee to a party chat. No difference was made to the aim. I invited my friends from myrtle beach and the aim became heavy. I tried multiple combinations and the result was the same. I had an idea. I had an outlier to throw into the mix. I have a friend who has been having connections problems for two or so months now. After 4 pm his speeds drop from 300 down 75 up to .01 to 2 mbits down and .01 upload. I had him hop on and join my voice party mid game. The aiming was absolutely impossible. He left and it was fine. I had another friend host the party and myself and the lagger joined. Again. The aiming became impossible.

 

So here is the point of all of this. If by chance party chat ended up using tcp, Here are my thoughts

 

 

  1. With a limited connection, the receive window would be smaller. As a result Acks would be required far more often. If the client is waiting for acknowledgement so frequently, and controller input didn’t have priority in the cpu (which I don’t see how it would) that would create problems.

     

  2. Throughput is determined by RTT and the receive window. If the CPU is bogged down and not processing packets fast enough flow control will kick in. As a result, the same problem occurs if player input doesn’t have priority.

 

 

What makes the most sense to me would be if the actual voice data was being transferred via UDP, but the channel was staying connected via TCP.  It would need acks to make sure that whomever joined the channel was still there, even if they weren't transmitting any voice data at the time. The computational requirements for that should be very small though.

 

This is an interesting though and workaround to alleviate the issue, but all these things keep leading me back to the same question:

Why does any of this matter?  If i play Gears or Destiny or CoD and i'm in voice chat there is no effect on the performance of the game, aiming or otherwise.  Why Halo?  Is the game running so close to the limits of the hardware that any extra stress causes problems like this?  And if there are problems, why does it seem to hit the aiming first? Is it so low priority?  Is the game engine so dependent on tick rate and physics calculations that even something as fundamental as aiming get compromised?

 

Its quite frustrating to have had such aiming issues for so long when no other games seems to have this and 343 doesn't seem to know what it is either.

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So I've been trying to get the 360 controller thing to work and I just couldn't get it to close the circuit. Mostly because I don't actually know what I'm doing.

 

automatousbeing do you know how I could get the 360 vibration to trigger the relay and short the thumbstick potentiometer?

 

I assumed that all I had to do was wire up the rumble leads from the 360 in place of the Xbox one ones. This didn't work.

 

I also tried a bunch of other stuff but I didn't get it right. Any ideas?

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What makes the most sense to me would be if the actual voice data was being transferred via UDP, but the channel was staying connected via TCP.  It would need acks to make sure that whomever joined the channel was still there, even if they weren't transmitting any voice data at the time. The computational requirements for that should be very small though.

 

This is an interesting though and workaround to alleviate the issue, but all these things keep leading me back to the same question:

Why does any of this matter?  If i play Gears or Destiny or CoD and i'm in voice chat there is no effect on the performance of the game, aiming or otherwise.  Why Halo?  Is the game running so close to the limits of the hardware that any extra stress causes problems like this?  And if there are problems, why does it seem to hit the aiming first? Is it so low priority?  Is the game engine so dependent on tick rate and physics calculations that even something as fundamental as aiming get compromised?

 

Its quite frustrating to have had such aiming issues for so long when no other games seems to have this and 343 doesn't seem to know what it is either.

My numbers will coincide with your paragraph separation. Before I reply, let me say I just had the most coincidental strain of events. After I posted, my internet went out. There were tornados all around my area and one almost touched ground directly above my house. Because of this, I went to go clean a guest bedroom and do something productive. A wasp was in there. I killed the wasp and knocked over a book in the process. It was a routing and switching book. When it fell, it opened to the pages that talked about flow control, ack's, and buffers. Freaky stuff.

 

1. That is the most probable configuration I think. When someone leaves it takes a while for them to leave the party. A generous timeout perhaps?

 

2. As for shooters I've only played destiny enough on the xbone to comment. I don't remember anything being wrong with the aiming. The game does run at 30 frames though. I need to correct myself on my previous post. I was wrong about my friend's download speed dropping. His problems are with upload and latency only. My other locals have a good enough upload to where it shouldn't affect anything. That being said what does latency have a direct effect on in TCP? I'm trying to think of how it could affect BDP, throughput, Segment size, and flow control (or lack thereof) could impact CPU usage. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it and putting it all together.

 

Maybe halo does push the xbone to its edges. I think if we need to focus on the differences between this game and other games and figure out how all these differences are related. (If they are) CPU usage, Dynamic frame rate, Observers making a difference, latency. And a huge one, why is warzone better? I'm confident this can be figured out with enough effort. There are certainly enough competent people here to carry out the task.

 

3. No doubt. I think many people will be waiting to buy halo 6 as a result of this.

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Do we know for sure that this is true? Where does this info come from? I'm not talking about setting my monitor to 720p but the Xbox output signal to 720p.

Its true, but i don't have a source. I read it most recently during the discussion surrounding the xbox one s launch

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Really awesome work and great research. people can chalk a lot of complaining about this game up to "preference" or whatever and sweep it under the rug (which is bullshit). It's nice to see some empirically supported evidence that this game is just not constructed/updated properly. 

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What makes the most sense to me would be if the actual voice data was being transferred via UDP, but the channel was staying connected via TCP. It would need acks to make sure that whomever joined the channel was still there, even if they weren't transmitting any voice data at the time. The computational requirements for that should be very small though.

 

This is an interesting though and workaround to alleviate the issue, but all these things keep leading me back to the same question:

Why does any of this matter? If i play Gears or Destiny or CoD and i'm in voice chat there is no effect on the performance of the game, aiming or otherwise. Why Halo? Is the game running so close to the limits of the hardware that any extra stress causes problems like this? And if there are problems, why does it seem to hit the aiming first? Is it so low priority? Is the game engine so dependent on tick rate and physics calculations that even something as fundamental as aiming get compromised?

 

Its quite frustrating to have had such aiming issues for so long when no other games seems to have this and 343 doesn't seem to know what it is either.

I'm loving that everyone is coming together to try and solve this riddle. It's just a shame it has to be the community and not the game's creators.

 

I can't add much to the conversation other than near the start of destiny, party chat would most certainly cause the game to lag (?) at least whilst raiding with five others.

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So I've been trying to get the 360 controller thing to work and I just couldn't get it to close the circuit. Mostly because I don't actually know what I'm doing.

 

automatousbeing do you know how I could get the 360 vibration to trigger the relay and short the thumbstick potentiometer?

 

I assumed that all I had to do was wire up the rumble leads from the 360 in place of the Xbox one ones. This didn't work.

 

I also tried a bunch of other stuff but I didn't get it right. Any ideas?

 

Well, I'm with you in regards to electronics, not an expert, just another hobbyist with enough knowledge to scrape through simple circuits, but few things you could try.

 

Do you have a multimeter?  If so, check a few things:

 

1.  Check the voltage levels that the Xbox One controller's rumble circuit is sending out.  I imagine you know this as it should match the relay you bought.  Also, check the voltage that the shorted joystick potentiometer circuit lets flow.  

2.  Now, check these same numbers on the 360.  Again, not an expert here, but there should be a few values you should be able to scrape from the relays data sheet.  Does it have minimum activation voltages?  Does it have minimum voltage it'll let flow?  My guess is that the 360 isn't flipping the relay, or the pot signal from the joystick is too weak for the relay and it's losing it on the circuit.  

 

It's been a long time since I've built anything with a relay (original Xbox internal DVD remote circuits anyone?), but I feel like I remember them making an audible *click* when they opened/closed, is that happening?

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Well, I'm with you in regards to electronics, not an expert, just another hobbyist with enough knowledge to scrape through simple circuits, but few things you could try.

 

Do you have a multimeter? If so, check a few things:

 

1. Check the voltage levels that the Xbox One controller's rumble circuit is sending out. I imagine you know this as it should match the relay you bought. Also, check the voltage that the shorted joystick potentiometer circuit lets flow.

2. Now, check these same numbers on the 360. Again, not an expert here, but there should be a few values you should be able to scrape from the relays data sheet. Does it have minimum activation voltages? Does it have minimum voltage it'll let flow? My guess is that the 360 isn't flipping the relay, or the pot signal from the joystick is too weak for the relay and it's losing it on the circuit.

 

It's been a long time since I've built anything with a relay (original Xbox internal DVD remote circuits anyone?), but I feel like I remember them making an audible *click* when they opened/closed, is that happening?

Yeah it definitely makes an audible click when I used it in my original set up on the Xbox one controller. Out of interest it tried it on the Xbox one controller with just the connections to the coil and not the com pin or the normally closed pin. The device didn't click.

 

I suspect that I've wired it up incorrectly or it's not meant to be triggered by an external circuit maybe? If it can be then I just don't know how yet.

 

I'll get out my multimeter and see what I can find. I might ask on r/electronics too as I'm sure plenty of knowledgeable people there can help. If not then what you find when you build your setup might be more helpful.

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Halo 5 just feels like I'm playing with VSync on every game.

V-Sync creates input lag, which Halo 5 has, but the aiming is even worse than just input lag.  

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People really think 343 would code in a variance in the rumble? That makes no sense whatsoever. 

Yeah who would code in random useless stuff at 343?

 

Okay I'm kidding but you're probably right it wouldn't make any sense to do that. Resolution scaling and incorrect adjustments to that was my personal theory since the Xbone struggles to run anything alongside H5 it would make sense that something goes wrong when things slow down and the Xbox starts trying to adjust resolution. Basically anything that makes the Xbox start to slow down seems to make H5 run like shit in a lot more ways than just aiming but that could be a totally separate issue from the aiming and people are conflating the two problems. 

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*snip*

 

I suspect that I've wired it up incorrectly or it's not meant to be triggered by an external circuit maybe? If it can be then I just don't know how yet.

 

*snip*

 

Might be that they need a common ground that is connected within the relay somehow?  /r/electronics is probably your best bet, you might see a post from me up there before I have my side up and running as well.

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People really think 343 would code in a variance in the rumble? That makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

This is literally what I've been thinking for the past 24 hours but I didn't post it because I felt like I was the only one who was thinking that.. Maybe it's just because I think like a programmer so I try to understand what people are talking about from a development perspective.. But I was starting to think I was nuts for a second.

 

It makes almost zero sense that a single shot precision weapon like the carbine would have a variance in the rumble simply because it's a more modern shooter. Not to mention that they would actually develop the capability to make to do that. Seems like something that would take a lot of wasted time.

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People really think 343 would code in a variance in the rumble? That makes no sense whatsoever.

It really doesnt make sense and is unlikely. But it's a sound idea to eliminate the uncertainty.

 

Wouldn't be the first time 343 done unnecessary things

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People really think 343 would code in a variance in the rumble? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Wasn't that kind of the purpose for impulse triggers or is this something different?

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