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CaptainCowboy

Why are people so against grenade hitmarkers?

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If a player wasn't physically seen, or heard from audio cues other than general walking, than that player shouldn't be found. Simple.

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I feel like there's a lot of second-order factors you're ignoring here though. A couple thoughts spring to mind:

 

1. First, I'm having trouble feeling sorry for Mr. Cave. If you had walked past cave into flag and then started getting shot in the back, you would be annoyed. If you try to push cave and then go 2 shots down to somebody coming out of basement who now has you cornered, you'd be annoyed. If you push cave to SMG-melee'd, you'd be SUPER annoyed. What is this guy doing in cave, why isn't he pushing out and making a play? It sounds like he's hiding around a tight corner to draw out one of those three exact situations. I'm happy he got punished for camping in one of the most naded spots on Earth. You checked cave to make sure nobody's making a weenie play, and you found out to your surprise that somebody actually was, so you get to easily punish them. It's like checking to make sure your Zerg opponent didn't 6 pool. It takes a little time out of your day, but the rewards are huge if you're right, and that's what makes it such a cheeky bad-manners play from the Zerg in the first place.

 

2. Even if you're actually in Cave for some legitimate reason and you get naded, you should immediately know that you're at high risk of having somebody fly from sneaky or snipe. You can and should communicate that to your teammates. If any of them are flag, BR, basement, maze, window, etc. they're going to be able to look and get free shots on the people pushing. Conversely, the would-be pushers know this, and so I don't think that it's quite as easy to mop up that kill as you suggest at high levels of play.

 

3. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say this scenario is indeed "bad". I can name a hundred scenarios that make almost any gameplay element look bad. The question is whether there are good ones to balance it out. The shotgun, for instance, certainly creates a lot of "lol." moments that don't do much for the pace of the game. But for every one of those, there's Rammy in yard getting a triple kill on people flying through garden or something. To wit, I can think of some great standoffs in the pro league where one of the players explicitly goes to a specific place, throws a specific nade to check a cheeky hiding spot, gets the hit markers, and then relays the callout to the team who gets an angle on the hider. Surely you agree that that's pretty cool?

This is a pretty terrible argument, IMO. You don't need grenade hitmarkers to push cave. If you suspect someone might be there trying to make a weenie play, you can pre-nade it, then push with the confidence that anyone who remains in there will be weak.

 

The game doesn't have to tell you he's there. But you can adequately prepare yourself for the possibility without having the certainty.

 

The guy on the receiving end also doesn't need the existence of hitarkers to predict that a push is incoming. If he has a brain, he can infer that whoever threw the grenade did so to soften any potential threat in the cave.

 

The idea that hitmarkers don't make it easy to mop up kills is pretty silly. you don't even have to expose yourself to push. You just throw another grenade or call someone to throw another grenade.

 

Finally, there's nothing cool about relaying to a teammate that you got hitmarkers. That's child's play. It would be much cooler if someone predicted where the enemy was hiding, told his teammate that he was nading it, and covered said teammate as he pushes it for the final kill (I.e. Tactical Flanking)

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I'm tempted to say your in-game Halo knowledge is rather limited.

 

I was tempted to say the same, but I refrained, because I argue the point, not the person. You should try it some time.

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I was tempted to say the same, but I refrained, because I argue the point, not the person. You should try it some time.

 

Tempted to say the same? Lol. There isn't a single Halo game that you own which you have more knowledge than me in. I can guarantee that fact and everyone on here that knows me personally from competing over the years will tell you the same. Furthermore, I don't care how good you are in the game. There are plenty of people on here that aren't very skilled in the game that can make well thought out and reasonable arguments. That wasn't what I was getting at. My point (and to be honest, I'm not surprised you didn't understand my point yet again) was that you have trouble associating one topic amongst several scenarios without having to be specifically told what they are. Hence, your in-game Halo knowledge has to be severely lacking because you struggle to understand how one concept can be applied amongst several scenarios. That is what I was referring to, not that you're bad in the game.

 

Look at your response to Beast's post (that Mhunterjr just made a response to). All of your responses are nothing but ad hoc, on-the-spot arguments. This is why people get flustered when you make your points. Not because we disagree with your opinion, but because your opinions are backed with nothing but on-the-spot arguments that have little to nothing to do with the subject matter.

 

I like how you literally quoted that one sentence out of all of the arguments and counter-points against yours. On top of that, it's very hypocritical that you "argue the point, not the person" when you're the first person in this thread to bring up someone's grammar (when there was literally nothing wrong with my grammar to begin with and refuse to cite where these supposed grammatical errors are).

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I love how we're hypothesizing how nade markers would work on Lockout, like we didn't play two seasons of HCS on Lockdown in H2A.

 

Spoiler: The nade markers were stupid there too.

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I love how we're hypothesizing how nade markers would work on Lockout, like we didn't play two seasons of HCS on Lockdown in H2A.

 

Spoiler: The nade markers were stupid there too.

 

You know what man.. I was so damn annoyed by this argument I have zero idea why I didn't think of this lol. Thank you!!

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Frag grenades that are similar to Halo 1's frag grenades and that have a lot of utility to them. > Grenade hit-markers.

 

My biggest issue with grenade hit-markers is very similar to one of my various issues with radar, I really dislike that it rewards players information about their opponent's whereabouts in an unskillful manner. Grenades doing damage to your opponent should be enough of a reward, IMO you shouldn't also be rewarded with information about your opponent's whereabouts for hitting your opponent with a grenade.

 
If you want grenades to be able to flush campers out of hiding a good way of achieving this is to have frag grenades do a decent amount of damage and have a decent blast radius similar to Halo 1's frag grenades. Of course the frag grenades would need to be balanced accordingly to compensate for their increased utility so a good way of balancing them is to make them not be able to be air-burst by gunfire or anything else and have them settle before exploding.
 
Anyways IMO the game by design should be discouraging player stagnation and incentivizing player movement. This is why I advocate for Halo 1's item spawn system to make a return to Halo 5 and future iterations of Halo. Frequent and quick static timers for power-ups and power weapons encourages player aggression and discourages player stagnation because it forces players to constantly contest their opponents for control of the power items.
 
As for sound cues while I recognize that sound cues are a crucial aspect of Halo, I also recognize that some sound cues can be detrimental to the competitive merit/validity of the game. Here's a list of sound cues that I'm personally against in Halo.
  • Sound cues that discourages players from traversing the map at the most optimal pace. For an example, footsteps are so loud in Halo 4 that “crab-walking” was an encouraged tactic when playing 1v1's.
  • Sound cues that discourages players from traversing crucial areas of a map. For an example the “clinky” sound on Damnation in Halo 1. Another example of this is the loud sound cue on red jump-up on Battle Creek in Halo 1.
  • Loud sound cues that can give away your position when you spawn especially if there is no available tactic to counter it. Just play Halo 1 on the MCC to get an idea of what I mean.
  • Loud sound cues that can give away your position when switching weapons especially if there is no available tactic that allows you to silently switch weapons. Just play Halo 1 on the MCC to get an idea of what I mean.
  • Loud sound cues that can give away your position when reloading weapons especially if there is no available tactic that allows you to silently reload your weapon. For an example, reloading rockets in Halo 1 MCC is very loud and can very easily give away your position.
 
I'm really glad that the creators of Halo 1 Final/NHE decided to optimize the game by removing the sound cues that were deemed detrimental to the competitive merit/validity of the game.

 

– In-Game Sounds Removed

Overshield Pickup, Camo Pickup, Health Pickup, Shield Charge. Shield Low, Shield Depleted, All Portal Sounds, Assault Rifle Pickup/Ready, Pistol Pickup/Ready, Rockets Pickup/Ready, Shotgun Pickup/Ready, Plasma Nade Pickup, “Clinky” Sound, Damnation & Downrush Waterfall, Outbound Waterfall & Stream Sounds.
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My ultimate argument against grenade hitmarkers:

 

Why?

my super human spartan armor not receiving hit-confirm information from my smart grenades ruins my immersion. 

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my super human spartan armor not receiving hit-confirm information from my smart grenades ruins my immersion.

I was trying to think of a witty response to this and was like, "WELL Spartans never actually have to turn off their radar while in combat, which really ruins my immersion".

 

...But then I remembered that that's the exact reason why radar is literally in competitive halo right now.

 

 

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But no follow up explosives occured. I survived because the game didn't reward that player with information from his near sheer luck. If hit markers were involved, I would of been pummeled with more explosives and more than likely would have died, all because he fired a random, blind shot.

 

Hit markers on explosives gives off information that honestly makes no sense to give off. Visual and audio cues directly from players actions should be the only thing giving off that kind of information. Players should have some semblance of control over how they give off this information, and not have that control taken from them due to literally random variables.

 

In my perfect world, shield flare would be Halo's hitmarkers and players don't give off any audio cues unless they take direct aggressive actions.

Your rocket example isn't very good because the detriment to firing a rocket blind is huge. You just wasted a rocket. You seem to think the game shouldn't reward blind "random" actions, which is of course impossible for a game to do. The game can't determine what was random and what was purposeful.

 

However your logic makes more sense with actual grenades, because grenades are no where near as costly as rockets to use. I don't think we need to worry about the game rewarding or not rewarding rockets that are shot just to gain information, because that is almost always already a poor decision, since rockets have a much better use. But since grenades are so plentiful during gameplay, the impact of them as position information gatherers is much more significant and should give designers more pause before adding hitmarkers.

 

This excerpt right here perfectly describes the drop in skill gap required though.. You illustrated an example where Paul the Pro and Nicky the Noob get the same exact call-out and have to decide how to react to said call-out. How it used to be done is once the players receive a call-out, based on your knowledge of the map (common hiding spots, vulnerable grenade spots, etc) you would then proceed to grenade an area in the hopes that you would get a kill. If you didn't get the kill, you would have to check or proceed to look in other areas as that person may have just simply gotten away.

 

The problem with the hit-markers lies in the fact that almost all of the guesswork is now eliminated from knowing where a person is. Some people used to hide in the Plasma Rifle cubby on S1 on Lockout to hide from people pushing from bottom middle. Now obviously the people from bottom mid are usually smart enough to bank grenades off the wall to weaken/kill people before pushing in.. But with a combination of misplaced grenades and having enough health to dodge/stay alive.. There's potential for the player who strategically dodged said grenades to stay alive by not giving away his location; which gives him/her the counter-flank opportunity (so to speak) on people pushing from bottom middle.

 

That entire scenario is completely nullified in Halo 5. Once a grenade is anywhere remotely near someone, an indicator pops and completely gives away his location and is now forced, without any doubt, to fight until he/she inevitably dies because the enemy team knows for a 100% fact that he/she is there. Especially due to the fact in Halo 5, the grenades can barely nick someone, not take any shields off of them, yet still give away their position. 

 

If you're removing scenarios that require players to use common map knowledge and awareness, you are indeed lowering the skill gap. I'm honestly not seeing the argument otherwise.

I think it interesting to note that as you point out, without grenade hitmarkers, getting a callout almost always meant throwing all of your grenades right away. With hitmarkers though, you may be incentivized to only throw one, wait, and then throw another.

 

As much you tried to avoid the word "camp" your scenario is basically "Isn't it cool when people counter-flank camp around corners and punch you in the back?"

 

Anyways, the scenario you have presented is a little different than the one in the OP, but it is definitely something to consider. In the OP example, the general position (depending on how accurate the callout was) is already known. But in this case, players are simply guessing about where a player is based on knowledge about how a map plays, not a callout. In that case a grenade hitmarker is providing way more information. However, even with grenade hitmarkers, player still have to use "common map knowledge and awareness" because they have to know where to throw the grenades. As long as there is a cost to throwing a grenade, map awareness is still going to be a vital skill. Heck even if a player had unlimited grenades, there is still the cost of the throw animation.

 

I think it's funny that soundwhoring was brought up in reference to Halo 5: the most obnoxiously loud game in the entire series. Yes, that is another issue. No, it doesn't have anything to do with the merits of explosive sonar grenades. Grenade hit markers are just another mechanic that give you more information for less thought and effort. They exist solely to make the game easier.

I'm interested in how you think a player could have smarter "thoughts" and give more "effort" to get the information hitmarkers provide? Changing your position to get a sightline to the called out player is a completely different decision than choosing to throw a grenade.

 

I never understood why people keep saying things like "we should pick our battles" as if we're only allowed a certain number of improvements? This is something that's VERY easy to fix and also VERY impactful to the game.

I don't think anyone is arguing it's hard to take out (code wise obviously very easy, determining how it affects the rest of the sandbox would take longer but still not that big of a deal.) However, if you think hitmarkers are "VERY" impactful, what adjectives would you use to describe sprint's effect on the game?

 

People are so against hitmarkers because it takes skill away from a Halo game, is this truly such a difficult concept to grasp?  

 

"it takes skill away from a Halo game" It's almost as if I disagree with this part of your statement, and made a post on TeamBeyond to drive discussion and argument around this very point so as to see what other people think.

 

I don't see how sound and hitmarkers can be equated. A gunshot makes sound. A person running makes sound. Could they be toned down a bit? Sure, but it's "real" information that can and should be used. A player running makes noise regardless of where it occurs or what surrounds him.

 

Grenade hitmarkers are artificial. A grenade explodes with no players in the vicinity and it sounds like an explosion, but somehow if a player is near it it makes an additional noise and throws hitmarkers across the screen. It's not "real" information (and please realize I use the term loosely).

 

What would be more interesting is if the grenades hitting someone made...Well, a sound. Not the ping we get now, but something related to the Spartan's shields. Something that could be heard up close, but not across the map.

 

At first I thought the "DAE total ImmERZIOn" posts were a joke, then you showed up.

 

And a final note - to have this situation in the Halo 5 era is especially embarrassing because you have extremely high-level gameplay available to watch 24/7 for free, which explicitly demonstrates how not-a-big-deal this is. People just come to their own ragtag conclusions based on shitty matchmaking gameplay and assume the mechanic is no good, but they're making no effort to watch how the counterplay looks at the Pro level. If you're not watching the pros, you don't have the full picture, because you are almost guaranteed to be not behaving as "Sirlin-play-to-win'y" as the Pros are. You get pissed that some guy got "free" information about you when you were counting on hiding behind the corner. The pros have money on the line, and they will pre-emptively thrust out of the way to avoid what, it turns out, were actually very predictable nades. Now he returns to the corner, and actually has an information advantage. It's this kind of metagame that is being ignored when people just say "it gives away too much information".

The best is when people post talking about how Lebel is the GOAT and CE is the most deep skillful game ever, but if you play them they suck. And then they go post about how Overwatch is so much funzorbs. Even with the COD crap that has infested Halo since Reach, every single Halo sequel has been the closest thing to Halo CE during each game's market lifetime. Nothing else out there emulates Halo CE to the degree that 2, 3, Reach, 4 (even 4), and 5 do.

 

Well yeah, everything has a metagame.

This is exactly right and I think this is the right way to think about it. How does the meta of no hitmarkers vs hitmarkers play out across lots of different gameplay scenarios?

 

It's so obvious that giving more information that you yourself didn't see with your own eyes is going to be more negative. One of the most important aspects of an FPS is finding your target (why people hate Promethean vision so much and things like UAVs in COD and RADAR) and people tend to dislike being spotted by outside means ESPECIALLY in a competitive environment.

This is interesting. It's almost an "immersion" based argument, but I see where you are coming from. Essentially if you can "see" a player (meaning you know where they are), you should be able to shoot a player. This is a compelling line of thought that I usually bring up when discussing sprint.

 

... was illustrating why being hit by a grenade completely gives away your location without have to use any of your own cognizance. Most people grenade S1 on instinct, however not everyone checks the corner for weak players in the cubby trying to regain their shields.

 

...

 

What can he do about a guy hiding in the cubby on S1? Well, for one, that player could look... There seems to be this disconnect with you that players shouldn't have to use their own senses in order to locate the enemy, instead, rely on a marker that pops up on your screen.

I don't think you can say it takes no cognizance and it's simply "instinct". For good players it is instinct because they have learned the map and understand where opponents are usually hiding. But of course as the skill gap increases, your opponents know that you know. And then you know that they know that you know. And so on..

 

This "look" argument is similar to the one directly above. Essentially claiming direct visual contact should be the primary (or perhaps only? Depends on what you think about soundwhoring) way of learning where players are. Be interested as well to hear what you think about the indicators on your teammates head that show they are under fire?

 

If a player wasn't physically seen, or heard from audio cues other than general walking, than that player shouldn't be found. Simple.

 

Same question as above: what do you think about the indicators on your teammates head that show they are under fire?

 

Tempted to say the same? Lol. There isn't a single Halo game that you own which you have more knowledge than me in. I can guarantee that fact and everyone on here that knows me personally from competing over the years will tell you the same.

I believe there is a law about online Halo arguments similar to Godwin's Law about Hitler, except this one is called Lethul's Law.

 

Lethul's Law states that in any sufficiently long argument about Halo, a "1v1 me bro" challenge will be issued by someone eventually, and that someone has at that point essentially lost the argument.

 

"Hey Lethul, Huke is better than you." "1v1 me bro".

 

"Hey Lethul, no one likes your awkward face. People think Snipedown is cool." "1v1 me BRO"

 

"Hey Lethul, you like boys and you've never touched a girl." "1v1 me bro. :lxthul: :wutface:" 

 

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-snip-

To answer your 1st response, the rocket was just part of the story of when I made the realization that I really don't like explosive based hit markers. If I died from subsequent explosives, then realistically speaking the rocket wasn't really wasted. You are correct about the cost of a rocket, but it wasn't the point.

 

But I could always talk about my Modern Warfare 2 days and having to deal with One Man Army noob tubers constantly spamming explosives to feel people out in every corner of the map. Dealing with those hit markers/guaranteed deaths were REAL fun.

 

For your 2nd response, I don't think the teammates taking damage indicator is a fair comparison. If the aggressor is attacking your teammate, he's probably already giving off some visual and audio feedback anyway. The indicator doesn't spell out where the aggressor is besides maybe a general area. Having an "I'm under attack" beacon helps with under ideal matchmaking situations where the majority doesn't use a mike. It allows teammates to be an extension of your general senses, but isn't that case at high level anyway? I don't see its harm.

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Something I haven't seen mentioned is how hitmarkers also give you information even when you DON'T receive them, for example, if you were to throw a grenade into one of the caves on Coliseum and not receive a hitmarker you now know a player isn't there. I don't really agree with being able to know where an enemy is or isn't by pressing 1 button on your controller, it takes away from map awareness and positioning to locate the enemy players.

Yeah, the game gives you too many ways to deduce where your opponent is/isn't. It really should be awareness and call outs only.

 

Another one I don't like is the power weapon icon, because it lets the enemy know exactly when you picked it up, and as a result, exactly where you are.

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At first I thought the "DAE total ImmERZIOn" posts were a joke, then you showed up.

 

Yeah, you misinterpreted my post. I did not mean "real" as in real life, I meant it as in sound is a consistent/established mechanic that already exists as part of the game. The actions you take make noise, and make them consistently regardless of where they are performed.

 

Hit markers are different. The action of throwing a grenade behaves differently depending on where they are thrown, based on whether or not someone is near them. The feedback is artificial in the sense that it provides information you can't get otherwise. Sound is information you can get no matter the situation.

 

I suggested a sound when grenades hit opponents to bridge the gap between the two camps, not for immersion.

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1 ) -----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I think it interesting to note that as you point out, without grenade hitmarkers, getting a callout almost always meant throwing all of your grenades right away. With hitmarkers though, you may be incentivized to only throw one, wait, and then throw another.

 

As much you tried to avoid the word "camp" your scenario is basically "Isn't it cool when people counter-flank camp around corners and punch you in the back?"

 

Anyways, the scenario you have presented is a little different than the one in the OP, but it is definitely something to consider. In the OP example, the general position (depending on how accurate the callout was) is already known. But in this case, players are simply guessing about where a player is based on knowledge about how a map plays, not a callout. In that case a grenade hitmarker is providing way more information. However, even with grenade hitmarkers, player still have to use "common map knowledge and awareness" because they have to know where to throw the grenades. As long as there is a cost to throwing a grenade, map awareness is still going to be a vital skill. Heck even if a player had unlimited grenades, there is still the cost of the throw animation.

 

2) -----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't think anyone is arguing it's hard to take out (code wise obviously very easy, determining how it affects the rest of the sandbox would take longer but still not that big of a deal.) However, if you think hitmarkers are "VERY" impactful, what adjectives would you use to describe sprint's effect on the game?

 

3) -----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't think you can say it takes no cognizance and it's simply "instinct". For good players it is instinct because they have learned the map and understand where opponents are usually hiding. But of course as the skill gap increases, your opponents know that you know. And then you know that they know that you know. And so on..

 

This "look" argument is similar to the one directly above. Essentially claiming direct visual contact should be the primary (or perhaps only? Depends on what you think about soundwhoring) way of learning where players are. Be interested as well to hear what you think about the indicators on your teammates head that show they are under fire?

 

4) -----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I believe there is a law about online Halo arguments similar to Godwin's Law about Hitler, except this one is called Lethul's Law.

 

Lethul's Law states that in any sufficiently long argument about Halo, a "1v1 me bro" challenge will be issued by someone eventually, and that someone has at that point essentially lost the argument.

 

"Hey Lethul, Huke is better than you." "1v1 me bro".

 

"Hey Lethul, no one likes your awkward face. People think Snipedown is cool." "1v1 me BRO"

 

"Hey Lethul, you like boys and you've never touched a girl." "1v1 me bro. :lxthul: :wutface:" 

 

 

Responses in order:

 

1) No, I didn't insinuate that not having grenade hitmarkers meant you would throw out all of your grenades. In fact, I'm actually surprised you even said that because that's actually an effect caused by hitmarkers. Once someone sees a grenade hitmarker on their screen, all of a sudden a hail of grenades immediately fly into the room until they're out.

 

I was actually taking this response seriously until I just read this part. No.. I didn't dance around the word "camp". I almost didn't want to dignify this argument with a response because I want to assume you're trolling; especially amongst the context of Halo 5. But I will reiterate since Sebastian didn't seem to understand how to translate to another scenario either... My post wasn't about giving the person on S1 the ability to keep hiding in the corner.. That post however, was about the player from bottom middle getting information he shouldn't be getting. It doesn't have to be Lockout and someone sitting in the corner on S1 for hit-markers to be bad! It could be a person travelling from one area of the map to another for example: A player going from Flowers to Cafe on Plaza in H5 and getting struck by a grenade that came through Cafe window. A person could've been bottom middle and have thrown that grenade in cafe window.. So there's 0% chance he could've saw that person run in there, however, he now knows someone is in there without a doubt because of a grenade he instinctively threw it in there. 

 

If that was the location he was planning to check next, sweet! He is now rewarded with a weak player in Cafe, however, he shouldn't have gotten information that he was in there for free. If no one saw the player run into cafe, his location shouldn't have been given away from a free scout grenade. Does this make more sense now that it's an example without "camping" as you put it?

 

(The rest answered in 3)

 

2) Well if you read what I was responding to, it's something that is a very common theme around here which is "Yeah X is bad, but Y is more important so let's focus on Y". We all agree X is bad, but since Y is worse, X is okay for now.. No, it's not okay. We have the ability to focus on multiple things at once which the basis of what I was getting at. And sprint is complete trash, I don't even understand why you would even ask that? Lol... It looks like you're using the train of thought of the post I was replying to.. Since I want grenade hitmarkers gone, I must think sprint is okay? We're not talking about sprint here, so my thoughts on sprint are irrelevant in this thread and considering that this is your thread, this was a very odd question to propose.

 

3) It is very easy, especially once you've obtained a solid understanding of the game, to gauge a "general area" of where an opponent is going to be based on your teammate's locations. Within those general areas are spots where players tend to go. Everything thing in the last paragraph of 1 can be achieved with common map knowledge and simple team awareness. You don't need a deep understanding of the game to know that if on Midship, if your teammates are on P2, Carb 3, and Blue 2... That the other team has a very large chance of being in Red. It's not a question.

 

The grenade throwing animation point is rather irrelevant because usually grenades are thrown as preemptive measures. If you throw it in the middle of a fight, you should die.. However, being able to die because you're throwing a grenade is not a pro in favor of hitmarkers. Two completely separate points. The last thing you touched on in this paragraph was that the grenade hitmarkers gives much more information.. That's exactly everyone's point. The radius on the grenade is pretty big (relative to the player size) to where it can nick someone from a few feet away, not do any damage, and still give their location away. However, it's small enough (relative to the map size) that once someone gets hit by that grenade, your exact location is given up. This is bad for gameplay.

 

Yes, I can say it takes away a the ability for a person to use one's own cognizance to know where someone's at.. How do you think we've played Halo for the past 15 years without having this wonderful hit-marker available to us? Because instinct from playing the game for so long allowed us to adapt to how players move and make use of several areas on the map.

 

As Moses pointed out in one of his replies... Being able to look and see someone in a location is vastly different to hearing something from another player (whether it's footsteps, another player firing, etc.). For one, I need to be in vicinity to hear someone.. As Moses facetiously put it, you can't throw your headset across the map to hear someone. These two things cannot be equated. Apples and oranges. Same thing with the teammate indicator, not sure how it could be equated in this context since your teammates have the ability to simply tell you where they're being shot from. However, your grenade hitting someone across an entire map or in a different room altogether without you knowing that that player is there (assuming you didn't see this person walk around the corner before hand) is not the same thing.

 

4) You didn't finish reading that section. I didn't "1v1 me bro" :eyes: ... I illustrated why I personally believe Sebastian has lacking in-game knowledge, and I clearly stated the reasons why (his inability to translate a scenario amongst several in a Halo context.. Something he always does in his arguments on these forums, not just this grenade hitmarker argument). I don't care if anyone is good or bad in the game nor do I care if you share a different opinion than me; however if you can't do anything but come up with ad-hoc arguments to make your points, it's very noticeable and I'm going to call you out on it. Simple as that.

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Your rocket example isn't very good because the detriment to firing a rocket blind is huge. You just wasted a rocket. You seem to think the game shouldn't reward blind "random" actions, which is of course impossible for a game to do. The game can't determine what was random and what was purposeful.

 

However your logic makes more sense with actual grenades, because grenades are no where near as costly as rockets to use. I don't think we need to worry about the game rewarding or not rewarding rockets that are shot just to gain information, because that is almost always already a poor decision, since rockets have a much better use. But since grenades are so plentiful during gameplay, the impact of them as position information gatherers is much more significant and should give designers more pause before adding hitmarkers.

 

I think it interesting to note that as you point out, without grenade hitmarkers, getting a callout almost always meant throwing all of your grenades right away. With hitmarkers though, you may be incentivized to only throw one, wait, and then throw another.

 

As much you tried to avoid the word "camp" your scenario is basically "Isn't it cool when people counter-flank camp around corners and punch you in the back?"

 

Anyways, the scenario you have presented is a little different than the one in the OP, but it is definitely something to consider. In the OP example, the general position (depending on how accurate the callout was) is already known. But in this case, players are simply guessing about where a player is based on knowledge about how a map plays, not a callout. In that case a grenade hitmarker is providing way more information. However, even with grenade hitmarkers, player still have to use "common map knowledge and awareness" because they have to know where to throw the grenades. As long as there is a cost to throwing a grenade, map awareness is still going to be a vital skill. Heck even if a player had unlimited grenades, there is still the cost of the throw animation.

 

I'm interested in how you think a player could have smarter "thoughts" and give more "effort" to get the information hitmarkers provide? Changing your position to get a sightline to the called out player is a completely different decision than choosing to throw a grenade.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing it's hard to take out (code wise obviously very easy, determining how it affects the rest of the sandbox would take longer but still not that big of a deal.) However, if you think hitmarkers are "VERY" impactful, what adjectives would you use to describe sprint's effect on the game?

 

 

"it takes skill away from a Halo game" It's almost as if I disagree with this part of your statement, and made a post on TeamBeyond to drive discussion and argument around this very point so as to see what other people think.

 

 

At first I thought the "DAE total ImmERZIOn" posts were a joke, then you showed up.

 

The best is when people post talking about how Lebel is the GOAT and CE is the most deep skillful game ever, but if you play them they suck. And then they go post about how Overwatch is so much funzorbs. Even with the COD crap that has infested Halo since Reach, every single Halo sequel has been the closest thing to Halo CE during each game's market lifetime. Nothing else out there emulates Halo CE to the degree that 2, 3, Reach, 4 (even 4), and 5 do.

 

This is exactly right and I think this is the right way to think about it. How does the meta of no hitmarkers vs hitmarkers play out across lots of different gameplay scenarios?

 

This is interesting. It's almost an "immersion" based argument, but I see where you are coming from. Essentially if you can "see" a player (meaning you know where they are), you should be able to shoot a player. This is a compelling line of thought that I usually bring up when discussing sprint.

 

I don't think you can say it takes no cognizance and it's simply "instinct". For good players it is instinct because they have learned the map and understand where opponents are usually hiding. But of course as the skill gap increases, your opponents know that you know. And then you know that they know that you know. And so on..

 

This "look" argument is similar to the one directly above. Essentially claiming direct visual contact should be the primary (or perhaps only? Depends on what you think about soundwhoring) way of learning where players are. Be interested as well to hear what you think about the indicators on your teammates head that show they are under fire?

 

 

Same question as above: what do you think about the indicators on your teammates head that show they are under fire?

 

I believe there is a law about online Halo arguments similar to Godwin's Law about Hitler, except this one is called Lethul's Law.

 

Lethul's Law states that in any sufficiently long argument about Halo, a "1v1 me bro" challenge will be issued by someone eventually, and that someone has at that point essentially lost the argument.

 

"Hey Lethul, Huke is better than you." "1v1 me bro".

 

"Hey Lethul, no one likes your awkward face. People think Snipedown is cool." "1v1 me BRO"

 

"Hey Lethul, you like boys and you've never touched a girl." "1v1 me bro. :lxthul: :wutface:" 

 

 

Just when you feel like you're taking crazy pills, a rational person appears on the horizon. Yes yes and yes.

 

 

4) You didn't finish reading that section. I didn't "1v1 me bro" :eyes: ... I illustrated why I personally believe Sebastian has lacking in-game knowledge, and I clearly stated the reasons why (his inability to translate a scenario amongst several in a Halo context.. Something he always does in his arguments on these forums, not just this grenade hitmarker argument). I don't care if anyone is good or bad in the game nor do I care if you share a different opinion than me; however if you can't do anything but come up with ad-hoc arguments to make your points, it's very noticeable and I'm going to call you out on it. Simple as that.

 

Bro, 1v1 me on prisoner.

 

And then answer me these questions 3:

1. WHAT is a Halo 2 button combo that has the effect of a BXR, can be done without a full clip, and is not RRBX?

2. HOW could you get to the top of damnation without using the portal glitch, by yourself, with normal settings?

3. WHERE is there a ladder in a Halo 2 multiplayer map?

 

Answer quickly young traveler, or your in-game Halo knawledge shall be forever impugned.

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Just when you feel like you're taking crazy pills, a rational person appears on the horizon. Yes yes and yes.

 

 

Finally, someone capable of weaving similarly convoluted webs of sophistry rock solid, logical reasoning!

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Just when you feel like you're taking crazy pills, a rational person appears on the horizon. Yes yes and yes.

 

Bro, 1v1 me on prisoner.

 

And then answer me these questions 3:

1. WHAT is a Halo 2 button combo that has the effect of a BXR, can be done without a full clip, and is not RRBX?

2. HOW could you get to the top of damnation without using the portal glitch, by yourself, with normal settings?

3. WHERE is there a ladder in a Halo 2 multiplayer map?

 

Answer quickly young traveler, or your in-game Halo knawledge shall be forever impugned.

 

One person who shares the same opinion as you does not mean rational. Although, since he can actually articulate somewhat of an argument aside from a few questionable statements here and there, I actually respect his opinion.

Red: Grammar aside... (Lol) I don't even know why I'm dignifying this with a response. But I'll bite, even though I know you're trolling lol.

 

1) RRYB.. Oooohh so complicated and unknown!!! Kappa

2) At waterfall with stickies, throw them in 4 specific locations and walk towards OS, pick it up, and propel yourself up to top snipe.

3) I'm tempted to say that even you don't know this answer because there isn't just a Halo 2 map that has a ladder. Nice trick question.

 

If you were serious about the Pris 1v1, please make my day lol.

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One person who shares the same opinion as you does not mean rational. Although, since he can actually articulate an argument aside from a few questionable statements here and there, I actually respect his opinion.

Red: Grammar aside... (Lol) I don't even know why I'm dignifying this with a response. But I'll bite, even though I know you're trolling lol.

 

1) RRYB.. Oooohh so complicated and unknown!!! Kappa

2) At waterfall with stickies, throw them in 4 specific locations and walk towards OS, pick it up, and propel yourself up to top snipe.

3) I'm tempted to say that even you don't know this answer because there isn't just a Halo 2 map that has a ladder. Nice trick question.

 

If you were serious about the Pris 1v1, please make my day lol.

 

1. Nice.

2. I meant like outside the map, not just up to top snipe - re-guess?

3. Sooo name them or .. what are we doin here

 

Tomorrow night on MCC? Let's settle this like men once did

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1. Nice.

2. I meant like outside the map, not just up to top snipe - re-guess?

3. Sooo name them or .. what are we doin here

 

Tomorrow night on MCC? Let's settle this like men once did

 

Dude I'm not going to sit here and go back and forth about this stupid stuff with you lol, It's obvious that I clearly know what I'm talking about.

 

We can do it right now, I go out on Friday nights. Right now I'm on, you're online, lets do it. 

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