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CaptainCowboy

Why are people so against grenade hitmarkers?

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Obviously they change the gameplay. Grenades can now be used to learn information about opponents even though you can't see them. When you see these hitmarkers, you know now where an enemy is, and roughly how much damage you did. But it's not in any way game breaking like sprint. Halo still plays like Halo with grenade hitmarkers and I like using this bit of feedback in making gameplay decisions.

 

A change in the gameplay isn't necessarily a drop off in skill. For example, take our good buddies Paul the Pro and Nicky the Noob. In the case without grenade hitmarkers, say our players get a callout that someone is hurt somewhere on the map and they throw a grenade. Now Paul may throw a better, more accurate grenade (he is a pro after all), but since he can't actually see where the enemy is hiding, he is just hoping that his grenade landed close to the enemy and did damage. Nicky is hoping in the exact same way. Neither of them have access to the information that hitmarkers provide.

 

In what way is Paul able to exhibit his skill over Nicky in this case?

 

If instead they got information from hitmarkers, Paul, being the pro that he is, will definitely be able to use this information better than Nicky. Utilizing feedback and making intelligently informed decisions on the fly is a key skill in any real time game.

 

Obviously it changes the way you approach different gameplay scenarios, but I don't see how giving players access to information they otherwise wouldn't have had whatsoever is lowering the skill gap.

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Grenade hit markers allow you to see around corners and through walls

 

Hard pass

 

By this logic, shouldn't all footsteps and enemy noise be eliminated then? Sound whoring provides the exact same benefits that throwing nades to gather information does.

 

If you have a decent headset, you can hear gunfire a sufficiently long distance away and have access to where the enemy could be ~ information gathered without moving.

 

You chuck a nade across the map where you think they spawned and get a marker, you have an idea of where they are ~ information gathered without moving. 

 

It's not the same exact thing of course, but I hope I highlighted the fact that there are some similarities in the purpose of the two actions, except one requires spending >$50 on an extra peripheral and the other is just an aspect of the game.

 

I think a better argument and more refined argument should be made if we're going to discuss the viability of a feature in our games moving forward, especially in regards to competitive play. 

 

As it stands I pose the question, is there a distinct, more skillful aspect to sound whoring someones location/paying for a good headset over just receiving visual information on where people could be via grenades? If so, are we going to hold that sound and visual feedback are not equal in Halo and one should be preferred over the other?

 

Just food for thought. I think we should work to clarify this.

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By this logic, shouldn't all footsteps and enemy noise be eliminated then? Sound whoring provides the exact same benefits that throwing nades to gather information does.

 

If you have a decent headset, you can hear gunfire a sufficiently long distance away and have access to where the enemy could be ~ information gathered without moving.

 

You chuck a nade across the map where you think they spawned and get a marker, you have an idea of where they are ~ information gathered without moving. 

 

It's not the same exact thing of course, but I hope I highlighted the fact that there are some similarities in the purpose of the two actions, except one requires spending >$50 on an extra peripheral and the other is just an aspect of the game.

 

I think a better argument and more refined argument should be made if we're going to discuss the viability of a feature in our games moving forward, especially in regards to competitive play. 

 

As it stands I pose the question, is there a distinct, more skillful aspect to sound whoring someones location/paying for a good headset over just receiving visual information on where people could be via grenades? If so, are we going to hold that sound and visual feedback are not equal in Halo and one should be preferred over the other?

 

Just food for thought. I think we should work to clarify this.

It would be nice for more shooters to try and eliminate soundwhoring.

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I feel grenades should be a, weakening/finishing off tool, not a tool for gathering intelligence. It just doesn't suit the weapon imo.

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By this logic, shouldn't all footsteps and enemy noise be eliminated then? Sound whoring provides the exact same benefits that throwing nades to gather information does.

 

If you have a decent headset, you can hear gunfire a sufficiently long distance away and have access to where the enemy could be ~ information gathered without moving.

 

You chuck a nade across the map where you think they spawned and get a marker, you have an idea of where they are ~ information gathered without moving. 

 

It's not the same exact thing of course, but I hope I highlighted the fact that there are some similarities in the purpose of the two actions, except one requires spending >$50 on an extra peripheral and the other is just an aspect of the game.

 

I think a better argument and more refined argument should be made if we're going to discuss the viability of a feature in our games moving forward, especially in regards to competitive play. 

 

As it stands I pose the question, is there a distinct, more skillful aspect to sound whoring someones location/paying for a good headset over just receiving visual information on where people could be via grenades? If so, are we going to hold that sound and visual feedback are not equal in Halo and one should be preferred over the other?

 

Just food for thought. I think we should work to clarify this.

Fair point, I know you didn't respond to me but I was thinking specifically visually when I made my post, but I definitely didn't clarify that at any point in my post.

 

As for audio I think I'm more alright with pretty much all audio cues will be from an aggressive action to immediately engage another player. During immediate engagement I think all players involved should have the opportunity to understand what's happening. Even if the result is instant death from a backsmack/snipe/explosive, the aggressor and the victim both are aware that engagement started and in some instances ended almost immediately.

 

I know in my original post I said something along the lines of advantages being earned by exposing risk and vulnerability (in this case information is the advantage, and I don't want grenade throws to expose that information). So perhaps I need to expand my view to be earning advantages by exposing risk and vulnerability, but allowing options for players to keep track of engagement around the map. This would then allow my argument to have kill feeds, death trackers on the scoreboard, and bullet trails be acceptable because they are all the result of direct, purposeful engagement. But things like grenades which may be tossed at the unknown and their resulting hit markers would not be acceptable under this view because it's a result of trying to identify someone or finish off a different direct engagement but I would argue isn't direct purposeful engagement in and of itself.

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May I ask the op if he understands why most people on here dislike radar because that makes this much easier to explain,if not... Radar discourages flanking,surprise plays, and other similar stuff which consequently slows the game down alot.....Damnit everyone else did a much better job explaining this.No radar has the following effects.

1:stops camping.

2:forcing better teamwork.

3:allows high level players to go full out.

4: allows player to be much more creative with movement.

So in a game where we have already have the op radar nade hitmarkers eliminate nearly any possibility of making a sneaky play.

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I remember a situation on Halo 3 when I was playing Team Slayer why I hate hit markers with explosives of any kind.

 

I forget the map's name (multi leveled, 2 small lifts and one big lift with a flamethrower at the bottom) but I was stuck up at the top of one of the smaller lifts. I was trying to be sneaky due to knowing the enemy team secured rockets and snipe, so I didn't want to poke my head out naturally. Suddenly, and without warning, a rocket flew into the room leaving me one shot. Remembering the game, there was no way in hell someone spotted me there. There was simply NO angle they could of spotted me from in that spot. The rocket guy was just firing willy nilly in hopes of getting a lucky random kill.

 

But no follow up explosives occured. I survived because the game didn't reward that player with information from his near sheer luck. If hit markers were involved, I would of been pummeled with more explosives and more than likely would have died, all because he fired a random, blind shot.

 

Hit markers on explosives gives off information that honestly makes no sense to give off. Visual and audio cues directly from players actions should be the only thing giving off that kind of information. Players should have some semblance of control over how they give off this information, and not have that control taken from them due to literally random variables.

 

In my perfect world, shield flare would be Halo's hitmarkers and players don't give off any audio cues unless they take direct aggressive actions.

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I don't really mind them based on your visual argument. But I also want to use my own set of skills of gathering information to know if my grenade made contact. Its 50/50 for me. If I hit an enemy in Halo 5, and they're close to me, then I have to choices: finish them off with my weapons or grenade them to death. If they are far away, its the same. I'd pick and go with it, hopefully not dying in the process. In Halo 3, for example, I wouldn't know if my grenade was wasted, even if they do respond quicker than power weapons. I wouldn't know if I should continue to grenade a position and I'd let an enemy out of my sight, and I'd lose a kill. Then again, I'd search the area and grenade them again or shoot them, just like with Halo 5. 

 

This is why I don't mind them, but I can see why some would rather remove them. Either way it doesn't matter to me. However, if I were a multiplayer designer on the next Halo, I'd remove them.

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it's like another form of radar. It's just longer. No reason to flank if you get hit by a nade cause you are now broadcasted. It just hinders movement. 

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While they don't bother me personally, they do give an awful lot of free information, and I'd be perfectly fine with a hitmarkerless game.

I think a better way of going about it would be giving a distinct sound grenades hitting shields/no shields. This way, you could still get that information at the expense of a grenade, but you'd have to pay close attention to earn it.

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Obviously hit markers have no place in a halo game. But considering everything wrongwith the current settings I believe there are much more impactful things we should focus on, such as radar, sprint and autos.

 

When we face a foe such as 343 with ignorance level: kek, we need to pick our battles boys.

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I actually like hit markers on weapons though. I can see if my BR shots are landing or not, yet again it eliminates you knowing if you hit the shots, rather than the game telling you (shimmering shields).

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Obviously hit markers have no place in a halo game. But considering everything wrongwith the current settings I believe there are much more impactful things we should focus on, such as radar, sprint and autos.

 

When we face a foe such as 343 with ignorance level: kek, we need to pick our battles boys.

 

I never understood why people keep saying things like "we should pick our battles" as if we're only allowed a certain number of improvements? This is something that's VERY easy to fix and also VERY impactful to the game.

 

I'll even give you the code fix for it:

OnHit()
{
  ...
  hitmarker->Show();
  ...
}

/// New code

OnHit()
{
  ...
  //hitmarker->Show(); 
  ...
}

(Yes, this code snippet is satirical -- For some reason I feel like I need to point that out to some people on here lol) 

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Hitmarkers are such a reduntant mechanic in Halo. We've had the shield flickering from day one, and they got better with each installment. Reach even had the "pop" sound when shields were down to assist in that. IMO a much more elegant solution than hitmarkers, because now they're in a shitty situation where they can't just remove hitmarkers from explosives without it feeling "off".

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People are so against hitmarkers because it takes skill away from a Halo game, is this truly such a difficult concept to grasp?  

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I never understood why people keep saying things like "we should pick our battles" as if we're only allowed a certain number of improvements? This is something that's VERY easy to fix and also VERY impactful to the game.

 

I'll even give you the code fix for it:

OnHit()
{
  ...
  hitmarker->Show();
  ...
}

/// New code

OnHit()
{
  ...
  //hitmarker->Show(); 
  ...
}

(Yes, this code snippet is satirical -- For some reason I feel like I need to point that out to some people on here lol) 

 

Halo 6 probably...

 

OnHit()

{

    ...

    //hitmarker->Show();

    grenadeAnimation->Show();

    ...

}

 

 

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By this logic, shouldn't all footsteps and enemy noise be eliminated then? Sound whoring provides the exact same benefits that throwing nades to gather information does.

 

If you have a decent headset, you can hear gunfire a sufficiently long distance away and have access to where the enemy could be ~ information gathered without moving.

 

You chuck a nade across the map where you think they spawned and get a marker, you have an idea of where they are ~ information gathered without moving. 

 

It's not the same exact thing of course, but I hope I highlighted the fact that there are some similarities in the purpose of the two actions, except one requires spending >$50 on an extra peripheral and the other is just an aspect of the game.

 

I think a better argument and more refined argument should be made if we're going to discuss the viability of a feature in our games moving forward, especially in regards to competitive play. 

 

As it stands I pose the question, is there a distinct, more skillful aspect to sound whoring someones location/paying for a good headset over just receiving visual information on where people could be via grenades? If so, are we going to hold that sound and visual feedback are not equal in Halo and one should be preferred over the other?

 

Just food for thought. I think we should work to clarify this.

fair point but i can't HEAR someone across the map

 

i can't throw my headset P2 and see if someone is hiding there

 

i can't throw my headset blue cave and see if someone is there

 

 

generally if you can hear a players footsteps can't they also hear yours?

 

 

If so, are we going to hold that sound and visual feedback are not equal in Halo and one should be preferred over the other?

have they ever been equal? you can play halo with no sound, you can't play halo without vision 

 

 

imo the well reasoned argument not to include grenade hit markers is that the competitive community doesn't want them, simple as that

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