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HCS Pro League Summer 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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it's only swat and ffa for now until they see if it works. let's put it this way, if there is anyone i'd want to put this system together, it would be menke. 

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That's the thing. The trending data would allow the system to know with a high level of confidence whether social players actually play to win.

 

Doing this right would only improve the matchmaking system.

 

Let's say it's halo6 is popular, but it's 3am on Wednesday, and the system finds 6 people in your town who are as good as you and they want to play ranked.

 

There are other people in your town at the time playing ranked, but they are nearly as good as the 6 of you. it could go outside of your city and find some folks, but there happen to be 2 players of your skill level who consistently tryhard in social, and are currently in the social que (purely because it offers more maps).

 

Why not let those two people into your game, and simultaneously benefit from having the best connection possible?

I hear ya but I've always been someone who would rather wait longer for a "better" match

 

Tbh I think this system can work for every Playlist besides HCS (and FFA + dubs if we had the population)

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Not saying getting rid of ALL social playlists, they are essential - get rid of DUPLICATED playlists is all I am saying, where the only fucking difference is a rank, it just fragments the player base for no reason. It serves no purpose.

 

STOP using halo 3 as a comparison - halo 3 had a population capable of doing it - we do not have that anymore and have not for what 6 years now?

The difference between real ranked and social though is not just a rank. Ranked provides tight skill matching and social provides mixed bag matching.

 

I think a lot of people and especially this Menke character really don't understand the power behind mixed bag MM. Loose skill MM provides a carrot for casual players to chase and that carrot is the feeling of dominating. Just like how a care package containing an AC-130 and it's subsequent 20 kill streak can create a high that can carry a player through 10 straight 10-30 games that one game where a player goes 20-4 creates a high feeling that can carry people on through subsequent games.

 

Trying to "rank" a player in social and then matching them based on that rank in social literally defeats the entire point of social. Casual players and comp players trying to relax don't want to play 50-49 games. Those games are stressful. Those games stir up competitive juices. Those are not the emotions people want out of social. They would much rather alternate between shitting on people and getting shit on. That creates the domination carrot.

 

The h3 model can easily work with a lower population. You just have to lower the total amount of playlists. Instead of 10 ranked and 10 social make 3 and 3. Or even 1 ranked list and 4 social. Whatever.

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Trying to "rank" a player in social and then matching them based on that rank in social literally defeats the entire point of social. Casual players and comp players trying to relax don't want to play 50-49 games. Those games are stressful. Those games stir up competitive juices. Those are not the emotions people want out of social. They would much rather alternate between shitting on people and getting shit on. That creates the domination carrot.

Yea but their trends say otherwise :simms:

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The problem is if they can't get it right who knows what cascading disaster it will create.

 

I am firmly of the belief that when it comes to 343 they REALLY need to stop trying to try new things right now and just simplify things and try to get the core experience of Halo right first. Once they make a game with solid Halo gameplay and simple, functional MM then they can worry about innovating with the next game.

I just think this is an irrational attitude. If they can't get it right in beta they just do what they've been doing.

 

The people who handle the UX aren't the people making gameplay decisions. So having a progressive matchmaking system and having solid halo gameplay are not conflicting goals in any sense.

 

Ironically, the more complex matchmaking algorithm would make the core experience for the user more simple. That should be the goal of the UX team.

 

Simply cutting playlists makes it harder for players to play what they want. Too many playlists dilutes the population. A smart algorithm solves both problems- and helps regardless of how large or small the game's population is.

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Titanfall 2 does this as well.

 

Well, Respawn (the guys that brought us CoD4 and MW2) are on a whole other level compared to 343. Did you see all of the free updates that TF has gotten and is still getting? The new maps are some of the best yet - they understand their audience. 

 

With Halo 5, we have a couple good maps. I'm only truly happy playing on Truth which is a remake of Midship. 

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BTW @@Towey is apparently talking about coaching at The Sports Performance Summit. He's slated to speak after current Chicago mayor Rahm Emmanuel and is talking about the importance of coaching in esports. Also in his time slot is Jill ellis head coach of the US woman's soccer team. 

Plz vlog this towey. 

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:wutface::wutface:

Vaj5WKe.png

Worked on blops 2, h4 and MCC MM but doesn't understand the underlying appeal of social playlists?

 

A little baffling

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Rank is not the only difference. Like the example he said, people who play ranked are SWEATING. They are trying hard to win. It's a mentality issue, not a MMR issue not a trend issue. People goof off in social at all ranks. What if you were matched with someone from social whose trend normally has them doing well but you catch them when they are drinking, distracted, goofing off. They 1k/20d. 

 

it is an MMR issue though.  People goof off, team shoot, play drunk etc in ranked too.  Performance delta between ranked and social is not as high as people think it is. Plus, see below 

 

I hear ya but I've always been someone who would rather wait longer for a "better" match

 

Tbh I think this system can work for every Playlist besides HCS (and FFA + dubs if we had the population)

 

I think Menke addressed this.  There could be a trigger in place say where if you are searching focused, you can only get players on your team that are also searching in ranked.

 

:wutface:  :wutface:

 

Vaj5WKe.png

 

The smartest guy in the room.

 

I always find it hilarious/cringy when people try to claim the he doesn't know what he is talking about or is incapable of making a complex system work well.  

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Drop Halo 5 on Games for Gold, there's the fix for this ranked/social merger bullshit.  

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Well, Respawn (the guys that brought us CoD4 and MW2) are on a whole other level compared to 343. Did you see all of the free updates that TF has gotten and is still getting? The new maps are some of the best yet - they understand their audience. 

 

With Halo 5, we have a couple good maps. I'm only truly happy playing on Truth which is a remake of Midship. 

 

You can't just make a blanket assumption about the whole company like that.  The guys working on ranking are not the same guys designing maps are not the same guys balancing weapons etc etc etc.  What does map quality have to do with matchmaking and UX?  nothing....

 

Saying "well we shouldn't do this becuase i don't trust the dev to do it right" is a poor way to improve.  

 

And besides, there is nobody on the planet (not hyperbole) that is better at creating ranking and matchmaking systems than Menke.  The fact that 343 is paying for his services and got him away from Activision-Blizzard is saying something.

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Drop Halo 5 on Games for Gold, there's the fix for this ranked/social merger bullshit.

Few people are gonna take the 100GB plunge I'm afraid.

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Man, I really feel like competitive minded players can't help but project when discussing social playlists.

 

You can't go into social with ANY expectations on the outcome. In fact, if you do have expectations, then chances are it's your own behavior that is contributing to the stressful, sweaty, environment.

 

Truth is, some people go into social just to shit on people. Some people go in because they know they'll get shit on and they don't want it to effect their rank. Others go because of the wider selection of gametypes. Others go because they want to play with friends with a wider skill gap. Regardless of why people play, outcomes will vary.

 

Some matches will be 50-49. Some will 50-20. Do you think social players prefer the latter? Or is it that they actually don't care either way, because they just want to relax?

 

Well if a player truly doesnt care and wants to relax, then why did they fight so hard to get the 49 kills? They could have relaxed an settled for just 20. If you play Social, and keep getting close games, it's because you actually DO care... and you are the perfect candidate for matching against ranked players.

 

In reality, the people who complain about sweating in social, are tryhard who want the other team to either lay down or be garbage. And they convinced themselves that the players on the recieving end of a Social beat down actually like that experience. If you would just relax, your MMR wouldn't be so high, and you wouldn't get sweaty games.

If every single match a casual players enters is a tight 50-49 game, they will not have fun. So yes, they would prefer the occasional 50-20 loss so long as it fits in to a string of games with a variety of outcomes that feature some games where they personally perform very well.

 

I played Destiny in Year 1 where it had very loose skill matching then I took a long break and came back for Rise of iron. The game at that point had very tight skill MM. A lot of the same people I played with in year 1 also came back for ROI. These people are mostly casual PvE guys. In year one we played PvP all the time. None of use were super good destiny pvp guys. We won some, we lost some. People would go off one game and go 20-2 and then go 2-20 the next. It was the nature of MM back then it was the random nature of the game itself. We loved it. Played tons of games. In year 3 with tight MM, after a week we all gave up. Every game was super close. Every game was a 1.00 slog.

 

And it`s not as simple ``trying super hard for 49 kills`` as you put it. The game will put you in tight matches no matter what level of skill or effort you put in. It`s inescapable. it`s the entire point of the system.

 

 

Here`s my take on this topic. For the sake of simplicity let`s say there are two main types of gamers. I`ll use the games Dark Souls and Skyrim to help illustrate my point.

 

Gamer type A- This type of gamer loves Dark Souls. The exhilaration of overcoming difficulties is fun for this person. Dying while sometimes frustrating can be seen as a learning experience. This person loves the feeling of being challenged and overcoming those challenges. They like being challenged every step of the way. Constant challenge keeps them engaged and that is what is fun to them.

 

Gamer type B- This type of gamers like Skyrim. He likes running around the world being an unstoppable shouting viking of death with 1.4 billion in gold sitting in his inventory. However the occasional tough enemy is ok, so long as it`s not every single enemy. Challenge can be fun, but not constant challenge.

 

If you suddenly make every enemy encounter in Skyrim test the player to the limits of his ability(adaptive to each player) the game will no longer be fun for gamer type B. That type of player does not enjoy being challenged every step of the way.

 

The majority of console gamers are Type B. This is why games with loose skill based MM dominate XBL and PSN. This is why when given the choice the majority flocks to playlists with loose skill MM.

 

Loose skill, mixed bag MM is the only way to make a MP game appeal to gamer type B. Everyone gets their chance to be the unstoppable shouting viking of death. With tight skill MM nobody ever gets to be the USVOD, ever. That`s not fun for that type of gamer. Tight skill MM creates a Dark Souls like experience. Dark Souls is a niche experience. 

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You can't just make a blanket assumption about the whole company like that.  The guys working on ranking are not the same guys designing maps are not the same guys balancing weapons etc etc etc.  What does map quality have to do with matchmaking and UX?  nothing....

 

Saying "well we shouldn't do this becuase i don't trust the dev to do it right" is a poor way to improve.  

 

And besides, there is nobody on the planet (not hyperbole) that is better at creating ranking and matchmaking systems than Menke.  The fact that 343 is paying for his services and got him away from Activision-Blizzard is saying something.

 

I am talking about 343 as an organization - I'm sure they have plenty of talented employees. The leadership is just shit. 

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Snip

 

I think you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. If player A truly doesn't care about the outcome, then they will never have a sweaty game.

 

The effort that this player A's opponent exerts will have no impact on the effort player A chooses to exert. As a result, player A's MMR will be a reflection of his effort. It would likely be lower than his actual skill. This Means his matches would be filled with people who either match his reduced effort, or have a skill low enough that he can play without sweating.

 

Moral of the story is. If you don't want to try hard... just don't tryhard...

 

The idea that the game will alway put you in tight matches is just false. It has no way of knowing how you"ll or anyone else perform in a given game. It just knows how good you are on average. How you perform is That's up to you. If you constantly try to perform your best, you'll have an Higher MMR. If you don't you won't.

 

Edit: I also disagree that loose MMR matching allows everyone to be "Vikings of death" it just makes lower end players more likely to be a victim of Vikings if death. The best thing to do is have a system that accounts for skill and effort then matchmake within looser parameters.

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I think you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. If player A truly doesn't care about the outcome, then they will never have a sweaty game.

 

The effort that this player A's opponent exerts will have no impact on the effort player A chooses to exert. As a result, player A's MMR will be a reflection of his effort. It would likely be lower than his actual skill. This Means his matches would be filled with people who either match his reduced effort, or have a skill low enough that he can play without sweating.

 

Moral of the story is. If you don't want to try hard... just don't tryhard...

 

And players with this attitude will be more likely to be ranked accurately since there will be a larger total population of players to match, resulting in better matches (and more accurate skill assessments) as a result.

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:uncledrew:

 

I could only imagine spawning into a HCS game against Warzone kids, and I see wasps all of the place.

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