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HCS Pro League Summer 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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So, you're saying that Halo, a game that has traditionally (not so much now) had a HEAVY focus on shooting skill, would not necessarily improve with the addition of controls that allow you to remove console crutches entirely while ALSO allowing you to, for example, actually turn around without playing on a goofy sensitivity that fucks with your ability to aim steadily? The only thing that is necessarily set-up with console in mind are the (broken) aiming and assist mechanics, which would be gone with mouse control. The way these mechanics are presently balanced in this game is a huge factor in the awful weapon sandbox we're currently dealing with.

 

​Still waiting for an argument that doesn't fundamentally come down to nostalgia.

I feel like you're looking at this too simply and perhaps placing a bit too much importance on shooting skill. The changes to the shooting mechanics would cause a cascade of other effects...

 

 

A couple of examples:

 

Long distance encounters are heavily affected by the red reticule range which limits the effective range of your weapon. In H5 this is used to create differences between weapons such as the DMR and Pistol (obviously something you aren't keen on) but it also has implications elsewhere. The effective range on weaponry has a big impact on map design and movement. Moving to PC controls means the RRR is irrelevant and therefore completely removes that limit on the effective range. The difference in difficulty between hitting someone at mid-range and long-range is massively decreased. This means you can much more easily control and contest far larger areas of the map. This is obviously going to have a big impact on the flow of maps with longer sightlines. This would still be the case with a much more simplified sandbox.

 

The sniper would become an absolute monster and ridiculously OP. Hitting a no-scope headshot with the snipe will be just as easy as hitting one with a pistol. You'd probably have to straight up remove the sniper from competitive play because it would just be too powerful. You've got 4 pretty much guaranteed kills at any range with a single clip. 

 

This is more speculative but I think you'd possibly see the shooting skill gap actually decrease within the competitive scene. Perfectly accurate weapons combined with a relatively slow movement and strafe means that once you reach a certain skill level people will very rarely miss. Shooting will be just too easy. The number of reversals would probably decrease because of this. Getting the first shot off in a 1v1 would effectively guarantee the win because you won't miss the following 4. If you look at competitive PC shooters you see they all have ways of avoiding this: CS has spray patterns making shooting far more difficult, Quake (and other fast paced arena shooters) have very high movement speeds, higher health and more of a focus on projectile weapons. 

 

 

Note: I'm not actually arguing that HCS on PC would be worse, I'm saying it might not necessarily be better and it absolutely would be very different, even if they didn't introduce design changes to make Halo fit better on PC.

 

 

Arguing that future Halo titles should also be released on PC in order to tap into that playerbase and audience is a wholly separate argument from saying HCS should switch to KB+M; I don't think many (if any) people would argue against the former. You can do it exactly like CoD does with pulling in PC viewers while also keeping the esport side on console. If you change it you risk losing many existing pros who can't make the change, and you're banking on increased viewership from PC making up for people who stop watching due to their favorite pros no longer playing or something else.

 

Increasing skill and consistency isn't always in-and-of-itself the deciding factor. Remember when the NBA switched to the synthetic ball instead of the leather ball back in 06, which was supposed to increase competition by providing better grip and consistency? The players revolted against it. The end of is if the players don't want it, generally speaking it isn't in the best interest of the league, because the players are your product. Otherwise you're banking on the completely rebooted league doing better, which may not even be necessary if you can get the best of both worlds by keeping the existing pros while also bringing in PC viewership.

Also this.

 

The current pros would not appreciate a switch to PC.

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LMAO, I just saw your Waypoint stats, you were champ 1 in Team Arena? if this guy gets one kill I'll be amazed

 

What you don't realize is @NavG123's Champ 1 was earned by being the first to complete placements when the game was released

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I feel like you're looking at this too simply and perhaps placing a bit too much importance on shooting skill. The changes to the shooting mechanics would cause a cascade of other effects...

 

 

A couple of examples:

 

Long distance encounters are heavily affected by the red reticule range which limits the effective range of your weapon. In H5 this is used to create differences between weapons such as the DMR and Pistol (obviously something you aren't keen on) but it also has implications elsewhere. The effective range on weaponry has a big impact on map design and movement. Moving to PC controls means the RRR is irrelevant and therefore completely removes that limit on the effective range. The difference in difficulty between hitting someone at mid-range and long-range is massively decreased. This means you can much more easily control and contest far larger areas of the map. This is obviously going to have a big impact on the flow of maps with longer sightlines. This would still be the case with a much more simplified sandbox.

 

The sniper would become an absolute monster and ridiculously OP. Hitting a no-scope headshot with the snipe will be just as easy as hitting one with a pistol. You'd probably have to straight up remove the sniper from competitive play because it would just be too powerful. You've got 4 pretty much guaranteed kills at any range with a single clip. 

 

This is more speculative but I think you'd possibly see the shooting skill gap actually decrease within the competitive scene. Perfectly accurate weapons combined with a relatively slow movement and strafe means that once you reach a certain skill level people will very rarely miss. Shooting will be just too easy. The number of reversals would probably decrease because of this. Getting the first shot off in a 1v1 would effectively guarantee the win because you won't miss the following 4. If you look at competitive PC shooters you see they all have ways of avoiding this: CS has spray patterns making shooting far more difficult, Quake (and other fast paced arena shooters) have very high movement speeds, higher health and more of a focus on projectile weapons. 

 

 

Note: I'm not actually arguing that HCS on PC would be worse, I'm saying it might not necessarily be better and it absolutely would be very different, even if they didn't introduce design changes to make Halo fit better on PC.

 

 

Also this.

 

The current pros would not appreciate a switch to PC.

I feel like you haven't tried Halo 5: Forge on PC if you honestly believe some of the things you're saying, especially in regards to your third example.  It's just simply not true.

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What you don't realize is @NavG123's Champ 1 was earned by being the first to complete placements when the game was released

People didn't even know how to spartan charge at that point let alone have appointed a spartan charge God.

 

Nav doesn't stand a chance.

 

OT- put the next Halo on PC pls, not just w10 as well fuck that noise.

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People didn't even know how to spartan charge at that point let alone have appointed a spartan charge God.

 

Nav doesn't stand a chance.

 

OT- put the next Halo on PC pls, not just w10 as well fuck that noise.

Yeah I love the push for play anywhere but the win10 store seems like legit trash.

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Typically people who call other people kids during an argument are usually the ones in need of some maturing. 

 

Says one of two KIDS who made it personal and deflected to how mean I'm apparently being out of an obvious lack of coherent argument to make. You know, the same reason you've shifted to an entirely different discussion about the gameplay problems? And, I assume, the same reason you're willfully misconstruing my point about Summit having more daily viewers than H5 has players on Xbox.

 

 

snip

 

I don't know why you felt the need to give me this detailed break down on mechanics that have absolutely no value in a PC game. You do realize that these aim assists are "console" mechanics and not in any way essential "Halo" mechanics, right? I don't understand why I have to explain that aim assist and bullet magnetism would not exist in a competitive shooter on PC. Why on earth would the sniper still have ludicrous magnetism in a game with mouse aiming? That's a completely pointless scenario.

 

Red reticle range? You have that backwards. So, you remove that and then you have an effective range fully dictated by aim skill instead of an artificial curve created by aim assist (which is a moronic balance approach to begin with). It's already hard to aim at longer ranges INHERENTLY. What RRR does is make closer ranges actually viable with ludicrously imprecise analogue control. Further, the notion that no one would be missing (as if they are in H5 now, aside from wind-milling as a result of the goofball aiming and thrust) is just ludicrous and really makes me question your experience with shooters on PC.

 

 

Arguing that future Halo titles should also be released on PC in order to tap into that playerbase and audience is a wholly separate argument from saying HCS should switch to KB+M because it's more skillful; I don't think many (if any) people would argue against the former. You can do it exactly like CoD does with pulling in PC viewers while also keeping the esport side on console. If you change it you risk losing many existing pros who can't make the change, and you're relying on increased viewership from PC making up for people who stop watching due to their favorite pros no longer playing or something else.

 

Again, this argument treats Halo like it is presently a thriving competitive (or casual) game. If this were the Halo 3 era, you would have more of a point, but it just isn't. It is a game that has a small competitive scene solely because Microsoft is throwing silly amounts of money at a very small number of players. And CoD is both a MUCH larger multiplatform, casual console game and a game where, frankly, shooting skill has never been that huge of a factor. I'm still struggling to see why the competitive community for a shooter that people still want to insist has a large shooting skill gap would be so staunchly opposed to drastically improving the competitive merit of its core mechanics.

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I thought they would have dropped pro league info along with the new playlist

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What you don't realize is @NavG123's Champ 1 was earned by being the first to complete placements when the game was released

 

 

I had noticed that he's also Champ in Arena at this moment (2500+ CSR) so I think it's fair to say he's pretty good at this game

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I feel like you haven't tried Halo 5: Forge on PC if you honestly believe some of the things you're saying, especially in regards to your third example.  It's just simply not true.

Forge on PC has dogshit aiming right? This is kinda based on the idea that you can actually aim with a mouse.

 

Also the third comment was about pro play, I explained it a bit more further down.

 

I don't know why you felt the need to give me this detailed break down on mechanics that have absolutely no value in a PC game. You do realize that these aim assists are "console" mechanics and not in any way essential "Halo" mechanics, right? I don't understand why I have to explain that aim assist and bullet magnetism would not exist in a competitive shooter on PC. Why on earth would the sniper still have ludicrous magnetism in a game with mouse aiming? That's a completely pointless scenario. Red reticle range? You have that backwards. So, you remove that and then you have an effective range fully dictated by aim skill instead of an artificial curve created by aim assist (which is a moronic balance approach to begin with). It's already hard to aim at longer ranges INHERENTLY. What RRR does is make closer ranges actually viable with ludicrously imprecise analogue control. 

I think you just about completely missed the point of my post. I'm explaining that the lack of those mechanics is going to cause significant changes to how Halo is played. 

 

 

 

Further, the notion that no one would be missing (as if they are in H5 now, aside from wind-milling as a result of the goofball aiming and thrust) is just ludicrous and really makes me question your experience with shooters on PC.

Doesn't the bolded completely contradict the rest of this sentence?

 

The point is that Halo isn't a PC shooter, it's designed with analogue stick aiming in mind. Without significantly changing how it's designed the best of the best (ie: the pros) are going to reach a skill ceiling in terms of aiming. The accuracy of a mouse combined with Halo's perfectly precise weapons and slow movement speed is going to make hitting shots very easy for those who are really good at the game.

 

 

Also, not that it's actually relevant, but I've probably got more experience with PC shooters than consoles. I actually briefly competed in TF2. I know how easy it is to be accurate with a mouse because I was really fucking accurate with a mouse (not so much anymore, bit out of practice). What makes hitting shots difficult is unpredictable and fast movement (something Halo lacks) or recoil/spray patterns (also something Halo lacks).

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I had noticed that he's also Champ in Arena at this moment (2500+ CSR) so I think it's fair to say he's pretty good at this game

Against traditional playstyles...

 

Be-Prepared.gif

 

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I feel like you haven't tried Halo 5: Forge on PC if you honestly believe some of the things you're saying, especially in regards to your third example. It's just simply not true.

I feel like you have never played it if you think that KBM aiming in H5 pc is any good. Im sure hes assuming the game would have CS quality aim by that point.

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Again, this argument treats Halo like it is presently a thriving competitive (or casual) game. If this were the Halo 3 era, you would have more of a point, but it just isn't. It is a game that has a small competitive scene solely because Microsoft is throwing silly amounts of money at a very small number of players. And CoD is both a MUCH larger multiplatform, casual console game and a game where, frankly, shooting skill has never been that huge of a factor. I'm still struggling to see why the competitive community for a shooter that people still want to insist has a large shooting skill gap would be so staunchly opposed to drastically improving the competitive merit of its core mechanics.

 

Halo has population problems because it have been dumped on by developers... putting it on PC does not solve the developer problem.

 

I'm sure you agree and think that the move to PC is just the first step to solving many problems but I disagree.

 

Halo needs developers that care, LAN and split screen to start. There are plenty of xbox one's in people's living rooms, just nothing to play. PC kids would have laughed H5 out the door had it lunched on PC too. Summit just has a soft spot for Halo like pretty much anyone born before 1999 that would call themselves a gamer.

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I feel like you haven't tried Halo 5: Forge on PC if you honestly believe some of the things you're saying, especially in regards to your third example. It's just simply not true.

Nah, kbm controls are just fucked in h5:forge

 

To maintain any sort of skill gap the weapons system would have to be completely reworked for PC. I dont think they'd have to remove weapons, but they'd have to rethink how they handle effective range- probably by going 100 percent projectile w/ gravity and momentum

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GUYS THERE IS A NEEDLER ON THE RIG 343 IS LYING DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS

BOYCOTT HCS UNTIL NEEDLER IS ON ALL MAPS

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