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CyReN

HCS Pro League Summer 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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The idea that the game will alway put you in tight matches is just false. It has no way of knowing how you"ll or anyone else perform in a given game. It just knows how good you are on average. How you perform is That's up to you. If you constantly try to perform your best, you'll have an Higher MMR. If you don't you won't.

It really isn't that crazy of a claim. I'm sure menke had a part in this too (since SC2 was the same way) They do make your games near 50% as possible. Here are the quick play games in OW between me and 3 other people I play with. 

 

6hcJtfl.jpg

 

In Quick play if I'm trying to work on a hero, I will usually stick to the same hero the entire match instead of adapting to who I'm playing. I'll still try to win by doing as well as I can with them but I don't really care if I get the W or L. Or I'll switch to a more fun hero if I'm with buddies. I'll tryhard if I'm about to play comp and I want to warm up in QP beforehand. But really there is no trends in my personal experience really. Not for a single MMR rating.

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I think you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. If player A truly doesn't care about the outcome, then they will never have a sweaty game.

 

The effort that this player A's opponent exerts will have no impact on the effort player A chooses to exert. As a result, player A's MMR will be a reflection of his effort. It would likely be lower than his actual skill. This Means his matches would be filled with people who either match his reduced effort, or have a skill low enough that he can play without sweating.

 

Moral of the story is. If you don't want to try hard... just don't tryhard...

 

The idea that the game will alway put you in tight matches is just false. It has no way of knowing how you"ll or anyone else perform in a given game. It just knows how good you are on average. How you perform is That's up to you. If you constantly try to perform your best, you'll have an Higher MMR. If you don't you won't.

 

Edit: I also disagree that loose MMR matching allows everyone to be "Vikings of death" it just makes lower end players more likely to be a victim of Vikings if death. The best thing to do is have a system that accounts for skill and effort then matchmake within looser parameters.

I never said a casual player doesn`t care. I don`t know why you keep saying that.

 

A casual player simply enjoys a different type of experience. A different cadence of challenge.

 

I think it ridiculous how so many people think casual gamers are braindead morons who have no idea what they like and dislike and will enjoy anything.

 

Loose skill matching allows even low skilled players to occasionally have great games. Where a game like Halo struggles is giving the very, very low skilled players this feeling. Other games have features like supers or care packages, etc that give even the lowest of the low a shot at feeling powerful and awesome.

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:fire:  :intensifies::fire:   :intensifies::fire:   :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:

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:fire:  :intensifies::fire:   :intensifies::fire:   :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:  :intensifies:  :fire:

 

extremely excited to get first rounded then spend the next 2.5 days heckling @@LethuL

 

it works real well! i gave him shit at two events he was favored to win and he lost. more people should try it

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True social MM is one of the BIGGEST things H5 is missing, and is probably a big reason why the population is shit. Remember launch where EVERYTHING was ranked? Remember when they first added social and it was literally ranked with invisible ranks? Social is a staple in videogames because it's a VIDEOGAME mainly played FOR FUN. There needs to be a way to just match whoever and let people sometimes feel the sweet, sweet joy of going +10. As Ori said that feeling is important for getting people hooked. No one likes social playlists that are the EXACT SAME THING as ranked. Seriously, if we had actual social playlists wait times would be cut in half.

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It really isn't that crazy of a claim. I'm sure menke had a part in this too (since SC2 was the same way) They do make your games near 50% as possible. Here are the quick play games in OW between me and 3 other people I play with.

 

6hcJtfl.jpg

 

In Quick play if I'm trying to work on a hero, I will usually stick to the same hero the entire match instead of adapting to who I'm playing. I'll still try to win by doing as well as I can with them but I don't really care if I get the W or L. Or I'll switch to a more fun hero if I'm with buddies. I'll tryhard if I'm about to play comp and I want to warm up in QP beforehand. But really there is no trends in my personal experience really. Not for a single MMR rating.

The aim of Ranked is to give you a 50% probability of winning with your MMR being an approximation of how skillful the system thinks you are at the time.

 

But if your team doesn't live up to its potential, or greatly exceeds it, your margin of victory could be a poor indicator of the quality of the matchup.

 

The system has no idea what the score will be, only what the outcome will probably be. It then readjusts everyone's MMR based on whether it's prediction was correct (meaning it expects to be proven wrong).

 

You can have the wild outcomes expected in social whilst still using MMR to aim for 50% probabilities. For example. Team two high level player with some scrubs and match them against some average players. The system could calculate a 50% chance of winning, but individual performances would be all over the place.

 

Anyway, how you do you distinguish trying to win from not caring if you win or lose? You obviously care enough to try to win, rather than just fucking off. If your effort is less than that of when you are playing ranked, then your social MMR would reflect that.

 

The key to a social list playing like a social list isn't just turning each match into the wild Wild West of skill levels. It's allowing players to not care (removing penalties, not tracking stats, etc). If a player is putting in high effort all the time, that's his own fault, not the MM. if you play relaxed you'll get chill opponents.

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The aim of Ranked is to give you a 50% probability of winning with your MMR being an approximation of how skillful the system thinks you are at the time.

 

But if your team doesn't live up to its potential, or greatly exceeds it, your margin of victory could be a poor indicator of the quality of the matchup.

 

The system has no idea what the score will be, only what the outcome will probably be. It then readjusts everyone's MMR based on whether it's prediction was correct (meaning it expects to be proven wrong).

 

Anyway, how you do you distinguish trying to win from not caring if you win or lose? You obviously care enough to try to win, rather than just fucking off. If your effort is less than that of when you are playing ranked, then your social MMR would reflect that.

 

The key to a social list playing like a social list isn't just turning each match into the wild Wild West of skill levels. It's allowing players to not care (removing penalties, not tracking stats, etc). If a player is putting in high effort all the time, that's his own fault, not the MM. if you play relaxed you'll get chill opponents.

You're still not getting it.

 

If you play relaxed you'l get opponents of equal skill to you playing in that state. That still is not enjoyable.

 

Fun, true social MM does employ "wild west skill matching"

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You're still not getting it.

 

If you play relaxed you'l get opponents of equal skill to you playing in that state. That still is not enjoyable.

No.

 

You'll get a mix of opponents playing relaxed at equal skill, opponents who are lesser skilled but trying hard and perhaps even opponents who are way more skilled, but spend the whole game practicing skill jumps.

 

you'll also have looser MMR restrictions so your actual teams would potentially be made up of people with skills and effort levels different from your own.

 

And again, even if The whole match ends up being people who are equal skilled, it's you who chooses how much effort to put in. It circles back to whether you are trying to win or if you are just relaxing.

 

Edit: no halo game ever had true wild Wild West in social. So I guess social was never fun.

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No.

 

You'll get a mix of opponents playing relaxed at equal skill, opponents who are lesser skilled but trying hard and perhaps even opponents who are way more skilled, but spend the whole game practicing skill jumps.

 

you'll also have looser MMR restrictions so your actual teams would potentially be made up of people with skills and effort levels different from your own.

 

And again, even if The whole match ends up being people who are equal skilled, it's you who chooses how much effort to put in. It circles back to whether you are trying to win or if you are just relaxing.

 

Edit: no halo game ever had true wild Wild West in social. So I guess social was never fun.

Apperently you never played h3?

 

Any given social match could be 2 parties of four 50s going at or one 50 teamed up with a force colonel and two legit level 10s vs 3 major grade 8s and a guest.

 

Mm fluctuated all over the place.

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The aim of Ranked is to give you a 50% probability of winning with your MMR being an approximation of how skillful the system thinks you are at the time.

 

But if your team doesn't live up to its potential, or greatly exceeds it, your margin of victory could be a poor indicator of the quality of the matchup.

 

The system has no idea what the score will be, only what the outcome will probably be. It then readjusts everyone's MMR based on whether it's prediction was correct (meaning it expects to be proven wrong).

 

You can have the wild outcomes expected in social whilst still using MMR to aim for 50% probabilities. For example. Team two high level player with some scrubs and match them against some average players. The system could calculate a 50% chance of winning, but individual performances would be all over the place.

 

Anyway, how you do you distinguish trying to win from not caring if you win or lose? You obviously care enough to try to win, rather than just fucking off. If your effort is less than that of when you are playing ranked, then your social MMR would reflect that.

 

The key to a social list playing like a social list isn't just turning each match into the wild Wild West of skill levels. It's allowing players to not care (removing penalties, not tracking stats, etc). If a player is putting in high effort all the time, that's his own fault, not the MM. if you play relaxed you'll get chill opponents.

 

In ranked if I lose a close match or lose several matches, I will feel bad. In QP even if I'm trying to win and I lose, I do not care in the slightest. Game doesn't matter, stats don't matter, whether I'm playing relaxed, trying hard or otherwise. It has zero effect on my MMR or my teammates MMR or my opponents MMR. Now in OW(and H5 I believe) you only rank up if you win the match. Your MMR may go up, but your actual rank will go down by losing. This is what is called ELO hell. If you can't rally your team to win or get a leaver/thrower, you will just keep losing. 

 

In OW, communication is key especially to pull the baddies up a level of play so you can rank up. Now in Halo, comms are also important. But if you run into someone who just doesn't feel like talking or taking it as seriously that game because they are in social, you are SOL. 

 

It has always been universal, if you want to take it seriously, play ranked. You give no real incentive to the social player to elevate their play if they are lax that game. 

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Apperently you never played h3?

 

Any given social match could be 2 parties of four 50s going at or one 50 teamed up with a force colonel and two legit level 10s vs 3 major grade 8s and a guest.

 

Mm fluctuated all over the place.

Loose MMR restrictions. Still tracked and considered MMR when making matches...

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In ranked if I lose a close match or lose several matches, I will feel bad. In QP even if I'm trying to win and I lose, I do not care in the slightest. Game doesn't matter, stats don't matter, whether I'm playing relaxed, trying hard or otherwise. It has zero effect on my MMR or my teammates MMR or my opponents MMR. Now in OW(and H5 I believe) you only rank up if you win the match. Your MMR may go up, but your actual rank will go down by losing. This is what is called ELO hell. If you can't rally your team to win or get a leaver/thrower, you will just keep losing.

 

In OW, communication is key especially to pull the baddies up a level of play so you can rank up. Now in Halo, comms are also important. But if you run into someone who just doesn't feel like talking or taking it as seriously that game because they are in social, you are SOL.

 

It has always been universal, if you want to take it seriously, play ranked. You give no real incentive to the social player to elevate their play if they are lax that game.

There's no "incentive" to elevate play in H5 social. No one can see their MMR rising. People just choose to do it because they are tryhards. Then they complain about sweaty matches when they are the cause of their own sweaty matches.
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You're still not getting it.

 

If you play relaxed you'l get opponents of equal skill to you playing in that state. That still is not enjoyable.

 

Fun, true social MM does employ "wild west skill matching"

 

No, you're not getting it.  

 

to give people this type of experience you utilize the matchmaker.

 

Quote from one of Josh's weekly updates:

 

 

My personal feeling on this, which I think agrees somewhat with the comments in the thread, is to give a mix of both types of matches. Some really tight, some really loose, which perhaps making the proportion somewhat depend on your skill. We have to be careful with that though because it’s really easy to spike wait times. This approach is on my current list of things to try in the somewhat near future. I would make some matches much tighter than they are today, and some possibly much looser. That way, everyone gets what they want, some of the time, and there’s also a nice variety.

 

Basically getting social tuned right so you have a good mix of close and loose games in either direction is something that the matchmaking system should be set to do purposefully.  that way you can say "ok this set of players just got stomped 2 games in a row.  we're going to keep the search parameters tigher for this round" and so on.  People still get a variety of matches, while also preventing the long runs of deep losses.

 

THe feeling to the player can be the same effect that you think removing all restrictions would achieve (it wouldnt) while allowing the "net" impact of a night of playing feel fair.

 

And this is an excellent explanation of why there needs to be some sort of skill based matching in every list, its just the tightness that get dialed up and down, https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/58b8518e005f432381ab99fbcaf931e0/topics/matchmaking-feedback-update-%E2%80%93-june-5/717673b1-9ec6-4efd-831a-abf3a56479e4/posts

 

Basically, you are not the only person playing the list and you are wrong about the PoV of "most" players.  The fact is the PoV for the entire player base is all over the place and the system needs to purposefully compensate for that and not just leave it to chance.

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Loose MMR restrictions. Still tracked and considered MMR when making matches...

 

Loose being the important word there.

 

H5's social restriction d

are way too strict and that seems to be the way menke likes it.

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No, you're not getting it.

 

to give people this type of experience you utilize the matchmaker.

 

Quote from one of Josh's weekly updates:

 

 

Basically getting social tuned right so you have a good mix of close and loose games in either direction is something that the matchmaking system should be set to do purposefully. that way you can say "ok this set of players just got stomped 2 games in a row. we're going to keep the search parameters tigher for this round" and so on. People still get a variety of matches, while also preventing the long runs of deep losses.

 

THe feeling to the player can be the same effect that you think removing all restrictions would achieve (it wouldnt) while allowing the "net" impact of a night of playing feel fair.

 

And this is an excellent explanation of why there needs to be some sort of skill based matching in every list, its just the tightness that get dialed up and down, https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/58b8518e005f432381ab99fbcaf931e0/topics/matchmaking-feedback-update-%E2%80%93-june-5/717673b1-9ec6-4efd-831a-abf3a56479e4/posts

 

Basically, you are not the only person playing the list and you are wrong about the PoV of "most" players. The fact is the PoV for the entire player base is all over the place and the system needs to purposefully compensate for that and not just leave it to chance.

Destiny already does this. People absoluety despise it.

 

Quitting becomes epidemic when you know right after having a great game that the following game you're going to be thrown into a sweat fest or a game that you're supposed to lose.

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There's no "incentive" to elevate play in H5 social. No one can see their MMR rising. People just choose to do it because they are tryhards. Then they complain about sweaty matches when they are the cause of their own sweaty matches.

I was elaborating on why it'd be difficult for the ranked player to create incentive for the social player to step up in the event that they need him to. 

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I wonder if TMMT knows about these sites?   I thought they retained EXCLUSIVE rights to e-sports betting?

 

ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT WAS A LIE?!

 

EXCLUSIVE TO NORTH AMERICA. IF IT EVER LAUNCHES

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I was elaborating on why it'd be difficult for the ranked player to create incentive for the social player to step up in the event that they need him to.

Sorry, I'm mixed up between responses. Are we talking about the effects of joining ranked and social? If so:

 

In the event a social player gets pulled into your Ranked match, it would mean that the system has decided that his MMR is competitive with everyone else in the match. He obtained that MMR because that's the level of performance he routinely gives. Whether that's his peak performance, or how he performs when he's slacking is irrelevant- that's the level he plays at. He doesn't need additional motivation.

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Twitter rant on the released schedule info for Dreamhack Atlanta.   :stern:

 

6-7 more tweets after the initial one. 

 

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Loose being the important word there.

 

H5's social restriction d

are way too strict and that seems to be the way menke likes it.

This is what I mean when I say higher skilled players are projecting, and assuming that everyone else likes playing with them.

 

Loose matchmaking is more fun for higher skilled players than lower skilled players

 

If you are a good player, matchmaking tightly on skill turns a dial between two options:

* No skill matchmaking:

dan * Faster matchmaking

dan * You get lots of kills

dan * You get terrible teammates

dan * If you want to kill, you don’t need to sweat

dan * If you want to win, you DO need to sweat

* Tight MMR matchmaking

dan * Slower matchmaking

dan * Better teammates

dan * Not as many kills

dan * If you want to kill, you really need to sweat

dan * If you want to win, you need to try, but you don’t have to carry your team

 

The looser the matchmaking, the more likely you will have a bunch of noobs in your match that you can own for fun.

 

BUT, when it’s looser, it’s also more and more likely that you are by far the best player in the match.

 

If you are the best player in the match, then the team balancer must stack all the worst players on your team to prevent a blowout between teams.

 

When the matchmaking is tighter, everyone is about the same skill in the match. This means the burden won’t be as hard on you as a player to carry your team. But, it also means you aren’t going to rack up the kills, and should expect closer to 1.0 K/D.

 

If you are an average player, the overall experience is about the same with and without skill-based matchmaking. One difference is without skill matching, you will have some players who own you in a match, and some who you own. Matchmaking times don’t change much:

* No skill matchmaking: Each match has a variety of players better and worse than you. Some you do well against, some destroy you.

* High-skill matchmaking: Less variety. You do about the same each match. You don’t get owned much, but you also don’t get to destroy noobs.

* If you want to win, it’s about the same either way.

 

If you are a bad player, the game gets painful if there’s no skill matching, though wait times get longer if there is:

* No skill matching: every game is painful, you will die a lot. You will still win about half your matches because of team balancing, but you won’t feel like you contributed much.

* Skill matching: games are about the same. You also feel you can help your team win. You won’t get a ton of kills, but you’ll get some and do OK.

 

 

If you really want social to be fun for everyone, then the system has to have a an ability to know how skilled individual players are and what kinds of matches they had, and match accordingly.

 

Failing that tight matchmaking makes it more enjoyable for more people as average players don't see much of a difference either way and lower end players aren't getting shit on every match.

 

Having a system that starts tight-ish then loosens up over time, should give high skilled players the breather they need. I think it perhaps just starts a bit too tight.

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